Horizon

[Auralis]

Today's Earth (in real life) can't come close to demonstrating something that could shoot down the Horizon when all its warheads are together. Even in 100 years, I doubt humanity could come close doing that. I see two big flaws in relating anti-ballistic missile technology to the Horizon.

And i say you are definetly wrong about that.
Look up the Sprint/Spartan missiles of the 60s.
The sprint was so exact that they had to detune the targeting radar for it NOT to hit the missile.

[Atlantean Engineer]

And i say you are definetly wrong about that.
Look up the Sprint/Spartan missiles of the 60s.
The sprint was so exact that they had to detune the targeting radar for it NOT to hit the missile.

I was under the impression that they detuned the radar not because it was too accurate but because it violated the ABM treaty the US and USSR had. No missle defense = mutual destruction.

Besides, both those missiles were nuclear so they didn't have to get close, but the problem with them was that the blast blinded nearby radars so you couldn't get a confirmed kill (also pretty bad if there's one missile right behind the first). It also cost like millions to operate per day and wasn't financially feasible, so the US stopped funding the concept.

It still doesn't address the two reasons why I don't think its possible since SPRINT and SPARTAN both took on ballistic missiles and SPRINT was in atmosphere while SPARTAN was outside. Neither was ever designed to destroy a missile during re-entry.

You can make the argument the Asurans should've destroyed at least a few of the warheads after separation, but I was responding to a comment that it was silly to have a single missile carry all the smaller missiles as it entered the atmosphere. Sorry if that wasn't clear in my last post.

[PG15]

2: They wanted it to happen? What the horizon struck were not real ships. They were phantom vessels. False signatures. Essentially fed us false info (This certainly happens in real life military scenarios). I seriously doubt that they didn't know the Daedalus was monitoring their planet.

I think this is a possiblity quite overlooked on this board. Since the Asurans can replicate themselves, and built those shipyards in a matter of months, this little nuke strike would've just slowed them down a tad.

But, they can now blame us for attacking them first.

[Hyperwarp]

Today's Earth (in real life) can't come close to demonstrating something that could shoot down the Horizon when all its warheads are together. Even in 100 years, I doubt humanity could come close doing that. I see two big flaws in relating anti-ballistic missile technology to the Horizon.

1) The Horizon is far from ballistic. It is guided and powered, whereas intercontinental ballistic missiles are ballistic and unpowered through at least the middle 60% of its flight. Shooting down a missile with another missile is usually compared to hitting a bullet with another bullet. It's very difficult at best when you can calculate the approximate path of the missile. The Horizon is powered and guided throughout it's flight. It's like hitting a bullet with another bullet . . . except the 'target' bullet is moving in ways you can't predict.

2) All those links you show proves my original point since none of those intercepters attack the target missile during re-entry. Anti-ballistic missile methods consist of surface launched missiles (ships, missile silos, patriot, etc), space based weapons (railguns in space, brilliant pebbles concept), and airborne lasers (Boeing's ABL program). The ground and air based weapons only attack the missile while its being launched and while it's falling on its target. The space based ones can only take down a missile while its cruising unpowered outside of the atmosphere. None of the concepts I know of being developed IRL even try to take on a ballistic missile during re-entry.

First of all I have to say is, HUH? Since when did real life earth face the threat of the horizon? And where did I say real life earth can intercept that sort off system? I was talking of real life earth!. Not sci-fi earth. Distinguish between the 2! No stargate, no intergalactic battle cruisers, no shields, no hyperdrive, no beaming tech, no phase shifting tech, blah, blah, blah...........and off-course no Horizon! Us primitive earth! Real earth! The closest thing to the horizon seem to be the ICBMs with MIRVs and decoys! And primitive earth has demonstrated the capability (very limited but improving) to shoot down incoming warheads. Are we clear?

Now lets move to the Stargate world! Relatively Advanced Earth fires the Horizon into the Asuran Planet. But, who are the Asurans? They are practically artificial ancients. With incredible technological no-how. May not be right at the top of the food-chain, but pretty close. So, I have little doubt they would blow the Horizon right out of the planet! And, lets say the warheads separated. They could individually neutralize them. If real-life primitive earth can develop certain countermeasures to the threats they face, what do you think Asurans can do?

