A single Borg cube in the Stargate Milky way galaxy...

[darth_timon]

I've been inspired by the similar thread about the Ori to create this thread. Now it's not strictly a VS thread saying how many Ha'taks would it take to bring down a Borg cube etc...It's a question of how would a Borg cube fare in the MW, how the galaxy would handle a Borg incursion, how would they resist assimilation, would staff weapons be effective etc...

Basically these are the rules or guidelines;
- It is after the fall of the Ori so no Ori.
- It is the Milky Way so no Wraith or Asurans or Replicators of any kind.
- No saying we send in the Odyssey or a fleet of Ha'taks and blow them up (this thread is about analysis step by step).
- No ascended beings

A dimensional rift opens and a Borg cube enters the milky way galaxy. It appears in a inhabited system with a single habited planet with 5000 humans. The planet is assimilated and they learn of the Stargate and known gate addresses to the locals. The Borg also learn of the Jaffa and Goa'uld as well as the Tau'ri and the fallen Ori.

What happens next.

It probably would not be long before the Borg stumble across a world inhabited by Jaffa, and initially, drones get killed by the staff weapons and zats. The Borg should be able to adapt to these weapons in short order, so the surviving Jaffa retreat and word gets back to the SGC about some strange 'half Replicator, half man' creatures causing trouble. SG1 gets dispatched to investigate, and it's not long before they engage the Borg on the ground. First Contact showed pretty conclusively that the Borg can't adapt to Kinetic Energy )Worf and Data killing drones with knifes and hands, Picard killing drones with bullets), so IMHO, SG1 are able to kill drones with their P90s and other weapons. The sheer number of drones by this point may drive SG1 back, which is unfortunate from their point of view, because to get any intel, they would need to capture a drone or gain access to a Borg computer station of some kind.

The Jaffa might well decide to simply irradiate all Borg on their worlds by bombarding them from orbit. This could quite possibly get the attention of the cube, which comes along to investigate.

In a one-on-one engagement with an Ha'tak, the cube would stand more than a fair chance of winning. By my own meagre maths skills, I've worked out from Beach Head that an Ha'tak can fire a minimum of 360MT per shot, at around 1 shot per second (which is actually not true, an Ha'tak can fire faster than that). That works out to 21.6GT per minute. If 300 Fed ships engaged the cube in First Contact, and they all got off 150 64MT torpedoes before being destroyed, that would equate to 2,880GT. For the sake of this discussion, I'll call that the minimum firepower needed to damage the cube, since it was clearly taking damage in First Contact win the Enterprise showed up.

One hour of continuous fire from one Ha'tak would work out at 1,296GT. Two Ha'taks in an hour could deliver 2,592GT. Therefore, to equal the feat of the Federation fleet in First Contact, you'd need a minimum of three Ha'taks, all firing one shot per second for an hour.

Of course, initially the Borg would not have adapted to Ha'tak weaponry and would suffer damage immediately. This would count to the Ha'tak's favour, but the Jaffa have not shown particularly great tactical skill, so they would probably not withdraw even after the Borg adapted. It is however, more than likely that the Jaffa would consider ramming the cube if they felt they had no other choice, at which point this scenario is over pretty quickly!

If it's not a Jaffa vessel that shows up, but instead the Oydessy, complete with her Asgard weapons and ZPM-powered shields, the cube is toast. We're talking about a ship powerful enough to defeat Ori vessels. We're talking about a ship that could still launch powerful nuclear warheads measuring in the hundreds of gigatons, or even beam such a nuke onto the cube. At which point bye bye Borg.

[wise one]

a borg cube can hold like hunreds of thousands(i think) unleash even some of them, they would be nocticed in a second and jaffa will investigate and shoot them, borg will adapt and assimilate the jaffa and add to their army, which at that point most worlds are jaffa and would by the borg quickly assimilate them.


i wondering what replicators will do against the borg, since they are alike, the replicators would over run the borg troops and would go for the cube and repliacate their numbers in that

[Buba uognarf]

[QUOTE]

The E-D blew significant holes in the first Cube they met. With their phasers, which are less powerful than the torps, but much more accurate and have strange effects associated to them.

The Borg weren't as advanced back then they've advanced significantly since that encounter it's doubtful the Ha'tak weapons would be as effective. Maybe if it encountered the Cube in 'Q who' but we know even in the space of a year the Borg had advanced considerably (7 of 9 said this to the queen). Also in the episode the Photon torpedo's which are probably similar in yield to a Ha'taks weapons were useless immediately.

When you apply these conditions to a Ha'tak, with its weapons at the very least rated in the 200 MT, it would deal critical strikes, and the Cube would go down quickly.
And I'm not even talking about the ha'tak's shields, which the Cube's weapons will have hard time to bring down.

The Borg cube in FC withstood the combined fire from an entire fleet of federation ships over a prolonged period of time, it's safe to say it can take a few 200 megaton hits. Goa'uld weapons also strike me as being pure brute force thus easy to adapt too though this is speculation either way the Ha'tak weapons are going to be rendered pretty useless in a short space of time.

Federation ships like the ones in FC have shields rated at at least a few hundred megatons, a Borg cube can rip these apart in a single hit it's more than capable of taking down a Ha'tak. Plus we know shields in stargate are weaker against sustained beams the Borg can fire a continuous beam and burn a hole through the shields.

