Asgard and the Federation

[AvatarIII]

lol it would be a hunk o' space junk

[kymeric]

ST developed most of it's technology on it's own. How good do you think the x304 would be if the azgard decided to take back all there technology?

One of the things that enterprise showed is that each race had their own technology that they were good at and together as the federation they pieced it together into a awesome combo. Vulcans had high warp, humans had trasporters, andorians had weapons shields and armies, tellerites had replicators. It ties in with the naieve pre 9-11 worldview of cooperation and working together to make a perfect world.

Whereas SG1 and SGA is stolen guaould tech that never worked right, gifted asgard tech and poorly understood scavanged ancient tech, and a whole pile of advanced aliens who didnt share their sh!t and are now dead from some enemies that earth not only survived through but defeated.

I love trek, i always prolly will but SG1 SGA is alot more current and stronger.

[darth_timon]

Federation weapons tech is pretty weak when compared to what SG forces throw around. The TNG episode Pegasus reveals that a galaxy-class starship requires most of it's torpedoes to destroy an asteroid 5KM wide, that was also partially hollow. According to the Technical Manuals, a galaxy-class ship holds 275 torpedoes. I refer you to the following link for details of the firepower of a torpedo in those circumstances http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Data...EpName=Pegasus

With a maximum yield of 450KT per torpedo and 275 torpedoes, we arrive at 123.75 megatons for a galaxy class's entire torpedo complement- compare that to what Carter said in SG1's 'But there for the Grace of God', where a single Goa'uld shot was about 200 megatons. On the basis of that episode alone, a Goa'uld Ha'tak has more firepower in ONE SHOT than a GCS has with all it's torpedoes!

[Buba uognarf]

Federation weapons tech is pretty weak when compared to what SG forces throw around. The TNG episode Pegasus reveals that a galaxy-class starship requires most of it's torpedoes to destroy an asteroid 5KM wide, that was also partially hollow. According to the Technical Manuals, a galaxy-class ship holds 275 torpedoes. I refer you to the following link for details of the firepower of a torpedo in those circumstances http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Data...EpName=Pegasus

With a maximum yield of 450KT per torpedo and 275 torpedoes, we arrive at 123.75 megatons for a galaxy class's entire torpedo complement- compare that to what Carter said in SG1's 'But there for the Grace of God', where a single Goa'uld shot was about 200 megatons. On the basis of that episode alone, a Goa'uld Ha'tak has more firepower in ONE SHOT than a GCS has with all it's torpedoes!

Ok that's a load of rubbish for sooo many reasons.

ok firstly we know from enterprise 22nd century level photon torpedo's blow 3 mile crators in asteroids so that refutts your little the maximum yield of a torpedo is 450KT. That statement puts inferior torpedo's centuries old comfortably into the megaton range We have numerous times heard that a single starship of constitution class can slag an entire world. There's also the fact that we've seen explosions visible from space made by Photon torpedo's 'Skin of Evil'.

We also know that a fleet of starships can obliterate a planets surface "The Die Is Cast" now while many people consider this a once off it's really not. If you compare this to the numerous time we've been told that a single starship can slag an entire world and what the Xindi weapons were capable of e.g. death staring an entire planet it's really not far fetched to think that 200 years on the major powers could cause so much damage.

The visuals show massive explosions despite what you might argue. Huge disturbances are shown on the planet fitting with the description that 20% of the crush had been vapourized. We've also seen many times photon torpedo's obliterating targets displaying much more than 450 Kt of energy.