On a side note:

1) The Horizon is far from ballistic. It is guided and powered, whereas intercontinental ballistic missiles are ballistic and unpowered through at least the middle 60% of its flight. Shooting down a missile with another missile is usually compared to hitting a bullet with another bullet. It's very difficult at best when you can calculate the approximate path of the missile. The Horizon is powered and guided throughout it's flight. It's like hitting a bullet with another bullet . . . except the 'target' bullet is moving in ways you can't predict.

Primitive earth has demonstrated a somewhat similar capability. I am sure you have heard of MARV (MaRV). Maneuverable reentry vehicles. USA had them, and it is reported that the Chinese are heavily perusing them. These system are off-course shorter ranged ones. But, the russians, Mr. Putin himself said they had tested a very high-speed vehicle that could maneuver in orbit. Said it could defeat any missile defense shield. Though Some others say it just a MARV.

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/gbi.html
The Raytheon EKV is equipped with an infrared seeker, which is comprised of focal plane arrays and a cooling assembly attached to an optical telescope. The seeker software has to detect and track all incoming objects, discriminate warheads from decoys, and steer the EKV to a head-on collision with a target at closing speeds of more than 25700 km/h (16000 mph). The EKV's manoeuvering system, known as DACS (Divert and Attitude Control System), has four rocket thrusters around the vehicle's body. The vehicle weighs approximately 63 kg (140 lb), is 140 cm (55 in) long and about 60 cm (24 in) in diameter.

Primitive earth is also researching on high powered ground based lasers to shoot down incoming warheads. The Air-Borne Laser is just about start actual tests! Plus, there are already smaller lasers such THEL & MTHEL which have successfully shot down small rockets, artillery rounds and mortars.

So again, you can imagine what the Asurans would have up their sleeves?

[Atlantean Engineer]

What I'm trying to point out is that your statement that since we (IRL) currently have something that can shoot down ballistic missiles means that the Asurans (in the Stagate Universe) should be able to shoot down a guided missile during re-entry is a weak argument. Mostly for the reasons which I've already mentioned, so I'm not going to repeat it again.

Your quote of the infrared seeking capabiliteis of kinetic kill vehicles being developed by Raytheon are taken out of context. The homing is only done to make small changes (on the order of a degree or less) to the trajectory for inteception. This is to avoid hitting the decoys that split off from the re-entry vehicle or missing the incoming missile entirely. A guided missile would be impossible to track and meet head-on with a kinetic kill vehicle at the speeds these things are moving at, especially if the guided missile was programmed to detect and avoid the oncoming missile.

Lasers present a different problem, and I would agree that the Asurans should have been able to stop the warheads individually (I think I mentioned this in my last few posts) with lasers, but hitting the Horizon re-entry missile while all the warheads are together is a more challenging task. This is mostly because of the longer range required, the lag time associated with laser travel time, and the fact that there should be superheated plasma around the re-entry vehicle. Also, the whole missile is also powered and guided, so with the right software, it would be hard to hold a laser on it for more than a split second.

I never said that we faced anything like Horizon so I don't see where you're thinking I'm inferring that. Please read my post again. There are physical limitations that we (IRL) recognize in shooting down ballistic missiles, and these physical limitations probably can't be overcome by even the Asurans.

The Asurans are mortal beings with limited knowledge, not like ascended or Q from the StarTrek universe. They can't just throw things around on a whim.

[Argosy]

I’m with Atlantean Engineer…It would be pretty darn difficult/borderline impossible to hit a reentry vehicle during powered flight.

I believe something else people are overlooking is the fact that Naquadria warheads are not like conventional nukes. Naquadria’s inherent instability is what gives it the great destructive power that we have bore witness to on more than one occasion.

Any attempt at a hit to kill with a beam weapon or drone would result in a high order detonation that would blind their sensors from being able acquire a weapons lock on the other warheads, so in short most of them would have gotten through anyway.

What’s more, drones are visibly much slower than our missiles so it may be possible that they did launch drones from whatever silos they had left after the destruction of thier city ship, but they did not reach the warhead in time. All though I must admit it would have been nice to see a visual of said attempt.

Also something else to consider is the fact that the Lantean sensors are incapable of detecting a vessel unless it is on par with a Hive ship or City ship size wise, as we know from later half of season one and the first episode of season two that they could not detect ships the size of Wraith cruisers or the Daedalus until they drop out of hyperspace.