Really, the Borg's best chance is to play it low, run very cautious infestation missions through stargates, acquire as much tech as possible from easy targets, scale the tech up, notably by using naqahdah and bigger assets, and then, and only then, launch a heavy invasion.

That would be a good plan as a borg cube can't take on the entire MW fleets however in ground combat the Jaffa are pretty screwed as the Borg will spread fast and their weapons will be useless.

But again, pretty much all Free Jaffa communicate with each other. Everytime something bad, weird or suspicious happened to a free Jaffa planet, the whole community was in the know, and it wasn't late after that that the Tau'ri was informed as well.

It would take long for the Borg to spread capture ships etc...An example would be a Jaffa world is assimilated they capture a Tel'tak. A Ha'tak arrives in orbit to investigate, Borg ring over and assimilate.

The Borg can jam beaming, IF it works similarly to trek transporters and first the cubes shields would have to be taken down.

[Mister Oragahn]

It probably would not be long before the Borg stumble across a world inhabited by Jaffa, and initially, drones get killed by the staff weapons and zats. The Borg should be able to adapt to these weapons in short order, so the surviving Jaffa retreat and word gets back to the SGC about some strange 'half Replicator, half man' creatures causing trouble. SG1 gets dispatched to investigate, and it's not long before they engage the Borg on the ground.

Yes, that's the picture.

First Contact showed pretty conclusively that the Borg can't adapt to Kinetic Energy )Worf and Data killing drones with knifes and hands, Picard killing drones with bullets), so IMHO, SG1 are able to kill drones with their P90s and other weapons.

The bullets were holograms, and thus far the Borg were never attacked with holograms. So it is correct that good old fashioned weapons kill them, but the First Contact bullet demo thing is more a myth than anything else.
This is not evidence to support real bullets killing drones.
But there's enough evidence to know that they'd work anyway.

The sheer number of drones by this point may drive SG1 back, which is unfortunate from their point of view, because to get any intel, they would need to capture a drone or gain access to a Borg computer station of some kind.

They can still spend a good load of time and read the DHD control crystals.

The Jaffa might well decide to simply irradiate all Borg on their worlds by bombarding them from orbit. This could quite possibly get the attention of the cube, which comes along to investigate.

Yes, they would do that if they can't defeat them on the ground. Especially if villages have already been lost.

In a one-on-one engagement with an Ha'tak, the cube would stand more than a fair chance of winning.

Nope, see why:

By my own meagre maths skills, I've worked out from Beach Head that an Ha'tak can fire a minimum of 360MT per shot, at around 1 shot per second (which is actually not true, an Ha'tak can fire faster than that).

Precisely. They fired faster than that in Beachhead, iirc.

That works out to 21.6GT per minute. If 300 Fed ships engaged the cube in First Contact, and they all got off 150 64MT torpedoes before being destroyed, that would equate to 2,880GT. For the sake of this discussion, I'll call that the minimum firepower needed to damage the cube, since it was clearly taking damage in First Contact win the Enterprise showed up.
One hour of continuous fire from one Ha'tak would work out at 1,296GT. Two Ha'taks in an hour could deliver 2,592GT. Therefore, to equal the feat of the Federation fleet in First Contact, you'd need a minimum of three Ha'taks, all firing one shot per second for an hour.

It can't be the minimum power needed. It's already too far, because you're assuming all ships were firing at the same time, and had time to fire all of their torpedos.
This is a big mistake.
Even more, the Borg were regenerating their structure. Now consider that you have to dilute the (even already too high) firepower figure you got by the time, that is, at least one hour, and you get 48 gigatons per minute.
That's again based on a figure where all ships fired all their torps.
Considering that most UFP ships didn't last long, that's a preposterous claim. I'd be even surprised if they managed to fire 1/3 of their stock each.
We saw many ships used phasers.

Even with 200 MT per second for a ha'tak, you get 12 GT per minute.
Considering that what you got is an inflated high end for the Borg Cube, then you'll have to accept the inflated high end for the ha'tak, with weapons in the low gigaton range, and shields in the several hundreds of gigatons.
Which in the end, toasts the Cube in no time. It won't even have time to think about adapting.

The rest is history. If there's more than a ha'tak, or other ships such as the Odyssey, or upgraded 303s, the Cube can kiss my a$$ goodbye.
Asgard/Tau'ri tech is clearly the less likely to fall in Borg hands by the way. It's cleverly defended, heavily defended, and focused on a world that has enough glowy bits to waste a whole fleet.
If the alliance of Tau'ri and Jaffa managed to capture a couple of Ori ships, it's just as bad for the Cube.

[Buba uognarf]

It can't be the minimum power needed. It's already too far, because you're assuming all ships were firing at the same time, and had time to fire all of their torpedos.
This is a big mistake.
Even more, the Borg were regenerating their structure. Now consider that you have to dilute the (even already too high) firepower figure you got by the time, that is, at least one hour, and you get 48 gigatons per minute.
That's again based on a figure where all ships fired all their torps.
Considering that most UFP ships didn't last long, that's a preposterous claim. I'd be even surprised if they managed to fire 1/3 of their stock each.
We saw many ships used phasers.