Then there's also the numerous examples of Goa'uld weapons fired at ground level causing very little damage think hand grenade. Now I personally choose to ignore these absurdly pitiful examples of Goa'uld firepower but I'm pointing out where as a very low end estimate for Fed weapons is 450kt a low end estimation for Goa'uld weapons is...hand grenade level

[TheAccended]

Federation weapons tech is pretty weak when compared to what SG forces throw around. The TNG episode Pegasus reveals that a galaxy-class starship requires most of it's torpedoes to destroy an asteroid 5KM wide, that was also partially hollow. According to the Technical Manuals, a galaxy-class ship holds 275 torpedoes. I refer you to the following link for details of the firepower of a torpedo in those circumstances http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Data...EpName=Pegasus

With a maximum yield of 450KT per torpedo and 275 torpedoes, we arrive at 123.75 megatons for a galaxy class's entire torpedo complement- compare that to what Carter said in SG1's 'But there for the Grace of God', where a single Goa'uld shot was about 200 megatons. On the basis of that episode alone, a Goa'uld Ha'tak has more firepower in ONE SHOT than a GCS has with all it's torpedoes!

It was my understanding that photon torpedoes have an average yield of 64 megatons with a max yield of 200 megatons. The overall yield of the torpedo depends on the distance you want it to travel. With an average yield a torpedo can travel up to 3mil kilometers, phasers have an effective range of 300k kilometers. I not to sure on there yield though, i have heard anywhere from 1million mega-joules to 50 giga-joules.

On a side note, anyone ever notice that for a ship designed for diplomatic missions, A galaxy class was armed to the teeth. 14 phaser arrays, port and aft torpedo launchers, that each could launch up to 10 torpedoes/sec.

[wolfax]

It was my understanding that photon torpedoes have an average yield of 64 megatons with a max yield of 200 megatons. The overall yield of the torpedo depends on the distance you want it to travel. With an average yield a torpedo can travel up to 3mil kilometers, phasers have an effective range of 300k kilometers. I not to sure on there yield though, i have heard anywhere from 1million mega-joules to 50 giga-joules.

On a side note, anyone ever notice that for a ship designed for diplomatic missions, A galaxy class was armed to the teeth. 14 phaser arrays, port and aft torpedo launchers, that each could launch up to 10 torpedoes/sec.

Yes, but there are also explorer ships, therefore all Galaxy Class ships will be armed to the teeth because of the desisgn.

[Emperor Tippy]

Considering that 1 megaton is equal to 4,184,000 gigajoules of energy I would have to say that Stargate Weapons are far superior to Startrek weapons in the energy category.

A single 200 megaton plasma shot from a Goa'uld Ha'tak contains more energy than is used in a year on earth.

[Buba uognarf]

Considering that 1 megaton is equal to 4,184,000 gigajoules of energy I would have to say that Stargate Weapons are far superior to Startrek weapons in the energy category.

A single 200 megaton plasma shot from a Goa'uld Ha'tak contains more energy than is used in a year on earth.

Well Star trek can also fire weapons of that magnitude...so I don't get your point.

[Emperor Tippy]

Not with Phasers. Every stated yield of them comes out to under a megaton. Phasers aren't that strong. Photon Torpedo's can reach those kinds of yields but they aren't directed energy weapons.

[Buba uognarf]

Not with Phasers. Every stated yield of them comes out to under a megaton. Phasers aren't that strong. Photon Torpedo's can reach those kinds of yields but they aren't directed energy weapons.

Phasers are well above a megaton. Otherwise they wouldn't even damage the shields of ships that can take several direct photon torpedo hits.

[Hypochondriac]

Problem is ST weapons are more exotic then raw fire power. Phasers for example can dig a hole kilometers deep (not sure if it was thousands or hundreds) in a few seconds without causing damage to surrounding areas. phaser can disintegrate objects and leave no trace.

Then you have the wide area phaser blast. If you want to look at raw firepower their weaker, but when it comes to results they seem pretty powerful.

[darth_timon]

Ok that's a load of rubbish for sooo many reasons.

ok firstly we know from enterprise 22nd century level photon torpedo's blow 3 mile crators in asteroids so that refutts your little the maximum yield of a torpedo is 450KT. That statement puts inferior torpedo's centuries old comfortably into the megaton range We have numerous times heard that a single starship of constitution class can slag an entire world. There's also the fact that we've seen explosions visible from space made by Photon torpedo's 'Skin of Evil'.

