Real-life modern day ship

[Jarnin]

They've simply ignored too many good ideas (spaceplanes? HELLO!?!?!?!?)

Space planes are a bad idea. You can't take a shuttle to the Moon, or Mars, or anywhere out of low Earth orbit. Not only that, but for what the shuttle does, it can be done 10 to potentially 100 times cheaper using a rocket.

The shuttle was a congressional pork barrel project designed to fill the pockets of businesses in certain congressional areas. That's why no new space planes are around today: If a congressman heard that money would be moved out of their district, they'd vote against funding it. That is what has killed every attempt to replace the shuttle for the last 20 years.

and pushed forward with too many bad ones (ship + giant rocket (aka BOMB)) for me to respect them anymore.

First of all, the shuttle is a ship + giant rocket. Don't delude yourself. Also, the shuttle has shown to be more susceptible to things (ice, foam, etc.) falling on it because it has to piggy-back into space on said giant rocket. It's a bad design, and has been a bad design from the very beginning.

Second, I see what your problem is. You want Star Wars ships, not something that would actually work in the real world. You want what the idiots in congress wanted in the early 1970's: a cool looking spaceship, that looks like what they saw in the movies, that would make other countries admire us. Guess what? That stuff won't work in real life, and it's taken congress nearly 40 years to figure it out.
While we've been messing around with the shuttle, the Russians leapfrogged us 20 years ago. The only reason why we have a chance to catch back up with them is due to their economic problems since the collapse of the U.S.S.R.

Call me when they decide to use a plan that makes sense, and uses a more modern thinking (I mean, Apollo-style ships as next-gen? No... oh please, no).

You just don't understand the complexities of running a space program with the budget NASA and the ESA are working with. Like I said, you want the big cool looking space ships as seen in Star Wars, but they are fiction, and completely impossible to build in real life. Once you stop thinking 'flash' and start thinking 'substance', you might change your mind.

Apollo style ships are fine for nasa and what they’re planning to do near future. They are relying on the private sector to make what you have in mind, I think.

That they are. Scaled Composites and Virgin Galactic might have an orbital space plane in the next 10 years. Of course nobody but the filthy rich will be able to take a ride, at least for the foreseeable future.

Bigelow Aerospace will have orbiting hotels in the next 10 years. Guess how the visitors will get there? That's right, they'll be sitting on top of a big rocket.
Rockets are a much cheaper way to get into space. That isn't going to change for a long, long time.

I think for the foreseeable future the most innovative space vehicles will be from the private sector.

Yep. That's already been proven by the X Prize and Scaled Composites. They'll innovate because it costs a ton of cash to do anything in space. The cheaper they can do it, the more profit they make.

Space as an accessible industry is upon us.

Hah, not even close. Unless you have millions of dollars (Euros?) to burn, space will always be just out of reach for 99.999999% of us.

By the way, don't consider a $200,000 ride 100 km straight up as a "trip into space". It only lasts 6 minutes. That's a very expensive roller coaster, not a trip into space.

Also, it could be intersting watching the ESA in the coming years as they begin to develop the ACTS, their own manned vehicle. Maybe they could come up with something more innovative than NASA? I doubt it, but we can dream lol...

If you look at their current designs, they're going with the proven concept of capsule+big rocket.

I mean, the Orion is all fine and dandy, but it's basically reusing an old concept.

An old, solid concept.

Imagine if Henry Ford built 4 wheel cars for a decade, then decided to drop a wheel and go with only 3. Of course retooling the factories is going to cost a lot of money up front, and the three wheel design gets terrible gas mileage, but it looks really cool.
Then Henry start noticing that the 3 wheel design has a tendency to fall over and kill people, so he decides to go back to the 4 wheel design. That's where we are with our space program right now.

We've just figured out that we made a horrible mistake with the Shuttle, and now we're fixing the problem by going back to the reliable designs of the past.

The space shuttles are rendered pretty meaningless in my opinion, design wise anyway, it's a shame... I know they were flawed, but flaws are there to be overcome, not to set you back...

The flaws were inherent in the design. And the interesting thing is that Orion is overcoming the problems with the shuttle. They're still using a lot of bits and pieces of the STS in Orion. The Ares V is using the solid booster rockets and the main fuel tank. The Ares I is using the solid booster rockets. So it's not like they're starting over from scratch, they're just removing the part of the shuttle which was a bad idea; namely, the shuttle.

The Apollo style ships still make more sense in every way. They are cheaper and more reliable. I know a lot of people who think the shuttle system is better because it "recycles" the ships, even though the cost of reusing a shuttle greatly exceeds that of just building new rockets.

Orion is going to be recycled as well. Capsules will be reused at least 10 times in the current design. The solid boosters will be reused. The only thing that won't be reused is the big external tank, which is exactly how it is now.

If you guys are interested in how a future space program might get us to Mars and beyond, check out the Red Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.

In the first book, they use the Shuttle's main external tank to build several rotating space stations, then use more of the ETs to build a giant ship called the Ares to send 100 people to Mars permanently. From there they start terraforming Mars, and it just gets better and better. It's probably the best series I've read on the subject, and it's nearly all doable with current technologies.

[Exiled Master]

Actually propulsion is the easiest to solve. We have had the tech to make ships the size of large cities (capable of holding a hundred thousand people) that can travel at speeds in excess of .3 c. Go look up Project Orion.

Propel a ship by making it fart nukes.

