BC-304 vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

[IcyNeko]

[ACharmedAsgard]

What's this for ^

you could just tell us

[theboywonder]

sd's are crap they couldnt do anything in any of the movies all that stuff from the sw books is just to glorify them

[fugiman]

I already asked this question, kind of. Here is the link

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...star+destroyer

Oh and I vote for SD because of its awsome firepower, experience of its crew in space combat, number of troops, hull plating (its thick) and its poewr source. So if the deddy went up against the a SD with out Unending upgrades (becuase the topic is the deddy not the oddy) then the SD would wins hands down

[Mister Oragahn]

I already asked this question, kind of. Here is the link

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...star+destroyer

Oh and I vote for SD because of its awsome firepower, experience of its crew in space combat, number of troops, hull plating (its thick) and its poewr source. So if the deddy went up against the a SD with out Unending upgrades (becuase the topic is the deddy not the oddy) then the SD would wins hands down

Sorry to sound blunt but do you read what people say, or are you going to hammer an opinion until it gets nailed into everyone's head?

Good luck.

[Dr. Who]

In several SW books it is mentioned that on ISD was capable of slagging an entire planet in a few hours. One ISD was also stationed in a system as a mobile base to put down revolts and resistance.

I would say the ISD would own the Deady unless the deady had the ZPM

[BlankDots]

If the acclamator class had 200 gigaton quad turbolasers.

Then a ISD definately would have more.

The technology is 30 years ahead, it'd make sense to have more powerful guns.

The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag
Imperial Sourcebook, p.61

You cant turn a planet into slag on just the 1-10 cm topsoil..

It just doesn't work like that when your guns are so powerful.

Its like saying detonating a bomb won't leave a crater. 1m i think is conservative. If you shoot even a ONE gigaton blast at the earth its sure not only to melt the ground but to leave MASSIVE crater.

Whiel in the movies they have not EXPLICITLY stated the turbo lasers at multigigaton range weapons have stated their power in other terms. For example the light ones which are 100 times smaller than the heavy turbolasers vaporized 40m wide asteroids.


On the SLAVE ship. The one that the Fett uses. this is an extract from a book that describes laser cannons. Which some people attribute to the tie fighter laser cannons, which are MUCH less than the turbo lasers. But for the benefit of the doubt we'll just SAY they are turbo lasers.

"the laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength".

There seems to be huge discrepencies in stargate. I remember that in the first few seasons what nukes could do NOTHING to the enemy hat'aks. Yet later on they seemed to be the primary arsenal.

Not to mention that a 800 gigtaon nuke (100mile blast radius) would have devestating effects. Has it occured that there would be an EMP in space? Who says that the daedy is sufficiently shielded. Plus the encounters between the daedy and enemy ships seem to be very very close, more like 1-10 kilometre engagements. This would mean that the daedy would be caught in the blast radius and destroyed. However we never see the daedy caught in the blast radius of a nuke.

Whats more the temperature is several million degrees. IN Echoes, When the daedy blocked the solar flares for a limited time, its shields started buckling. You might argue that a solar flare is 1000 terratons and therefore the daedy's shields are really powerful. Unfortunately this doesnt hold up for a few reasons, it only deflected the material, it didn't absorb all the energy/material. Also it didn't take on the entire solar flare only a bit of it. Otherwise if it could take so much damage, it might as well be able to fly through a sun, which it cant. Plus that was with a ZPM.

The daedy took a lot of thermal damage when it was exposed to the flare. I remember seeing that bits of the daedy started melting off.

Now by the same token a 800 gigaton nuke would have a fireball that would last a few minutes. No doubt the daedy would be destroyed by its own nuke. THe daedy always engages at short distances and plus, its sublight engines are very very weak, it might be maneuvarable but its engines are extremely slow. If you watch it in uneding, u'll see what i mean. It crawls away from the asgard home planet.

The ISD even if it has LOW gigaton weapons, which i doubt, it can still cause serious damage to the daedy. Many low gigaton turbolasers all add up to a high gigaton damage quota. Plus the daedy wouldn't be able to use its 800 gigaton nukes. It destroy itself in the process.

The only way i see the daedy winning is IF

it uses a ZPM and has the oddysey upgrades.