The Borg have only been shown to regenerate once in all of the 20 episodes they've featured in. It's like the zats 3 shot disintegrates thing, you can't assume the cube was regenerating throughout the battle.

Ok I'll do some calculations of my own. Assuming the cube engaged 150 federation ships and each ship managed on average to let off only 5 torpedo's at the conservative yield of 100 megatons the cube would have absorbed 75 gigatons of firepower. Now the cube was still almost completely intact with damage only to it's outer hull so the real number is likely to be much higher. If we factor in say 300 20 megaton phaser hits we get a damage rating of at least 81 megatons. Now this is me being conservative with Torpedo yields.

Even with 200 MT per second for a ha'tak, you get 12 GT per minute.
Considering that what you got is an inflated high end for the Borg Cube, then you'll have to accept the inflated high end for the ha'tak, with weapons in the low gigaton range, and shields in the several hundreds of gigatons.
Which in the end, toasts the Cube in no time. It won't even have time to think about adapting.

Hundreds of gigatons rofl. You've hardly presented an inflated high end for the Borg cube I'll do some more calculations. I'll once again be generous and assume the Borg cube fought the same fleet but this time faced torpedo's in the range of 500 megatons this is btw not too absurd especially compared to your hundreds of gigaton Ha'tak figures. The fleet still fires on average 5 per ship and a total of 300 this time 50 megaton phaser hits. This time we get a total of 390 gigatons and the cube being able to dish out low gigatons of firepower. The cube was still not destroyed by this point in time so the real number could be much higher.

We've never seen anything to suggest gigaton level weaponry from the Goa'uld let alone hundreds of gigatons of shielding which would give them weapons in the 10+ gigaton range. You may discount examples of 500 megaton level federation torpedo's but at least we have some examples to debate you have no examples so you can't expect me to buy or accept that Ha'taks fire gigaton level shots. All you have are claims of Naquadah's absurd power and an example of a Ha'tak sitting next to a sun, it's not enough to claim a Ha'tak can withstand hundreds of gigs worth of energy.

Sorry if i'm coming across as rude btw I'm not trying to be lol. I'm saying this now so that this doesn't become ugly lol.

The rest is history. If there's more than a ha'tak, or other ships such as the Odyssey, or upgraded 303s, the Cube can kiss my a$$ goodbye.
Asgard/Tau'ri tech is clearly the less likely to fall in Borg hands by the way. It's cleverly defended, heavily defended, and focused on a world that has enough glowy bits to waste a whole fleet.
If the alliance of Tau'ri and Jaffa managed to capture a couple of Ori ships, it's just as bad for the Cube.

Ori and the Odyssey I'd accept as being able to take down a cube but that's if it doesn't adapt or they don't destroy another ship first and give the Borg time to analyze it. Earth would be too difficult to take down without the support of a fleet agreed.

[Enzo Aquarius]

Haven't been by this place for a bit, but this topic caught my eye after watching "Adrift".

The strength of the Borg at the start of the event would be based purely on the location as to which they appear. If the Cube spawns over a populated world (with a Stargate) that has had no contact with the Tau'ri or other allies, then they'll have a good start. If they appear over a Jaffa/Tok'ra/Tau'ri/ally base, then the Borg will likely be detected early.

Next, the Borg will want to make their own collective to assimilate the wealth of knowledge from this new universe (then eventually take the information back to the Star Trek universe). They'll set up a base of operations (most likely on the planet with the Cube remaining in orbit to guard) and start investigating the Stargate.

The Stargate itself, is technology, so the Borg will assimilate it. By doing this, they can receive all the information on how it works, naquadah, and addresses. Once they have this, they can start exploring other worlds to assimilate more drones and gather resources to build up their base and start a fleet (ala "Regeneration", the Enterprise episode). Once they come upon a Tau'ri or Tau'ri ally, this is where things start to roll.

If a Borg comes upon a Jaffa planet, they will likely attack the Borg. The first few drones who appear can be taken care of by staff weapons, zats and taks, but they'll adapt and easily assimilate the Jaffa settlement. If this settlement has a Ha'tak or other vessels, all the better for the Borg: The fleet begins.

Now, since I don't have much time to type this, here's something to contemplate: Borg nanoprobes are quite small, about the size of a red blood cell. The nanoprobes may be able to fit between the small space between Earth's iris and the Stargate's event horizon. If these nanoprobes could take apart the iris, Earth would have a problem indeed. Unfortunately, it is not known if Borg can adapt to bullets.

[Mister Oragahn]

The Borg have only been shown to regenerate once in all of the 20 episodes they've featured in. It's like the zats 3 shot disintegrates thing, you can't assume the cube was regenerating throughout the battle.

We've seen a Cube do it, and all nanites are able to replicate. I don't see why a Cube couldn't do it.

Ok I'll do some calculations of my own. Assuming the cube engaged 150 federation ships and each ship managed on average to let off only 5 torpedo's at the conservative yield of 100 megatons the cube would have absorbed 75 gigatons of firepower.

Why 150 ships?

Why is 100 megatons per photon torp even conservative?

Now the cube was still almost completely intact with damage only to it's outer hull so the real number is likely to be much higher. If we factor in say 300 20 megaton phaser hits we get a damage rating of at least 81 megatons. Now this is me being conservative with Torpedo yields.

...