It’s very possible that the Asurian sensors suffer from the same drawback and they could not detect the earth vessels until they dropped out of hyperspace. This could help to explain why they were caught with their pants down during “First Strike”.

Also explains why Atlantis did not detect the satellite until it dropped out of hyperspace.

Just some food for thought.

[[SGC_ReplicÅtors]]

ok u do have some valid points but i like to point on this

First the Asurans and Humans from Earth are alot similair they are both building weps to destroy each other and also get this


When the satilite appeared the Atlantis team didn't do anything except raise the sheilds not knowing what it was meant for until a laser came out of it this type of behavior was also observed with the Asurans they probably saw the mother ship and watched it launch the horizon not knowing what it was before it was too late....

The Atlantis team and the Asurans had enough time to blow the attacks off from each other but like always they didnt know what it was meant for.

I mean The appollo was wacthing the sattilite just sitting there and i KNOW the Asurans have the capabilities to knock the horizon out of the sky

[J_B]

Well, there are some weird possible reasons I can come-up with, for the Asurans being clueless about the attack:

1: They inherited the overconfidence of the Ancients and said "Blah....those dumb humans can't hurt us"

2: They wanted it to happen? What the horizon struck were not real ships. They were phantom vessels. False signatures. Essentially fed us false info (This certainly happens in real life military scenarios). I seriously doubt that they didn't know the Daedalus was monitoring their planet.

I mean, simple question: would a super-advance, (let me rephrase that) super-super-advance civilization leave its newly built (or building) ships wide open for an attack???

1. To begin with of course they'd be over confident, they have all the knowledge, power, technology to defeat virtually any foe they come up against.

2. That doesn't make any sense at all! Why would they allow them to vaporize large portions of their planet. Why even worry about feeding them any false info, after all they knew where Atlantis was along along. The 304's couldn't handle a single Asuran warships, never mind 100's of Drones launched at it from the planet. Hence, there was no need to mis-lead them. They are considered a lower form of life, why give them such respect.

If they wanted to mis-lead them, then why not set a trap, when the 304 comes near them, they spring it & destroy it.

They gain nothing by allowing 6 nukes to blow up large chunks of their planet. After all, what did they do following it, they sent a sat weapon to Lantia. They could have done that months before!

It said, they knew where Earth was, they have the ability to get there & ships were being built. That's why they didn't bother with Atlantis. Why go after a single solitary Bee, when you can destroy the entire bee-hive.

If it was all part of the Asuran plan, why did they immediately send the sat weapon to Atlantis for revenge. It was many months after the events of 'TRII', why the need tow ait until they nuke your planet. After all, the enemy ship that delivered the payload was back at Atlantis before the weapon even arrived. So they gained nothing at all! Therefore it wasn't the case.

The perceived Earth to be a bigger threat, if your having problems with a small minority of Earthlings, then you go to the source & cut the head of the snake. Therefore it cuts off Atlantis from all the possible resources it would get from Earth if needed. It traps them in Atlantis with nowewhere else to turn to, no home planet to run back to when things get tough. Therefore, makes it easier to turn to when they know Earth is out of the picture.

As to the simple question about leaving them wide open. Simple answer:Yes

Watch 'Small Victories', you'll see the Asgard leaves their most powerful warship lying exposed to potential Replicator infestation. Even in S9 of SG-1, we see the Ori ships lying out being built, where the resistance tried to blow them up. Sometimes races who are too overconfident in their own abilities can overlook the potential threat of doing such things. However it's their domain, their own backyard. Someone directly assaulting them right on their home planet would probably be too far feteched for them to even consider. Building them on an off-world secret base leaves them far more exposed because they are weaker there in any potential efforts to resist any attacks that may occur. On their own planet, they have all their people, tech & resources at their disposal constantly. A much more formidable option to attack them head on on their own patch.

Simply put, they didn't see a threat. A direct assault on their planet was probably the last thing they ever expected. They've been Wraith free for 10,000 years, 10,000 years of nobody bothering you kinda gets the invincible confident part of the personality going. They thought they were invulnerable, in a direct assault, virtually nobody would survive it. They have unlimited power sources, uber shields, Drones, enbergy weapons, ships & all the rest.

Perhaps they also were a little too confident in their own sensors to detect enemy ships approaching.