Without a ZPM, all it can do is jack all. Its railguns are completely useless and its shields won't be able to take even low gigaton shots.

Ha'tak type guns seem to be extremely weak. While they are claimed to be megaton range energy weapons. When they shoot they don't even demonstrate this power. Remember Jonas' home world. When they bombarded it, it was no way near the devastation of a nuke.

In fact if we compare a ISD to a hatak u can tell the difference. NO way in hell a ONE hatak or even a group of hataks could waste a civilized world in a week. They claim it has 200 megaton range per shot energy guns. This is from the episode when the go'auld attack earth in the alternate timeline. If the shots they demonstrated were megaton range, then the ISD has terraton range. LOL.

Obviously there are too big discrepencies in stargate to truly see how powerful their weapons really are.

[deadman]

We got more powerful nukes.

[Mister Oragahn]

In several SW books it is mentioned that on ISD was capable of slagging an entire planet in a few hours. One ISD was also stationed in a system as a mobile base to put down revolts and resistance.

I would say the ISD would own the Deady unless the deady had the ZPM

Let's get the references exact, otherwise you can say anything you wish to be true, but will fruitlessly remain dismissable.

[Mister Oragahn]

If the acclamator class had 200 gigaton quad turbolasers.

"If" being the key word. Let's see some proofs that it's correct.

Then a ISD definately would have more.

The technology is 30 years ahead, it'd make sense to have more powerful guns.

Why? the Empire is hardly seeing any major resistance, and by the time of the end of ROTS, the galaxy is nearly pacified and ready for a reign of terror.
No more major enemies.
New ship designs are one the way, but nothing proves that they have significantly improved firepower.
So let's see the proof.

The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag
Imperial Sourcebook, p.61

Imagery speaking. Figures of speech. Sometimes, metaphors.
The same book goes through a clear technical description about what a BDZ is, and it clearly does not talk about anything like that!
From the same page I linked to, here's the rest of what you omitted:

"System bombards are used when the Empire would rather completely destroy a world rather than see it fall into Rebel hands."
"System bombard contains an average of 100 ships divided between three bombard squadrons and a light squadron. If an admiral feels that force superiority has done less than a thorough job of removing hostile craft from the system, a system bombard squadron will be augmented with ships from the light squadron."

You're also forgetting the explicit, crystal clear, description of a BDZ in the Adventure Journal:

"Sir, what about bombardment? Is there a stage for that?"
"Blasting a planet from orbit is easy -- you don't need me to tell you how to do that. Limited orbital strikes would occur during the invasion stage. Just hope you are never given a Base Delta Zero order, lieutenant. Ah, yes, another question?"
"Sir, what's the Base Delta Zero order?"
"Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued. ...."

From the author's webpage:

This view is supported by the Star Wars Technical Journal of 1995, which makes reference to turning a planet's surface into "smoking debris". The problem comes with what is said after that . . . "a matter of hours".

Whiel in the movies they have not EXPLICITLY stated the turbo lasers at multigigaton range weapons have stated their power in other terms. For example the light ones which are 100 times smaller than the heavy turbolasers vaporized 40m wide asteroids.

Wrong.
1. The yield obtained from those calcs gave couples of megatons worth of firepower. You're not going to end with cannons suddenly able to spout hundreds of gigatons, or even teratons like claimed by certain ******s, for heavy cannons that do not get that bigger in comparison to the medium ones, in case you wanted to scale up firepower by looking at barrel calibers.
2. Those asteroids are not 40 meters wide. The person who did the scalings years ago made the huge mistake of taking the bolt's lenght instead of using its width. Using the lenght is a terrible method, as we've seen that lenght can actually vary during a bolt's travel, and above all, it was completely ****ed up since there was a 3/4 perspective in play (bolts getting longer when close to the camera, duh).
Using the width actually proved the asteroids to be clearly less than 10 meters wide, around 7~8 meters wide at best, in fact.

On the SLAVE ship. The one that the Fett uses. this is an extract from a book that describes laser cannons. Which some people attribute to the tie fighter laser cannons, which are MUCH less than the turbo lasers. But for the benefit of the doubt we'll just SAY they are turbo lasers.

"the laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength".