Hundreds of gigatons rofl. You've hardly presented an inflated high end for the Borg cube I'll do some more calculations.

I don't understand your sentence.
Besides, the reasons behind the inflated figure are simple. You assumed the best conditions to get the highest figures possible for the Cube. Plenty of ships, all firing their full complement of torpedoes.

That would be like if I took the rate of fire seen in Camelot and Homecoming, and assumed a minimal yield of 200 MT per shot, which would give me a couple of gigatons in less than 5 seconds.

I'll once again be generous and assume the Borg cube fought the same fleet but this time faced torpedo's in the range of 500 megatons this is btw not too absurd especially compared to your hundreds of gigaton Ha'tak figures.

How are 500 MT for torps not too absurd? A non canonical, but still well documented guide, had p-torps at 64 MT each. Calcs by fans make them fly between 8 and 120 megatons.

If you arbitrarily decide to use 500 MT for the torps, me boosting the figure five times as well as just as fair and equal.

The fleet still fires on average 5 per ship and a total of 300 this time 50 megaton phaser hits.

Just where are you getting your ship numbers from? The Federation space, IIRC, is roughly 8000 LY wide. Trek hyperdrives aren't that marvellous. How so many ships could all get there within an hour or a bit more?

This time we get a total of 390 gigatons and the cube being able to dish out low gigatons of firepower. The cube was still not destroyed by this point in time so the real number could be much higher.

Which is meaningless because you're increasing the numbers arbitrarily.
I've seen calcs at SB.com which had the ha'taks fire gigatons per bolt, and shields nearing the teraton range.
Way more than what the wanked out Cube you present could ever hope to handle.

We've never seen anything to suggest gigaton level weaponry from the Goa'uld let alone hundreds of gigatons of shielding which would give them weapons in the 10+ gigaton range.

Completely overgenerous calcs based on Beachhead, for example. I didn't agree with them, they're complete fanwank, just as the cases you build up out of nowhere, as a matter of fact.

You may discount examples of 500 megaton level federation torpedo's but at least we have some examples to debate you have no examples so you can't expect me to buy or accept that Ha'taks fire gigaton level shots. All you have are claims of Naquadah's absurd power and an example of a Ha'tak sitting next to a sun, it's not enough to claim a Ha'tak can withstand hundreds of gigs worth of energy.

For those who can do the maths, yes, it does give shielding with a total of several gigatons.

Even, say, that the ha'tak only had a total of 17 GT of shielding. In Company of Thieves, the bounty hunters' ha'tak was destroyed after 16 seconds of non intensive bombardment (ROF of 1 shot / 2s).

That's 2.125 gigatons per bolt for Latan's ship. More than 1 GT if you go with a ROF of 1 bolt/second (which was not the case).

Latan's ship didn't loose her shields, even after 1:24 seconds of bombardment at a similar ROF of 1 bolt/ 2 seconds. That's a total of 42 bolts.
At 200 MT, at the very least, that puts Latan's ha'tak's shields at 84 gigatons and not failing at all.

As for the claims regarding naqahdah's absurd power, I've been doing nothing more than simply stating what was said and shown in the show, nothing more.
If you're going to deny the show, it is your problem, but you also concede the point in the same turn.

Amount of naqahdah bumping a 335-350 KT nuke into a +1,000,000 KT Goa'uld buster.



Raw naqahdah by the way.

Ha'taks run on tons and tons of refined naqahdah.
Again, the show.


Finally, where are your examples of p-torps at 500 MT each exactly?

Sorry if i'm coming across as rude btw I'm not trying to be lol. I'm saying this now so that this doesn't become ugly lol.

A bit less of rofl behind each line would help.

Ori and the Odyssey I'd accept as being able to take down a cube but that's if it doesn't adapt or they don't destroy another ship first and give the Borg time to analyze it. Earth would be too difficult to take down without the support of a fleet agreed.

A Cube won't have time to adapt when it will be busted to ashes in no time.

[Mister Oragahn]

Now, since I don't have much time to type this, here's something to contemplate: Borg nanoprobes are quite small, about the size of a red blood cell. The nanoprobes may be able to fit between the small space between Earth's iris and the Stargate's event horizon. If these nanoprobes could take apart the iris, Earth would have a problem indeed. Unfortunately, it is not known if Borg can adapt to bullets.

Not much. Only small particles managed to leak through. That was when Sokar attacked Earth through the stargate.

[Buba uognarf]

We've seen a Cube do it, and all nanites are able to replicate. I don't see why a Cube couldn't do it.

We've never seen it happen again and whether or not borg nanites can self replicate or even work like that is unspecified.

Why 150 ships?

Well Darth timon said 150 and I halved the number to give a less inflated view but if you want reasons for why I think it's around that number here they are. The federation consists of thousands of vessels the single cube reportedly spread them thin across their space so much so that they couldn't confidently take on 50 dominion ships hardly an impressive fleet. That alone shows that the losses must of at least been similar to worf 359 where 40 ships were lost. We also saw about 40 more ships altogether fighting the cube when the enterprise arrived. Also the fact that the federation had been engaging the cube for hours would up this number when you look at the speed the cube was taking down federation ships.

Why is 100 megatons per photon torp even conservative?

