Point of Origin flaws/question

[Seastallion]

Ah, no. There's a plot hole on the DHD as well.

The DHD has 38 symbols, the Stargate has 39. Since we know the point of origin is definately located on the DHD, then there is a missing symbol. It turns out the missing symbol is Aquila (AKA, the symbol that looks like a square root).

Yeah, big prop snafu's there... It's too bad that they hadn't really worked it out totally way back at the beginning. In reality, there should NEVER be a POO symbol on a DHD. The BRB (Big Red Button) on the DHD should serve as the POO, as well as the activation mechanism. The only reason the POO is on the Stargate itself is for manual dialing. The SGC must use it all the time, because they ALWAYS manual dial the gate, only that they mechanized the manual dialing process. It wouldn't be necessary to key in the POO symbol on the DHD. You only dial the 6 coordinate symbols, and hit the center red button. Prop goofs and plot holes abound...

Apparently somebody forgot that the symbol shown on the Stargate, SG-1 patches, and the Stargate logo wasn't the original point of origin for Earth. Check Solitudes for details.

That is true enough, but then the second Earth gate was the only one they knew about when they first began exploration through the gate. Also, now that the Antartic gate is destroyed, it is as valid as it could be at this point.

Gate addresses are not based on constellations. A constellation is a 2 dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional object. If you leave Earth, constellations no longer make any sense. Not only that, but pretty much every star that is in all the constellations are within 1500 light years from Earth.
This is why fans of SG-1 thought that the ancients originated on Earth prior to season 9 (it would explain why all the gates use symbols representing constellations from an Earth-bound perspective).

True enough. I myself came up with the idea that the Earth constellations were based on the stargate, RATHER than the other way around. It would make more sense, in terms of the relationship between the Earth constellations and their stargate counterparts, especially given the supposed age of the stargate network, which predates the constellation configuration of modern times. The star patterns change over the aeons, thus it wouldn't make sense for the stargate symbols to be based on the constellations, just on that alone.

Gate symbols, according to the series, represent 6 sides of an imaginary cube, and the space inside the cube should represent the point of origin volume.

If you watch the episode Evolution Pt. I, they actually show how the gate symbols work in this cube configuration:



As you can see, this diagram allows us to figure out which symbol represents which part of the cube. If you were inside the cube:

1st symbol = Left
2nd symbol = Up
3rd symbol = Forward
4th symbol = Right
5th symbol = Down
6th symbol = Backwards

See, if constellations were really the basis for the Stargate symbols, you wouldn't be able to see the up, down, left, or right symbols, and the forwards/backwards symbols would be merged into a single constellation.

Another thing to note is that the picture above shows the point of origin for that address, which is a symbol on the Stargate. This is a plot hole due to the fact that all gates have 38 universal symbols and one unique symbol designated as the point of origin for that location. If you can use the universal symbols as points of origin, then what is in the 39th symbol slot? Is it a duplicate symbol, or is it blank?

Again, I agree that it is a massive plot hole to be using one of the coordinate symbols as a POO symbol. I suppose there might be a way to work it, but it is a bit odd. I think the prop people (or the writers) simply didn't take it into account. Such mistakes, I think are best ignored for those of us that like a certain degree of continuity in how things are supposed to work.

I actually worked on building a coordinate system in Sketchup based on the information from that screen shot, but unfortunately there are no outside references to determine which way the forward face of the cube is pointing in relation to our galaxy: In other words, I would have had to draw about 2 million cubes in order to figure out where this particular address fit in the big picture. Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of time to burn.

I also did it in another thread, about Mathematics. I was trying to get any math wiz people to try and help me come up with a mapping system based on the stargate coordinate system. I came up with a pretty good one, but I still wasn't very satisfied with it, even though I had millions of potential stargates, with a reasonable spacing between the block grid in which I divided the galaxy.