Yeah, a level of wank that's just the glaring attempt from a fanatized author trying to enforce figures which don't even mesh with insane claims made by the usual "inflators".
And of course, completely negated by AOTC, where we actually see the extent of the Slave I's bigger guns used against Obi-Wan's Jedi starfighter. Many bolts miss, and they instead hit fighter sized asteroids, only mainly breaking them and having a small portion of each asteroid actually melted.

Billions of light years away from the firepower claimed by that EU author.

That said, all standard fighter grade laser cannons have never dislayed yields even in the kiloton range, especially in films! Claiming gigaton level firepower for them is unsupported and contradictory. The author simply went crazy, hoped he could write anything stupid, be consistency damned.

There seems to be huge discrepencies in stargate. I remember that in the first few seasons what nukes could do NOTHING to the enemy hat'aks. Yet later on they seemed to be the primary arsenal.

Serpent's Lair. The general consensus, probably due to to fans being blasé of talking about this episode, is that it's a VFX ****up where the goa'uld busters didn't explode properly, and only got destroyed after hitting the shields, instead of getting the chance to actually trigger the nuclear reaction they were supposed to trigger.

As for the primary arsenal note, I don't get what you're talking about.

Enemies has shown several examples of impressive potent and shielding. First, with a ha'tak remaining close to a blue giant for one hour, unshielded, and said to be able to do that with shields up for ten hours.

Then, with such shield figures, we've seen how much energy Apophis' supership released when it exploded.

Finally, we could see the level of destruction caused by the crash of Cronos' ha'tak on Delmak's surface:



This is just in line with all other elements of evidence that prove that naqahdah based power sources have insane power:

Large asteroid having small nova capability if nuked with a 1 GT warhead deposited near the core;
Naq shipments able to blow up a whole chunk of a planet;
A few grams of unrefined naqahdah boosting a 375 KT nuke (if the Mark 12-A warhead is correct) to 1,000 megatons, at least;
A chain reaction that completely turns a planet into a plasma ball because of detonating a kiloton nuke on the surface of a world which still contained many traces of raw and refined naqahdah (probably due to the leftovers of heavy harvesting, exploitation and eventually industries);
One of Ba'al's exploding tricks wiping out billions of lives in an instant;
A small bomb requiring the complete evac of the whole Orange County state of California, etc.

... and with naqahdria, more powerful, which is at the very least, now able to turn a sidewinder sized missile into a warhead that will deliver 812 GT of pure hotness (and eventually, the reaction might have been improved to reach teraton levels).

Put it simply, Star Wars NEVER demonstrated anything as such.

It only gets a special and experimental Space Station the size of a small moon, able to destroy a planet, maybe with the help of power generators from the planet itself, and all that through weird reactions and delayed massive explosions.

It may take only a few seconds to obtain this effect for the Empire, but the Tok'ra only need one single small missile sized device fired in the magma of a planet to have it explode, after 12 minutes of a chain reaction.

And let's not talk about ZPMs going boom, completely dwarfing both of them.

Whats more the temperature is several million degrees. IN Echoes, When the daedy blocked the solar flares for a limited time, its shields started buckling. You might argue that a solar flare is 1000 terratons and therefore the daedy's shields are really powerful. Unfortunately this doesnt hold up for a few reasons, it only deflected the material, it didn't absorb all the energy/material. Also it didn't take on the entire solar flare only a bit of it. Otherwise if it could take so much damage, it might as well be able to fly through a sun, which it cant. Plus that was with a ZPM.

The daedy took a lot of thermal damage when it was exposed to the flare. I remember seeing that bits of the daedy started melting off.

For Echoes, check out this:

Clicky.

Now by the same token a 800 gigaton nuke would have a fireball that would last a few minutes. No doubt the daedy would be destroyed by its own nuke.

All depends by which shield estimations we go.

First, a gatebuster is not a focused device, so the Daedalus will only be exposed to a fraction of the total energy, which radiates omnidirectionally.
Secondly, the distance between the D and the nuke will matter a lot, due to inverse square law and shield area exposition.
Thirdly, depending on medium end shield estimations (1,140 GT for a ha'tak, Check out this post about wraith firepower derived from ha'tak shielding figures), a Daedalus, with standard shields and power cores, will actually be able to withstand several times the total energy of a gatebuster.