Because we're assuming a race who could build 30 megaton weapons (enterprise) 200 years ago has only managed to increase their weapons by around 3 times although evidence if you look at the broader picture points to 24th century federation being far far more powerful than 22nd technology wise and weapons wise. Three times isn't much of a stretch.

I don't understand your sentence.

I was saying that the numbers you posted weren't inflated uber high ends and I would do some calculation which are more fair IMO.

Besides, the reasons behind the inflated figure are simple. You assumed the best conditions to get the highest figures possible for the Cube. Plenty of ships, all firing their full complement of torpedoes.

Darth timon posted those conditions not me. I was conservation and assumed only an average of 5 torpedo's etc...

That would be like if I took the rate of fire seen in Camelot and Homecoming, and assumed a minimal yield of 200 MT per shot, which would give me a couple of gigatons in less than 5 seconds.

Ok...your point is?

How are 500 MT for torps not too absurd? A non canonical, but still well documented guide, had p-torps at 64 MT each. Calcs by fans make them fly between 8 and 120 megatons.

Skin of evil shows a 500 megaton explosion from space. The enterprises torpedo's at 64 megatons which were 25 isotons...voyager for example carries type VI torpedo's rated at 200 isotons 8 times more powerful near enough 500 megatons.

If you arbitrarily decide to use 500 MT for the torps, me boosting the figure five times as well as just as fair and equal.

I boosted my figures in response to your hundreds of gigatons of shielding.

Just where are you getting your ship numbers from? The Federation space, IIRC, is roughly 8000 LY wide. Trek hyperdrives aren't that marvellous. How so many ships could all get there within an hour or a bit more?

The Borg were in federation space for some time and the fleet converged. Also as seen in DS9 hundreds of ships can be mobilized in a hurry.

Which is meaningless because you're increasing the numbers arbitrarily.
I've seen calcs at SB.com which had the ha'taks fire gigatons per bolt, and shields nearing the teraton range.
Way more than what the wanked out Cube you present could ever hope to handle.

Actually if we use the numbers from 'the die is cast' the cube could easily handle these wanked out Ha'taks.

Completely overgenerous calcs based on Beachhead, for example. I didn't agree with them, they're complete fanwank, just as the cases you build up out of nowhere, as a matter of fact.

What case would that be?

For those who can do the maths, yes, it does give shielding with a total of several gigatons.

Even, say, that the ha'tak only had a total of 17 GT of shielding. In Company of Thieves, the bounty hunters' ha'tak was destroyed after 16 seconds of non intensive bombardment (ROF of 1 shot / 2s).

That's 2.125 gigatons per bolt for Latan's ship. More than 1 GT if you go with a ROF of 1 bolt/second (which was not the case).

Latan's ship didn't loose her shields, even after 1:24 seconds of bombardment at a similar ROF of 1 bolt/ 2 seconds. That's a total of 42 bolts.
At 200 MT, at the very least, that puts Latan's ha'tak's shields at 84 gigatons and not failing at all.

For those who can do the maths ok

Firstly this is the only example even hinting at these levels of shielding and secondly the enterpise has metaphasic shielding able to just what your Ha'tak did IIRC.

As for the claims regarding naqahdah's absurd power, I've been doing nothing more than simply stating what was said and shown in the show, nothing more.
If you're going to deny the show, it is your problem, but you also concede the point in the same turn.

Amount of naqahdah bumping a 335-350 KT nuke into a +1,000,000 KT Goa'uld buster.



Raw naqahdah by the way.

Ha'taks run on tons and tons of refined naqahdah.
Again, the show.

I never said that naquadah isn't incredibly powerful, I'm just saying you can't use it as proof of gigaton weapons.

Finally, where are your examples of p-torps at 500 MT each exactly?

Skin of evil is one. Not sure about others.

A bit less of rofl behind each line would help.

Sorry but you starting saying Ha'taks have hundreds of gigatons worth of shields.

A Cube won't have time to adapt when it will be busted to ashes in no time.

But that wouldn't happen Nothing you've said shows a cube wouldn't have time to adapt before it's destroyed if it would even have to adapt.

[Jimbo-DR]

Actually Mr. O's arguments are pretty convincing, considering most of them are based off the show itself. It's hard to argue with the canon rules of the Universe that your scenario is based in.

[Mister Oragahn]

We've never seen it happen again and whether or not borg nanites can self replicate or even work like that is unspecified.

All Trekkies I discussed with told me that nanites can replicate that way.
In fact, just how many cubes, which were damaged so that it could seen with naked eyes, but not too much damaged (Q Who? style) did we get to see exactly?

Well Darth timon said 150 and I halved the number to give a less inflated view but if you want reasons for why I think it's around that number here they are. The federation consists of thousands of vessels the single cube reportedly spread them thin across their space so much so that they couldn't confidently take on 50 dominion ships hardly an impressive fleet.

They spread them think over what distance, precisely? Again, what's the evidence that all the Federation ships were located near Earth, or near the route used by the Cube from the other quadrant?
Spread think when your FTL transport is even slower than that of your enemy is rather logical.

That alone shows that the losses must of at least been similar to worf 359 where 40 ships were lost. We also saw about 40 more ships altogether fighting the cube when the enterprise arrived.

I don't recally seeing that many ships. I'd actually like to see a proper demonstration of how many different ships could be counted there.