Lastly as to Daedalus monitoring their planet, how do you not know they done exactly the same as in 'First Strike'. Have Daedalus sit back in a safe position, send in a cloaked Jumper to take the necessary shots. It goes back out to the pickup point, docks back with Daedalus, then the 304 jumps back into HS. All done without them having any idea.

Another alternate solution is what they do with Atlantis. They took a cloak from a PJ, then expanded it to cover the whole of Atlantis. Who's to say they didn't park a PJ in the hangar bay, tie it into the ship with the help of McKay, Zelenka & Hermiod. Turn on the cloaking generator & expand it to cover the entire ship. Making it totally invulnerable to Asuran sensors.

Another one is that they drop out of HS for a fraction of a sec, immediately take a snap, then jump right back into HS. It may be so quick that they don't even know what was happening, maybe they even thought it was a glitch or whatever if they were monitoring it at the time.

There are a few ways in which it could easily take shots without the Asurans automatically knowing it was there.

Put it this way, what makes more sense. Have a vastly inferior ship be allowed to take regular shots of your planet, exposing ships being constructed in order to attack their home planet. Then allow them to nuke all those ships & large parts of your planet. Immediately after allow the ship to go back to Atlantis, then decide to immediately attack. Somehow that's one of the most illogical series of events that I've ever seen.

If they knew Daedalus was snapping them, don't you think they'd have either tried to capture it, or Drones it's ass to death. The fact they didn't & couldn't manage to stop Horizon, points to the fact that they were caught off guard & unprepared.

[wise one]

most likely they were caught off gaurd

and that they thought of themselves as far superior than earth, and plus they didnt know that was weapon that could vapourize large sections of cities

the time they ever new about nukes was in return 2 when they said discovered earth plan to destroy atlantis

only when they realised that what had happened they took revenge

plus apollo captain said that they want to exit hyperspcae with the bomb doors bays open once they exit hyperspace they would not be qiuckly attacked or if anything attacking them when they exit

[Argosy]

It’s a distinct possibility that they intended to strike earth with the war ships and Atlantis with the satellite as a simultaneous coordinated strike, but with their ships out of the equation and ship building capacity lost with their shipyards then it became only logical to go after the only earth outpost within striking distance with what they had left.

[wise one]

It’s a distinct possibility that they intended to strike earth with the war ships and Atlantis with the satellite as a simultaneous coordinated strike, but with their ships out of the equation and ship building capacity lost with their shipyards then it became only logical to go after the only earth outpost within striking distance with what they had left.

thats qiute a nice theory, i think in progeny they said that they offering advice in tactical planning but the council didnt heed their advice thus ended up destroying them.

our everyday computers can play chess against a normal person on its own and imagine what a nano robot can do

[Hyperwarp]

1. To begin with of course they'd be over confident, they have all the knowledge, power, technology to defeat virtually any foe they come up against.

2. That doesn't make any sense at all! Why would they allow them to vaporize large portions of their planet. Why even worry about feeding them any false info, after all they knew where Atlantis was along along. The 304's couldn't handle a single Asuran warships, never mind 100's of Drones launched at it from the planet. Hence, there was no need to mis-lead them. They are considered a lower form of life, why give them such respect.

If they wanted to mis-lead them, then why not set a trap, when the 304 comes near them, they spring it & destroy it.

They gain nothing by allowing 6 nukes to blow up large chunks of their planet. After all, what did they do following it, they sent a sat weapon to Lantia. They could have done that months before!

It said, they knew where Earth was, they have the ability to get there & ships were being built. That's why they didn't bother with Atlantis. Why go after a single solitary Bee, when you can destroy the entire bee-hive.

If it was all part of the Asuran plan, why did they immediately send the sat weapon to Atlantis for revenge. It was many months after the events of 'TRII', why the need tow ait until they nuke your planet. After all, the enemy ship that delivered the payload was back at Atlantis before the weapon even arrived. So they gained nothing at all! Therefore it wasn't the case.

The perceived Earth to be a bigger threat, if your having problems with a small minority of Earthlings, then you go to the source & cut the head of the snake. Therefore it cuts off Atlantis from all the possible resources it would get from Earth if needed. It traps them in Atlantis with nowewhere else to turn to, no home planet to run back to when things get tough. Therefore, makes it easier to turn to when they know Earth is out of the picture.