THe daedy always engages at short distances and plus, its sublight engines are very very weak, it might be maneuvarable but its engines are extremely slow. If you watch it in uneding, u'll see what i mean. It crawls away from the asgard home planet.

In that domain, ISDs have a good acceleration capability, but not better than the D's, and ISDs have horrible turning abilities, as evidenced by ESB (and yet we're talking about Vader's death squadron, hardly a bunch of amateurs - I suppose).

Ha'tak type guns seem to be extremely weak. While they are claimed to be megaton range energy weapons. When they shoot they don't even demonstrate this power. Remember Jonas' home world. When they bombarded it, it was no way near the devastation of a nuke.

Again, that argument.
Adressed here, and here.

In fact if we compare a ISD to a hatak u can tell the difference. NO way in hell a ONE hatak or even a group of hataks could waste a civilized world in a week. They claim it has 200 megaton range per shot energy guns. This is from the episode when the go'auld attack earth in the alternate timeline. If the shots they demonstrated were megaton range, then the ISD has terraton range. LOL.

Check the Ha'tak weaponry and shielding chapter please. An example of low end firepower, based on a low end shield figure.

Obviously there are too big discrepencies in stargate to truly see how powerful their weapons really are.

That's a common belief. Discrepancies are not that vast and numerous.

[Buba uognarf]

"If" being the key word. Let's see some proofs that it's correct.



Why? the Empire is hardly seeing any major resistance, and by the time of the end of ROTS, the galaxy is nearly pacified and ready for a reign of terror.
No more major enemies.
New ship designs are one the way, but nothing proves that they have significantly improved firepower.
So let's see the proof.



Imagery speaking. Figures of speech. Sometimes, metaphors.
The same book goes through a clear technical description about what a BDZ is, and it clearly does not talk about anything like that!
From the same page I linked to, here's the rest of what you omitted:

"System bombards are used when the Empire would rather completely destroy a world rather than see it fall into Rebel hands."
"System bombard contains an average of 100 ships divided between three bombard squadrons and a light squadron. If an admiral feels that force superiority has done less than a thorough job of removing hostile craft from the system, a system bombard squadron will be augmented with ships from the light squadron."

You're also forgetting the explicit, crystal clear, description of a BDZ in the Adventure Journal:

"Sir, what about bombardment? Is there a stage for that?"
"Blasting a planet from orbit is easy -- you don't need me to tell you how to do that. Limited orbital strikes would occur during the invasion stage. Just hope you are never given a Base Delta Zero order, lieutenant. Ah, yes, another question?"
"Sir, what's the Base Delta Zero order?"
"Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued. ...."

From the author's webpage:






Wrong.
1. The yield obtained from those calcs gave couples of megatons worth of firepower. You're not going to end with cannons suddenly able to spout hundreds of gigatons, or even teratons like claimed by certain ******s, for heavy cannons that do not get that bigger in comparison to the medium ones, in case you wanted to scale up firepower by looking at barrel calibers.
2. Those asteroids are not 40 meters wide. The person who did the scalings years ago made the huge mistake of taking the bolt's lenght instead of using its width. Using the lenght is a terrible method, as we've seen that lenght can actually vary during a bolt's travel, and above all, it was completely ****ed up since there was a 3/4 perspective in play (bolts getting longer when close to the camera, duh).
Using the width actually proved the asteroids to be clearly less than 10 meters wide, around 7~8 meters wide at best, in fact.



Yeah, a level of wank that's just the glaring attempt from a fanatized author trying to enforce figures which don't even mesh with insane claims made by the usual "inflators".
And of course, completely negated by AOTC, where we actually see the extent of the Slave I's bigger guns used against Obi-Wan's Jedi starfighter. Many bolts miss, and they instead hit fighter sized asteroids, only mainly breaking them and having a small portion of each asteroid actually melted.

Billions of light years away from the firepower claimed by that EU author.

That said, all standard fighter grade laser cannons have never dislayed yields even in the kiloton range, especially in films! Claiming gigaton level firepower for them is unsupported and contradictory. The author simply went crazy, hoped he could write anything stupid, be consistency damned.









Serpent's Lair. The general consensus, probably due to to fans being blasé of talking about this episode, is that it's a VFX ****up where the goa'uld busters didn't explode properly, and only got destroyed after hitting the shields, instead of getting the chance to actually trigger the nuclear reaction they were supposed to trigger.