Also the fact that the federation had been engaging the cube for hours would up this number when you look at the speed the cube was taking down federation ships.

Many people disagree with that time estimate. They think that one hour is the proper duration.

Because we're assuming a race who could build 30 megaton weapons (enterprise) 200 years ago has only managed to increase their weapons by around 3 times although evidence if you look at the broader picture points to 24th century federation being far far more powerful than 22nd technology wise and weapons wise. Three times isn't much of a stretch.

The first photonic torps they had were not built by the UFP if my memory works well, but where offered to the UFP or something like that. Before that, they were using old fashioned fusion missiles I think.
Besides, I'm not going to repeat myself, but looking at the yield only is looking at a fraction of the whole picture. Again, look at the mechanics of a torpedo. Look how small a warhead is.
Consider that it can be dialed up or down to extremes, that it comes with plenty of systems like advanced controls and shields.

They had, at least, antimatter cores since the NX-01. Things have not evolved much regarding this tech, right?

Besides, if your argument was a sure winned in any debate, I'd quickly use it regarding the Alterans: always testing new things, even in the Pegasus galaxy.
We already saw what their weapons were capable of millions of years ago.

Assuming an increase of 1 MT of firepower by century... oh noes. This gets ugly.

Ok...your point is?

My point is that on similar terms, if I use the same basis for high ends, by using higher firepower mixed to heavy ROF, you end with numbers which laugh at even a wanked cube.

Skin of evil shows a 500 megaton explosion from space.

Error. From what I've understood, we see a very brief flash which is simply too short timed to even corresponed to a high kiloton explosive. And apparently, the level of damage on the surface is near to none or so.

The enterprises torpedo's at 64 megatons which were 25 isotons...voyager for example carries type VI torpedo's rated at 200 isotons 8 times more powerful near enough 500 megatons.

Huh. Get a look at Starfleetjedi.net, on the boards, under the forum Trek Wars, and check the thread called "something ... ISOTON".

You'll see that you're treading on mined grounds. The least to say is that using the isoton mark as evidence for yields is probably the worst thing you can do right now.

I boosted my figures in response to your hundreds of gigatons of shielding.

Huh? that's actually the reverse. I came here with 100s of GT for shields precisely because you started using high level numbers for the Cube.

The Borg were in federation space for some time and the fleet converged. Also as seen in DS9 hundreds of ships can be mobilized in a hurry.

In a hurry? Please detail your evidence, because you won't cut it on FTL travel times.

Actually if we use the numbers from 'the die is cast' the cube could easily handle these wanked out Ha'taks.

Yes, another topic that all Trekkies cream their pants about, but know that they have no chance to use as evidence, because that episode is completely out there, in the same lunatic category as TOS's claims about one oune of antimatter being enough to destroy a star system.

The forum I mention also sports a rather long thread about The Die is Cast, and it's not a pretty sight.

For those who can do the maths ok

Not my problem if you can't accept it.

Firstly this is the only example even hinting at these levels of shielding...

More precisely, it is the only case we can use to obtain shielding figures for a ha'tak that belonged to Cronos. Not even Anubis.
Considering the abilities of naqahdah, and the possibly minimal 200 MT/bolt figures, shields in the gigaton range are nothing far fetched at all.

... and secondly the enterpise has metaphasic shielding able to just what your Ha'tak did IIRC.

Just what did the Enterprise do precisely? And even more, are these metasomething shields even useful against photon torpedoes, plasma weapons and phasers?

I never said that naquadah isn't incredibly powerful, I'm just saying you can't use it as proof of gigaton weapons.

Your words:

"All you have are claims of Naquadah's absurd power..."

This exactly means "you make claims but they're nothing but claims, not facts".

Dude, I have a list long like my leg of these canonical so called *claims*. I already posted it here and in other threads in the last two months.

And yes, considering the value and meaning of these claims, you bet they do support proof of powerful weapons. Maybe not directly gigaton weapons for ha'taks, but not far either.

If that wasn't enough, I pointed out how it was ridiculously easy for humans, ten years ago, to make a gigaton bomb out of a nuke that was only worth of 350 KT top, by using an absurdly small quantity of raw naqahdah.

If that wasn't enough, we had the confirmation of this with the 1.2 gigaton mines brought in Siege part 2, by Everett's men.

Notice the size of the crates, even once the stargate is shut down:

Small crates pilled ontop of others:
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege046.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege049.html

White long crates:
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege053.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege054.html

More crate shots:
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege058.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege068.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege070.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege074.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege079.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege080.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege081.html

Notice the grey ones on McKay's right:
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege087.html
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege090.html

Likely the ones to house the mines:
http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1.../siege118.html

So basically, they had 6 1.2 GT mines stored in those crates.

And the Goa'uld have been using naqahdah while humans were still using stones and wooden sticks.

Skin of evil is one. Not sure about others.

Skin of Evil is clearly not one. So that's all you got for your examples?

Sorry but you starting saying Ha'taks have hundreds of gigatons worth of shields.

Calcs were made, and they're backed up by like ten years of a show and a spin-off.

But that wouldn't happen Nothing you've said shows a cube wouldn't have time to adapt before it's destroyed if it would even have to adapt.

It won't have time to adapt. Especially considering how phasers were putting nice holes in the first Cube they met.