Gravity would be the hardest part.

Gravity as in escape velocity or gravity as in getting the thing built? It would take a very long time to get such a ship built.

[ziga1980]

Genetic engineering isn’t anywhere near viable. We can manipulate genes, sure, but that doesn’t mean we can ENGINEER stuff. We can correct some problems, but we cannot reliably create new properties. Not without creating side effects or unforeseen genetic diseases. This is the main reason genetic experimentation on humans is regulated - we're too ignorant.

and we ain't gonna learn more about it if we sit on our asses and "regulate" aka. outlaw it. i believe that projects are being run....underground projects we know nothing about. surly you can dismiss my claims by saying it's a conspiracy theory. but think about it, if you had the power and resources to play around with human cloning and genetic manipulation/engineering, what would you do? i for sure wouldn't give a rats ass about the law and politicians.

but you're right, as far as we (public) know it's not an option (all though it exists)....yet.

[Randy_Watson]

Orion is going to be recycled as well. Capsules will be reused at least 10 times in the current design. The solid boosters will be reused. The only thing that won't be reused is the big external tank, which is exactly how it is now.

Yeah, I definately get that, I was just refering more to the perception of people I know. They basically think the shuttle is just a plane, so it saves money because you use it over and over again (even though it doesn't save money)

[Ravroz]

They oughta be concentrating on developing a reusable space plane. I mean something that truely takes off from the ground like a plane then accelerates into orbit. Plus, I am very interested to see where scientists take the current theories on hyperspace tech in the coming decades. There are some very interesting theories on shielding and how hyperspace works and how a ship might be able to make use of it.

[Morrolan]

We are definitely going to need a shuttle fleet for repairs to satellites and orbiting space stations. The Orion project is great for space travel, but it does not address our need for orbital maintenance.

The shuttle program may be expensive and risky, but it is definitely needed.

Maybe NASA should start thinking with "flash" instead of "substance." Going back to capsule rockets in a step backward, no matter you look at it. Even with modern systems, the capsule system is antiquated. It shows the truth; when it comes to space travel, we have not advanced beyond the 60's.

Here's an idea. Why not double NASA's shuttle budget for about 5 years? I bet they could come up with something amazing.

[IcyNeko]

Well, one can feasibly do the same deployment of space station materials using conventional rockets instead of just using shuttles.

But the original post was talking about long distance exploration-type vehicle.. a starship... no? Not sure the Orion would count. If it hit a strong planetary gravitational field, it would be trapped on the planet without means of getting off the planet (having expended its rocket propulsion on earth).

[Randy_Watson]

Morrolan, Why do you think we need a shuttle for orbital maintenance?

[AvatarIII]

We are definitely going to need a shuttle fleet for repairs to satellites and orbiting space stations. The Orion project is great for space travel, but it does not address our need for orbital maintenance.

The shuttle program may be expensive and risky, but it is definitely needed.

Maybe NASA should start thinking with "flash" instead of "substance." Going back to capsule rockets in a step backward, no matter you look at it. Even with modern systems, the capsule system is antiquated. It shows the truth; when it comes to space travel, we have not advanced beyond the 60's.

Here's an idea. Why not double NASA's shuttle budget for about 5 years? I bet they could come up with something amazing.

we dont need shuttles for orbital maintainence, nasa are already testing robots for that sort of work.

also nasa are getting rubbish budgets for the next few years (thanks to congress) the orion project is a lot more advanced and efficient than shuttles, they just look old fasioned because we are used to thinking "apollo old, shuttles new" the only advantage of shuttles is dry landing.

[morrismike]

Guys
The air force had a vehicle called the delta clipper which was even simpler than the vehicle shown in the movie "astronaut farmer". NASA commandeered the program and sabotaged its own test launch to bury the project. There has always been alternatives to the shuttle but you have to understand that without the shuttle NASA is really nothing and its budget (and buracracy) would be greatly diminished without it.

[IcyNeko]

I wouldn't call it "burying" the project more than NASA just killed funding to it. The engineers who worked on the original concept are now working on a similar designed project under private funding.

It's funny to note that NASA killed the project in favor of the VentureStar program, which sported aircraft-like landing. Because heaven forbid if they should ever have to try landing anywhere else BUT earth for any reason, and heaven forbid that planet NOT have a smooth runway built on it.

[Morrolan]

we dont need shuttles for orbital maintainence, nasa are already testing robots for that sort of work.

also nasa are getting rubbish budgets for the next few years (thanks to congress) the orion project is a lot more advanced and efficient than shuttles, they just look old fasioned because we are used to thinking "apollo old, shuttles new" the only advantage of shuttles is dry landing.

We don't have practically working robots to do repairs during orbital flights. It's all theory. They are definitely not ready for production.

It's not about looking old fashioned, they ARE old fashioned. There may be updated systems and more efficiency, but the means of getting into space hasn't changed since the 40's and 50's. Huge fuel tanks and large rockets should be a thing of the past. Even the current shuttle fleet should have been upgraded and refined at least 3 times since its inception.

The issue is easily money. Pork barrel funding kills NASA.

[IcyNeko]

I'm a big fan of pork. and barrels.

[Morrolan]

I'm a big fan of pork. and barrels.

Nancy Pelosi, is that you? I didn't know you were a Stargate fan.

[IcyNeko]

haha. Just my rendition of Jack's "I'm a fan of maidens. And voyages"