My thread on this topic is... : http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=35809

[Zatnikitelman]

You're all pretty much forgetting one major thing about the use of constellations: the Ancients presumably left the gates for their seeded populations. Those populations wouldn't have aywhere near the level of tech of even us until several million possibly billion years of evolution (please, no evolution vs. creation arguments here). They needed a system easy for the primitives to understand, over an astronomically short time, the constellation system will work quite well as the sky won't change much over several thousand years. The constellation symbols just stand for whatever numerical coordinate system the Ancients used with all the translation being done in the DHD and that is kept up to date through the correlative updates.

[Seastallion]

You're all pretty much forgetting one major thing about the use of constellations: the Ancients presumably left the gates for their seeded populations. Those populations wouldn't have aywhere near the level of tech of even us until several million possibly billion years of evolution (please, no evolution vs. creation arguments here). They needed a system easy for the primitives to understand, over an astronomically short time, the constellation system will work quite well as the sky won't change much over several thousand years. The constellation symbols just stand for whatever numerical coordinate system the Ancients used with all the translation being done in the DHD and that is kept up to date through the correlative updates.

I'm sorry, but your theory is quite flawed. The Ancients had built the stargates for their OWN use, not their descendents by proxy. The Antartic stargate was dated at 50 Million years old, and the skies were DEFINITELY different that far back in time. All of the stargates are using a common mapping system of the galaxy in which the symbols on the stargates are relevant to specific targeting of certain coordinates. Check out my thread (a link is on my above post) for more detailed info on just such a system as may be used.

[Salas1]

Are there any more immature people like me who think it's funny that points of origin are being referred to as 'poos'?

[Jarnin]

I myself came up with the idea that the Earth constellations were based on the stargate, RATHER than the other way around. It would make more sense, in terms of the relationship between the Earth constellations and their stargate counterparts, especially given the supposed age of the stargate network, which predates the constellation configuration of modern times.

There's a problem with humans creating constellations in the sky based on symbols seen on the gate.
The earliest records of the constellations come from Mesopotamia dating back roughly 1000 BCE. We know that the Giza gate was buried in 3000 BCE, so you have a 2000 year span where there was no direct contact with the Stargate or the symbols on the gate.
So, if humans were drawing the Stargate symbols in the night sky (inventing modern constellations), they were doing it with no visual references at all.

The star patterns change over the aeons, thus it wouldn't make sense for the stargate symbols to be based on the constellations, just on that alone.

Actually the star patterns wouldn't change that much. A galactic year lasts 226 million years, and during that period stars sort of bob up and own like horses on a merry-go-round, but don't usually migrate very far inwards or outwards from the galactic core. In other words, constellations wouldn't change much unless you're talking about several galactic years (upwards of a billion years or more).

I agree that it is a massive plot hole to be using one of the coordinate symbols as a POO symbol. I suppose there might be a way to work it, but it is a bit odd. I think the prop people (or the writers) simply didn't take it into account. Such mistakes, I think are best ignored for those of us that like a certain degree of continuity in how things are supposed to work.

It's the graphic designers that come up with the various graphics displayed on the screens in the show that are to blame. They're also the ones who invented addresses that use the Earth PoO in the 6 symbol address, which can't happen since you'd only be able to dial those addresses from Earth. They also like to use Prometheus graphics for Daedalus class ships and so on.

I also did it in another thread, about Mathematics. I was trying to get any math wiz people to try and help me come up with a mapping system based on the stargate coordinate system. I came up with a pretty good one, but I still wasn't very satisfied with it, even though I had millions of potential stargates, with a reasonable spacing between the block grid in which I divided the galaxy.

Just curious, but what did you consider a reasonable spacing between block grids?
Technically speaking, you'd need to create 1,987,690,320 million cubes (no repeating symbols in an address) that covers 18,763,783,292,000 cubic light years (excluding the galactic core), which means each cube would be 9440 cubic light years, or ~3147 light years on each side. Of course since these cubes would be placed in a circular arrangement around the galactic core, the dimensions would change, but the volume would need to remain constant.