[~Benjamin~]

borg are rubbish they would lose easy, simple guns (pistols,smg,machine guns ect)can easily kill them

[Hypochondriac]

Only two Borg were killed by holodeck bullets. About the same number of drones killed before they adapt to phasers. So we never go a chance to see it they could adapt to real bullets. Holodecks have funky properties

I know books aren't canon, but back in the 90's I remember reading a book in which a Borg drone adapted to a Klingon handgun. Doesn't mean much but thought I would mention it.

Unless a Cube does some research first, it will either be seriously damaged or destroyed by the first Ha'tak it encounters. After that encounter the Cube should have adapted to the weapons and easily destroy Ha'taks.

Beaming over bombs would only work once or twice before the Borg jamming the process. So only one cube would definitely lose. If the Borg land on a planet and start making a fleet of ships the SG verse is doomed

[Mister Oragahn]

Only two Borg were killed by holodeck bullets. About the same number of drones killed before they adapt to phasers. So we never go a chance to see it they could adapt to real bullets. Holodecks have funky properties

I know books aren't canon, but back in the 90's I remember reading a book in which a Borg drone adapted to a Klingon handgun. Doesn't mean much but thought I would mention it.

Unless a Cube does some research first, it will either be seriously damaged or destroyed by the first Ha'tak it encounters. After that encounter the Cube should have adapted to the weapons and easily destroy Ha'taks.

Beaming over bombs would only work once or twice before the Borg jamming the process. So only one cube would definitely lose. If the Borg land on a planet and start making a fleet of ships the SG verse is doomed

You don't adapt to KE. You deal with it or not with a field which can dampen the KE, or a solid surface, or a device that can emulate a solid surface.
The very fact that knifes can hurt Borgs, while they already assimilated thousands of species of various levels, is all we need to know in terms of what primitive weapons can do.
A bullet won't be different here.

The only adaptation a Borg will be able to come with is simply saying "my dear shield, act like... a solid shell... you know, like a... err... a shield".

[Buba uognarf]

All Trekkies I discussed with told me that nanites can replicate that way.
In fact, just how many cubes, which were damaged so that it could seen with naked eyes, but not too much damaged (Q Who? style) did we get to see exactly?

Well we've seen a severely damaged sphere in 'Dark frontier' which suffered heavy hull damage i believe and it didn't regenerate in this manner. 8472 war shows examples of cubes with gaping holes in them although we don't dwell long enough to see if it heals.

They spread them think over what distance, precisely? Again, what's the evidence that all the Federation ships were located near Earth, or near the route used by the Cube from the other quadrant?
Spread think when your FTL transport is even slower than that of your enemy is rather logical.

The federation have always had advanced warning of a coming attack, for example they had days to mobilize in the first incursion. The federation were working on the assumption of an imminent war plus they had time to mobilize. But the federations faster than light drives are at least on par with the dominions who they were spread too thin to engage.

I don't recally seeing that many ships. I'd actually like to see a proper demonstration of how many different ships could be counted there.

Ok I believe 36 ships were seen at the end of the battle, it has been counted with various wrecked hulls also seen. We also know they'd be fighting for a while if you want to call it an hour so be it I think it was longer. At the rate ships were being destroyed and the communication the enterprise recieved detailing heavy casulties almost immediately it's safe to say that many ships were lost by the point the enterprise arrived.

Many people disagree with that time estimate. They think that one hour is the proper duration.

What evidence do they have? I've also seen people claimed days and hundreds of ships for numbers of the battles. Not that i'm agreeing with them I'm just saying unless someone can show me that the enterprise can get from the neutral zone to Earth in a hour my estimate seems more reasonable.

The first photonic torps they had were not built by the UFP if my memory works well, but where offered to the UFP or something like that. Before that, they were using old fashioned fusion missiles I think.
Besides, I'm not going to repeat myself, but looking at the yield only is looking at a fraction of the whole picture. Again, look at the mechanics of a torpedo. Look how small a warhead is.
Consider that it can be dialed up or down to extremes, that it comes with plenty of systems like advanced controls and shields.

They had, at least, antimatter cores since the NX-01. Things have not evolved much regarding this tech, right?

The first photonic torpedo's were built by Earth in the early 2150's. I realize that the yield isn't the only thing but enterprise had yields measuring around 30 megatons 200 years earlier and federation tech has advanced a hell of a lot since then.

Anti matter cores of the 24th century are MUCH more powerful than those of the NX-01. Just because it's an evolution of the tech doesn't mean it hasn't evolved significantly
.

Besides, if your argument was a sure winned in any debate, I'd quickly use it regarding the Alterans: always testing new things, even in the Pegasus galaxy.
We already saw what their weapons were capable of millions of years ago.

Assuming an increase of 1 MT of firepower by century... oh noes. This gets ugly.

That wasn't what i was saying though. We know the phasers of a constitution class are as powerful as the photons used by the powers in the 22nd century at least judging by the damage the constitution was able to do with hers facing ships of that era. We also know photon torpedo's are significantly stronger than phasers.

My point is that on similar terms, if I use the same basis for high ends, by using higher firepower mixed to heavy ROF, you end with numbers which laugh at even a wanked cube.

I never made wanked out claims about a Borg cube .