As to the simple question about leaving them wide open. Simple answer:Yes

Watch 'Small Victories', you'll see the Asgard leaves their most powerful warship lying exposed to potential Replicator infestation. Even in S9 of SG-1, we see the Ori ships lying out being built, where the resistance tried to blow them up. Sometimes races who are too overconfident in their own abilities can overlook the potential threat of doing such things. However it's their domain, their own backyard. Someone directly assaulting them right on their home planet would probably be too far feteched for them to even consider. Building them on an off-world secret base leaves them far more exposed because they are weaker there in any potential efforts to resist any attacks that may occur. On their own planet, they have all their people, tech & resources at their disposal constantly. A much more formidable option to attack them head on on their own patch.

Simply put, they didn't see a threat. A direct assault on their planet was probably the last thing they ever expected. They've been Wraith free for 10,000 years, 10,000 years of nobody bothering you kinda gets the invincible confident part of the personality going. They thought they were invulnerable, in a direct assault, virtually nobody would survive it. They have unlimited power sources, uber shields, Drones, enbergy weapons, ships & all the rest.

Perhaps they also were a little too confident in their own sensors to detect enemy ships approaching.

Lastly as to Daedalus monitoring their planet, how do you not know they done exactly the same as in 'First Strike'. Have Daedalus sit back in a safe position, send in a cloaked Jumper to take the necessary shots. It goes back out to the pickup point, docks back with Daedalus, then the 304 jumps back into HS. All done without them having any idea.

Another alternate solution is what they do with Atlantis. They took a cloak from a PJ, then expanded it to cover the whole of Atlantis. Who's to say they didn't park a PJ in the hangar bay, tie it into the ship with the help of McKay, Zelenka & Hermiod. Turn on the cloaking generator & expand it to cover the entire ship. Making it totally invulnerable to Asuran sensors.

Another one is that they drop out of HS for a fraction of a sec, immediately take a snap, then jump right back into HS. It may be so quick that they don't even know what was happening, maybe they even thought it was a glitch or whatever if they were monitoring it at the time.

There are a few ways in which it could easily take shots without the Asurans automatically knowing it was there.

Put it this way, what makes more sense. Have a vastly inferior ship be allowed to take regular shots of your planet, exposing ships being constructed in order to attack their home planet. Then allow them to nuke all those ships & large parts of your planet. Immediately after allow the ship to go back to Atlantis, then decide to immediately attack. Somehow that's one of the most illogical series of events that I've ever seen.

If they knew Daedalus was snapping them, don't you think they'd have either tried to capture it, or Drones it's ass to death. The fact they didn't & couldn't manage to stop Horizon, points to the fact that they were caught off guard & unprepared.

I certainly can agree with notion that they were way too confident of their own capabilities and were caught off guard or even unprepared like the ancients with wraith. The rest of the post I'll respond later. Out of time right now.

[Auralis]

What I'm trying to point out is that your statement that since we (IRL) currently have something that can shoot down ballistic missiles means that the Asurans (in the Stagate Universe) should be able to shoot down a guided missile during re-entry is a weak argument. Mostly for the reasons which I've already mentioned, so I'm not going to repeat it again.

No, it is not a weak argument. Its a logical projction of the abilities of asuran technology.

Your quote of the infrared seeking capabiliteis of kinetic kill vehicles being developed by Raytheon are taken out of context. The homing is only done to make small changes (on the order of a degree or less) to the trajectory for inteception. This is to avoid hitting the decoys that split off from the re-entry vehicle or missing the incoming missile entirely. A guided missile would be impossible to track and meet head-on with a kinetic kill vehicle at the speeds these things are moving at, especially if the guided missile was programmed to detect and avoid the oncoming missile.

Not impossible, just harder. Or are you trying to say fighter planes can't be shot down either, because they are not flying on predicable paths?
there is nothing stoping one from making the kill vehicle slf guided as well.

Lasers present a different problem, and I would agree that the Asurans should have been able to stop the warheads individually (I think I mentioned this in my last few posts) with lasers, but hitting the Horizon re-entry missile while all the warheads are together is a more challenging task. This is mostly because of the longer range required, the lag time associated with laser travel time, and the fact that there should be superheated plasma around the re-entry vehicle. Also, the whole missile is also powered and guided, so with the right software, it would be hard to hold a laser on it for more than a split second.

Lag time? you are joiking right?
a laser moves at the speed of light, duh, which is ~300.000km/sec
Given that the vehicle is inside the atmosphere well below 300km hight, the lag is 1/1000th second.