At any rate, it seems like a massive amount of volume for a single address. You wouldn't even be able to see any star systems with a gate from Earth without a telescope (of course Carter said as much in an episode I can't seem to remember).

[Seastallion]

There's a problem with humans creating constellations in the sky based on symbols seen on the gate.
The earliest records of the constellations come from Mesopotamia dating back roughly 1000 BCE. We know that the Giza gate was buried in 3000 BCE, so you have a 2000 year span where there was no direct contact with the Stargate or the symbols on the gate.
So, if humans were drawing the Stargate symbols in the night sky (inventing modern constellations), they were doing it with no visual references at all.

Keeping in mind we are in fact referring to a fictional show, there is no reason they couldn't have begun making drawings of the constellations long before 1,000 B.C. In fact, the origin of many constellations is unkown, with evidence suggesting their use as far back as 5,000 B.C. (Checked the Wiki to be sure... ). The point being that what is known by main stream historians in Stargate is largely wrong. The pyramids being landing pads for alien ships, and all that... Daniel was the 'fringe' guy being laughed at by mainstream academia, but was proven correct all along. It was in the episode 'Hathor' that it was also suggested that Daniel was studying ancient cross-culture polinization as well, after finding the Sarcophagus of Hathor in a Mayan temple. In stargate accepted world history is WAY off, which of course allows the writers great liberty in interpreting mythology in stargate fashion.

Actually the star patterns wouldn't change that much. A galactic year lasts 226 million years, and during that period stars sort of bob up and own like horses on a merry-go-round, but don't usually migrate very far inwards or outwards from the galactic core. In other words, constellations wouldn't change much unless you're talking about several galactic years (upwards of a billion years or more).

Good point. Makes that earth-centric thing just all the more interesting doesn't it... Why would every stargate in the galaxy be using Earth constellations..? Not that it matters. Fascinating conundrum though.

It's the graphic designers that come up with the various graphics displayed on the screens in the show that are to blame. They're also the ones who invented addresses that use the Earth PoO in the 6 symbol address, which can't happen since you'd only be able to dial those addresses from Earth. They also like to use Prometheus graphics for Daedalus class ships and so on.

True enough. Too bad they don't get with the writers more often, to prevent those sort of flaws. I suppose they have their hands full with a tight schedule anyways.

Just curious, but what did you consider a reasonable spacing between block grids?
Technically speaking, you'd need to create 1,987,690,320 million cubes (no repeating symbols in an address) that covers 18,763,783,292,000 cubic light years (excluding the galactic core), which means each cube would be 9440 cubic light years, or ~3147 light years on each side. Of course since these cubes would be placed in a circular arrangement around the galactic core, the dimensions would change, but the volume would need to remain constant.

At any rate, it seems like a massive amount of volume for a single address. You wouldn't even be able to see any star systems with a gate from Earth without a telescope (of course Carter said as much in an episode I can't seem to remember).

I can't remember it all of hand without going back over it again, as I haven't really thought about it much in the last several months. I do have it in the thread I created a link to in a post above. It was something like a cylindrical block, 1 to 3 lightyears across on the x and y axis, and I forget how much on the z. Like I said it is in the other thread.

* I checked the other thread, it was 1-ly x 3.6-lys x 1000-lys I'm still not happy with it, but it was the best I could come up with. Hopefully someone could come up with one better. The one I came up with still gives you just under 2 Billion possible combinations. I'd say that is pretty good, just not as good as I'd like.

[the_dark_light]

Good point. Makes that earth-centric thing just all the more interesting doesn't it... Why would every stargate in the galaxy be using Earth constellations..? Not that it matters. Fascinating conundrum though.

The reason is that the idea of the ancients building the gates was introduced in SG1. The symbols on the gates are a throwback to the movie. A consistancy problem with introducing such ideas.