As for the primary arsenal note, I don't get what you're talking about.

Enemies has shown several examples of impressive potent and shielding. First, with a ha'tak remaining close to a blue giant for one hour, unshielded, and said to be able to do that with shields up for ten hours.

Then, with such shield figures, we've seen how much energy Apophis' supership released when it exploded.

Finally, we could see the level of destruction caused by the crash of Cronos' ha'tak on Delmak's surface:



This is just in line with all other elements of evidence that prove that naqahdah based power sources have insane power:

Large asteroid having small nova capability if nuked with a 1 GT warhead deposited near the core;
Naq shipments able to blow up a whole chunk of a planet; a few grams of unrefined naqahdah boosting a 375 KT nuke (if the Mark 12-A warhead is correct) to 1,000 megatons, at least;
A chain reaction that completely turns a planet into a plasma ball because of detonating a kiloton nuke on the surface of a world which still contained many traces of raw and refined naqahdah (probably due to the leftovers of heavy harvesting, exploitation and eventually industries);
One of Ba'al's exploding tricks wiping out billions of lives in an instant;
A small bomb requiring the complete evac of the whole Orange County state of California, etc.

... and with naqahdria, more powerful, which is at the very least, now able to turn a sidewinder sized missile deliver 812 GT of pure hotness (and eventually, the reaction might have been improved to reach teraton levels).

Put it simply, Star Wars NEVER demonstrated anything as such.

It only gets a special and experimental Space Station the size of a small moon, able to destroy a planet, maybe with the help of power generators from the planet itself, and all that through weird reactions and delayed massive explosions.

It make take only a few seconds to obtain this effect for the Empire, but the Tok'ra only need one single small missile sized device fired in the magma of a planet to have it exploded, after 12 minutes of a chain reaction.

And let's not talk about ZPMs going boom, completely dwarfing both of them.



For Echoes, check out this:

Clicky.



All depends by which shield estimations we go.

First, a gatebuster is not a focused device, so the Daedalus will only be exposed to a fraction of the total energy, which radiates omnidirectionally.
Secondly, the distance between the D and the nuke will matter a lot, due to inverse square law and shield are exposition.
Thirdly, depending on medium end shield estimations (1,140 GT for a ha'tak, Check out this post about wraith firepower derived from ha'tak shielding figures), a Daedalus, with standard shields and power cores, will actually be able to withstand several times the total energy of a gatebuster.



In that domain, ISDs have a good acceleration capability, but not better than the D's, and ISDs have horrible turning abilities, as evidenced by ESB (and yet we're talking about Vader's death squadron, hardly a bunch of amateurs - I suppose).



Again, that argument.
Adressed here, and here.



Check the Ha'tak weaponry and shielding chapter please. An example of low end firepower, based on a low end shield figure.



That's a common belief. Discrepancies are not that vast and numerous.

Sorry but would you mind pointing out which post specifically i should be looking at from those links lol. I tried to find where it mentions Wraith weapon yields and the Goau'ld shielding chapter etc...but i don't want to search the whole thing thanks

[Mister Oragahn]

Sorry but would you mind pointing out which post specifically i should be looking at from those links lol. I tried to find where it mentions Wraith weapon yields and the Goau'ld shielding chapter etc...but i don't want to search the whole thing thanks

The fact is that you don't even want to click on those links.
Your own words betrayed you.

[Buba uognarf]

The fact is that you don't even want to click on those links.
Your own words betrayed you.

huh??? i'm confused i did click those links i read the entire page and found it at the bottom lol...

[Mister Oragahn]

Seriously, I don't see how it was hard to find host parts. The titles were written in bold orange, and the links directly linked to posts, not pages.
That said, I'm glad you've finally found them.

[MechaThor]

Did we not all have this arguement about the Odd vs a SD a few weeks ago?

There4 i am sure the outcome with the Daedalus would be the same as the outcome in the other thread inwhich i belive the SD was winning in a Figther vs Figther space conflict while the Odd won on a direct 1 on 1. (Am i right?)

However the daed not having the upgardes dose put it at more risk. There4 i would say SD. But the daed with the new class upgrades would win. like b4