I never said that we faced anything like Horizon so I don't see where you're thinking I'm inferring that. Please read my post again. There are physical limitations that we (IRL) recognize in shooting down ballistic missiles, and these physical limitations probably can't be overcome by even the Asurans.

The Asurans are mortal beings with limited knowledge, not like ascended or Q from the StarTrek universe. They can't just throw things around on a whim.

sure they limitations can be overcome by the azurans. And are infact overcome regulary.
Inertial dampeners, high power energie weapons, ftl sensors etc etc ec.

[Atlantean Engineer]

No, it is not a weak argument. Its a logical projction of the abilities of asuran technology.

That's based on your assumptions, and ability also doesn't equal usage. Just because we can make trains travel well over 150 mph doesn't we're going to implement that technology. There's a tradeoff in safety, cost, energy, materials, etc., that we aren't willing to make. The same goes for Asuran technology. They may have the know-how, but they might not have built the ability because the likelihood of that happening in their point of view was miniscule and not worth the effort.

Not impossible, just harder. Or are you trying to say fighter planes can't be shot down either, because they are not flying on predicable paths?
there is nothing stoping one from making the kill vehicle slf guided as well.

*sigh* Please, don't make claims on things you don't know about. Missiles work against fighter planes because they explode. Kinetic kill vehicles aren't used against fighter planes because even if they're guided and home in on the target, they don't have the manuverability at the required "kill" speeds to hit something that dodges like a fighter jet. The same goes for the Asurans using drones or other ground launched weaponry during re-entry. The drones are relatively slow compared to a re-entry vehicle. The differences in speeds greatly affects how easy it is for one thing to hit another.

Lag time? you are joiking right?
a laser moves at the speed of light, duh, which is ~300.000km/sec
Given that the vehicle is inside the atmosphere well below 300km hight, the lag is 1/1000th second.

You're using the speed of light in a vacuum, which is higher than the speed of light in. Nevertheless, they're pretty close. I wasn't clear when I said laser travel time I guess. The lag/travel time I'm talking about would be the movement of the laser to track the target. The reaction speed of the targeting computer, speed of the sensors to analyze data, and the gymbals that the laser would be mounted on would be the main factors, not speed of light in air.

However, ignoring that issue, which could probably be overcome by better technology, there are two huge problems with your assumption that they could use lasers on a re-entry vehicle. The super heated plasma will most likely not let the laser through. It would add energy to the plasma surrounding the re-entry vehicle, but since air enters and exits the plasma field, most of the energy would be carried away by convection anyways. Picture a plastic water bottle held in place in a fast moving river. If you put a hot piece of metal that's continually heated 2" away from the plastic, would you expect the plastic to heat up much? It depends on the power of the laser (how hot the metal piece is) and how fast the missile is moving (how fast the river is flowing). Considering that we're talking about the speed of a re-entry vehicle, that laser would have to be extremely powerful.

That kindof leads me to the second issue. If you assume that the Asurans have a high enough powered laser to cut through the plasma field, and to go 100-200km up, they would have something that could basically carve their name on the nearest moon. If you have that much power, that far up in the atmosphere from ground level, there's not much stopping the beam after that. If they could do that, they might as well carve their names in the engine core of the Deady or Odyssey. It's an unrealistic thing to put in a sci-fi show, which has to be based somewhat in reality.

sure they limitations can be overcome by the azurans. And are infact overcome regulary. Inertial dampeners, high power energie weapons, ftl sensors etc etc ec.

That may be true, but the problem with all sci-fi is that there are limitations that producers and writers have to put on technological advancement. If the asurans truly had advanced to the level of inertial dampeners, near infinite power soruces, etc., then the battles and confrontations with us would be completely different than what we're used to and most likely laughably short.

From what's been shown on the Stargate shows, it seems very unlikely that the Asurans have the capability to shoot down a re-entry vehicle without another vehicle chasing it. They would probably need to think and react 100 times faster than humans, have much more foresight, and implement their advanced technology in ridiculously sick ways. We've seen none of this, because the TPTB realize that it wouldn't be much of a show if any enemy did this.

You can't base Asuran capabilites by saying that "they're so much more advanced and have X technology so they should be able to do Y, and Z that we can't do. It should be based on the capability of what's been demonstrated on the show.

[VSHARMA]

My 200 post.