Error. From what I've understood, we see a very brief flash which is simply too short timed to even corresponed to a high kiloton explosive. And apparently, the level of damage on the surface is near to none or so.

Haven't seen the episode in a while only remember the explosion. I blame the sfx effects of the time personally but I realize that won't cut any slack with you...

Huh. Get a look at Starfleetjedi.net, on the boards, under the forum Trek Wars, and check the thread called "something ... ISOTON".

You'll see that you're treading on mined grounds. The least to say is that using the isoton mark as evidence for yields is probably the worst thing you can do right now.

No. I brought up the isoton because you were quoting the technical manual as having 64 megaton torpedo's. If you quote the technical manual I can cross reference it with the actual show which gives you 500 megatons. I wasn't saying that the manual is right or that those numbers are fact. My point was that if you mention the manual in that sense you should be prepared for me to use it myself.

Huh? that's actually the reverse. I came here with 100s of GT for shields precisely because you started using high level numbers for the Cube.

No I didn't. Darth Timon gave those numbers...My numbers were around the 80 gigaton mark but even if I assume there was 80 ships firing 5x 50 megaton torpedoes with no phasers I still get 20 gigatons. I'm not sure what you would call a low end.

In a hurry? Please detail your evidence, because you won't cut it on FTL travel times.

Hours to days, remember defenses around earth would have been tightened at these time due to the threat of war etc...The Borg traveling at warp aren't much faster than federation ships so unless they transwarped into light years from Earth the federation should have had ample warning.

Yes, another topic that all Trekkies cream their pants about, but know that they have no chance to use as evidence, because that episode is completely out there, in the same lunatic category as TOS's claims about one oune of antimatter being enough to destroy a star system.

The forum I mention also sports a rather long thread about The Die is Cast, and it's not a pretty sight.

Once again I only mentioned that because like it or not that's a one off high end from trek weapons even it is far to powerful in the scheme of things. You mentioned the high end of a Ha'tak using numbers from 'enemies' to show teraton shields when I could use TDIC to extrapolate cube numbers would also be a high end.

Not my problem if you can't accept it.

Never said I could accept it or that your maths was wrong, I just didn't see the need for you to insult my intelligence.

More precisely, it is the only case we can use to obtain shielding figures for a ha'tak that belonged to Cronos. Not even Anubis.
Considering the abilities of naqahdah, and the possibly minimal 200 MT/bolt figures, shields in the gigaton range are nothing far fetched at all.

Just what did the Enterprise do precisely? And even more, are these metasomething shields even useful against photon torpedoes, plasma weapons and phasers?

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/disp...um=152&pos=320

Thats where the enterprise was...not sure whether that proves anything though lol. It modified it's own shield using research down on metaphasic shielding.

Your words:

"All you have are claims of Naquadah's absurd power..."

This exactly means "you make claims but they're nothing but claims, not facts".

You misunderstood me, I wasn't saying naquadah isn't powerful. My point was you can't say that because they have naquadah powercores they can also fire multi gigaton blasts.

Dude, I have a list long like my leg of these canonical so called *claims*. I already posted it here and in other threads in the last two months.

And yes, considering the value and meaning of these claims, you bet they do support proof of powerful weapons. Maybe not directly gigaton weapons for ha'taks, but not far either.

If that wasn't enough, I pointed out how it was ridiculously easy for humans, ten years ago, to make a gigaton bomb out of a nuke that was only worth of 350 KT top, by using an absurdly small quantity of raw naqahdah.

If that wasn't enough, we had the confirmation of this with the 1.2 gigaton mines brought in Siege part 2, by Everett's men.

Notice the size of the crates, even once the stargate is shut down:

And the Goa'uld have been using naqahdah while humans were still using stones and wooden sticks.

I didn't need these examples lol. Ok I do realize believe it or not that naquadah is insanely powerful but you can't use naquadah explosive potentional to prove that Ha'taks have hundreds of gigatons worth of shielding. For example a bc - 304 uses naquadah generators, the ones in the promethus looked like standard mark I's they overload with the force of 20 kilotons yet they powerful the ships supposed hundreds of gigatons worth of shielding.

I'm not sure how overload yield correlates to generator output though.

Skin of Evil is clearly not one. So that's all you got for your examples?

Pretty much off the top of my head lol. Like I said I wasn't saying that was the factual torpedo yield I was giving an example of a possible high end.

Calcs were made, and they're backed up by like ten years of a show and a spin-off.

Fair enough but it's still a single episode and the only thing which supports it is the explosive potential of naquadah but even then the only example of a naquadah reactor we have is 20 kilotons on overload so unless goa'uld reactors are billions of times more powerful...

It won't have time to adapt. Especially considering how phasers were putting nice holes in the first Cube they met.

The Borg have advanced since then and torpedoes had no effect since the get go. You can't prove that Goa'uld weapons will have the same effect phasers once did. Especially since even since then we've never seen anything like that kind of damage done bare species 8472. Also bear in mind we saw no shield impacts during that episode where as ever since then we have done it's possible the borg were morons and didn't raise shields...

Another point I'd like to make is that the Promethus's Asgard shields can be drained by gliders and alkesh and yet it can take many Ha'tak level hits too. Surely the Ha'taks weapons which should be billions of times more powerful would destroy it in a single hit.