Doesn't matter what a 22nd century weapon does- the Federation of the 24th century uses 24th century weapons and TNG's 'Pegasus' is canon proof of what is at best kiloton-level yield. If you dispute what happened in that episode, you are invited to explain why the Enterprise needed most of her torpedoes to destroy a 3KM HOLLOW asteroid. Whilst you're at it, you can also explain why the explosion in 'Skin of Evil' left no visible damage to the planet's surface.

We also know that a fleet of starships can obliterate a planets surface "The Die Is Cast" now while many people consider this a once off it's really not. If you compare this to the numerous time we've been told that a single starship can slag an entire world and what the Xindi weapons were capable of e.g. death staring an entire planet it's really not far fetched to think that 200 years on the major powers could cause so much damage.

A fleet of starships could spend several hours completing that feat in TDIC, but that hardly translates into awesome firepower.

The visuals show massive explosions despite what you might argue. Huge disturbances are shown on the planet fitting with the description that 20% of the crush had been vapourized. We've also seen many times photon torpedo's obliterating targets displaying much more than 450 Kt of energy.

We see some fancy shockwaves in TDIC and then... no visible damage to the surface. If 20% of the crust had been vapourised, we would SEE that, yet we don't. We don't even see fireballs- we see some fancy shockwaves that dissapate and leave no visible traces of damage at all- care to explain how that can be the case?

I can also point out that even the Federation's greatest enemy, the Borg, caused no more damage to a 21st century settlement in 'First Contact' than a modern bombardment could. The Borg sphere fired at least a dozen shots at that missile complex and yet failed to cause significant damage to it's target. Yet the Federation fear the Borg!

Then there's also the numerous examples of Goa'uld weapons fired at ground level causing very little damage think hand grenade. Now I personally choose to ignore these absurdly pitiful examples of Goa'uld firepower but I'm pointing out where as a very low end estimate for Fed weapons is 450kt a low end estimation for Goa'uld weapons is...hand grenade level

There is such a thing as context- 'Between Two Fires' shows low firepower for the Goa'uld, when they bombard the Tollans, but we know the Goa'uld are scavengers and they would most likely want a chance to sift through what remained of the Tollans for anything to steal- something you can't do if there is nothing left to look at.

'The Warrior' depicts low firepower again, but again, place it in context. Lord Yu was sympathetic to SG1, exposed Imoteph as a Goa'uld and allowed Teal'c to confront him- he also warned Teal'c of the impending attack.

The Beach Head incident from Season 9 gives us firepower per shot for a Ha'tak of 360MT at a minimum. This exceeds even the ST tech manual estimate of 64MT per torpedo and far exceeds the canon example of 450KT. With just 3 shots, an Ha'tak has unleashed nearly 1 gigaton. At 450KT per torp, a Galaxy-class ship could fire all her torps and the total firepower would only add up to 28.8MT.

Now stop and consider that the Asgard possess superior defences and weapons to the Goa'uld- if the Goa'uld can thrash the Federation, what do you think the Asgard could do?

[Buba uognarf]

Doesn't matter what a 22nd century weapon does- the Federation of the 24th century uses 24th century weapons and TNG's 'Pegasus' is canon proof of what is at best kiloton-level yield. If you dispute what happened in that episode, you are invited to explain why the Enterprise needed most of her torpedoes to destroy a 3KM HOLLOW asteroid. Whilst you're at it, you can also explain why the explosion in 'Skin of Evil' left no visible damage to the planet's surface.

Oh i get it so their weapons got worse? Give me a break you're trying to tell me a 22nd century vessel can take on the pride of starfleet in the 24th? Which is what your arguement amounts to. Obviously the Asteroid was made of an EXTREMELY dense rock able to withstand gigatongs of firepower there's the explanation. Why you don't you explain the numerous times we've heard that a single starship can slag worlds.

Poor special effects you need to put this in the context of the time it was made. The Torpedo's made explosions from space which show firepower in the hundreds of megatons the fact that the special effects couldn't render this at a ground level is irrelevent we saw the explosion.

A fleet of starships could spend several hours completing that feat in TDIC, but that hardly translates into awesome firepower.

Actually a fleet of 20 ships completely destroying the crust of a planet does show awesome firepower.

We see some fancy shockwaves in TDIC and then... no visible damage to the surface. If 20% of the crust had been vapourised, we would SEE that, yet we don't. We don't even see fireballs- we see some fancy shockwaves that dissapate and leave no visible traces of damage at all- care to explain how that can be the case?

Poor special effects? That about sums it up. So you're telling me that the sensors on 20 ships were malfunctioning in the exact same way, that each of those crew members was mistaken about the fire power of their vessels and that the huge shock waves covering significant portions of the planet were caused by at best kiloton level weapons??? Care to explain.

You know it was the special affects of the day that have produced these errors look at it logically and honestly without nitpicking. If your only way to dispute these examples is to draw attention to the poor special effects then it's a sign of desperation.

I can also point out that even the Federation's greatest enemy, the Borg, caused no more damage to a 21st century settlement in 'First Contact' than a modern bombardment could. The Borg sphere fired at least a dozen shots at that missile complex and yet failed to cause significant damage to it's target. Yet the Federation fear the Borg!

Obviously the Borg wanted to keep the continent intact. They wanted to assimilate Earth not annihilate it. Also the Sphere was drained of power by opening the temporal rift, it couldn't fully make use of it's weapons.

There is such a thing as context- 'Between Two Fires' shows low firepower for the Goa'uld, when they bombard the Tollans, but we know the Goa'uld are scavengers and they would most likely want a chance to sift through what remained of the Tollans for anything to steal- something you can't do if there is nothing left to look at.

'The Warrior' depicts low firepower again, but again, place it in context. Lord Yu was sympathetic to SG1, exposed Imoteph as a Goa'uld and allowed Teal'c to confront him- he also warned Teal'c of the impending attack.

Ok how about the times we've seen Alkesh and Tel'tac's take direct hits from Ha'tak weapons and survive. Both of which can be downed by modern missiles.

How do you explain that?

The Beach Head incident from Season 9 gives us firepower per shot for a Ha'tak of 360MT at a minimum. This exceeds even the ST tech manual estimate of 64MT per torpedo and far exceeds the canon example of 450KT. With just 3 shots, an Ha'tak has unleashed nearly 1 gigaton. At 450KT per torp, a Galaxy-class ship could fire all her torps and the total firepower would only add up to 28.8MT.

The technical manual is not canonical. the technical manual also I believe gives torpedo's a yield of 25 Isotons where as in Voyager we know they carry Torpedo's of 200 Isotons. If we assume that the technical manual is right and that Galaxy class starships carries 25 Isoton (64 megaton torpedo's). Then Voyagers torpedo armenant would be around 500 Megatons per torpedo. Bare in mind that a single torpedo tube can fire 10 simultaneously that's 5 Gigatons in a couple of seconds.

Now stop and consider that the Asgard possess superior defences and weapons to the Goa'uld- if the Goa'uld can thrash the Federation, what do you think the Asgard could do?

We're not talking about the Asgard we're talking about the Goa'uld. In any case the technology brought back by Voyager at the end of season 7 would easily enable them to conquer the Asgard in a standard engagement.

[Emperor Tippy]

Bubba, to be able to take a single 200 megaton hit fro ma Ha'Tak would require Federation ships to have shields in the 836,800,000 gigawatt range.

[Hypochondriac]

Trek weaponry is more exotic then standard yield. As for the episode Pegasus. Depends on what you mean by destroy. To me It would mean vaporizing the asteroid and the ship so there wouldn't even be a small chunk of debris for the romulans to analyze. The asteroid calculator on SD.net assumes chunks or 10m in diameter.

Trek shields are weird as well. They could easily withstand phasers and torpedoes. But when the dominion attacked with phased polaran beams they took the shields down in a hurry.