Hyperdrive Technology Thread

[JoseP927]

I think this is a better illustration, IMO:

Hyperspace (or subspace) is the space between the fold where the throat goes through. The wormhole could be one created by a hyperdrive, a stargate, or a naturally occurring one (from a collapsed star for example).

[boberth2o]

I think this is a better illustration, IMO:

Hyperspace (or subspace) is the space between the fold where the throat goes through. The wormhole could be one created by a hyperdrive, a stargate, or a naturally occurring one (from a collapsed star for example).

what program did you design that with?

[Seastallion]

I'm actually working on a web-umentary about Hyperdrives for my webpages on Stargatesg1.com. Let me first begin by saying that NONE of us completely understand how it works, but I think that some of us DO have a better idea of it than others. I'll try and explain what I understand about it as much as possible.

Hyperspace, or Subspace??? Which is it???-

There IS a difference, but it may be a little more subtle than most are thinking. Hyperspace is in fact an aspect of Subspace, that only occurs during the artificial manipulation of subspace by a hyperdrive. Hyperspace is the pocket within subspace that the ship itself is traveling in. The 'tunnel' effect caused by the operation of the hyperdrive is called the 'hyperspace corridor'. The tunnel effect is caused by the intense focused energy emitted by the hyperdrive that literally 'tunnels' or 'digs' through subspace. The space within the tunnel is 'hyperspace'. The space 'outside' the tunnel is subspace. Those are the basic differences between the two terms.

A 'Hyperspace Window' is the 'tear' in the fabric of normal space that gives a ship passage into subspace. Subspace might be described as another layer or dimension of normal space through which gravitational effects are translated. It may also be used by means of artificial manipulation of gravity for hyperluminal transportation (such as hyperspace or wormholes), or even for hyperluminal communications. I will revisit subspace communications later. The biggest question is probably how such a 'tear' could be created in the first place.

We do know of at least one natural source of such 'tears' already. Or at least in theory it is. Blackholes. The immense and brutal gravitational strength of the nearly infinitely dense star (or blackhole), creates a gaping hole in normal space. The problem is, that the intense gravity waves generated by the blackhole tear everything apart long before it would ever actually reach the hole itself. Remember Carter and Teal'c in 'The New Order' when they went to visit Thor? Same thing. Also, the tear is kept open by the incredible mass of the blackhole, and will not dissipate quickly. That might seem like a dead end, but there is more than one kind of blackhole. There are in fact different types, both in size and function. Another theoretical type of blackhole is created not by mass, but by energy. Vacuum energy that is... (ZPM anyone? Vacuum Energy, or Zero Point Energy, might be described as the fluctuations within subspace, not at all unlike the ripples and waves on water. Those waves and ripples also have to do with how one might use subspace to communicate. More on that later.) These blackholes are beyond microscopic in size and duration. Theoretically, they are always appearing and dissappearing in normal space all around us, all the time. They are far too small to see, and even if they weren't they dissappear so quickly your eyes would never catch them anyways. They are created by the energy fluctuations in subspace, but they do not last long because there is nothing to anchor them and their effects, unlike a massive blackhole caused by superdense matter.

It is not unlike the differences between a large sucking whirlpool with a constant source keeping it active, and a very tiny one that gets created as the result of random conflicting currents in the water, which dissappears in an instant almost as quickly as it was created. These are useful analogies because they help us see the literal differences between the blackholes and the effects they have in the different layers of space. One might say that the different layers of space, are sort of like the different currents in the sea. They are all part of the same body, but have different properties. It helps to think of space as being a great ocean of water. The different layers of space are like the different layers of water in the sea. There are currents, and streams, even if they aren't readily apparent. Unlike the sea, you can't just dive in and down into the other layers of space. One might say, we're too 'bouyant'. We were meant to exist in what we would call 'normal' space, and thus we can not naturally reach those other layers. As usual though, there are loopholes that could allow us to do so. The hyperdrive.

The Hyperdrive uses properties of both types of blackholes to create a stable, but temporary 'tear' in the fabric of space. (You may notice that I will alternate between the analogies of comparing space to woven cloth and ocean waters. The reason is because they are useful in describing different effects in the different layers of space.) The hyperdrive uses a massive amount of controlled gravitational energy to create these 'tears'. The gravitational energy that results from planets, stars, and other celestial bodies are uncontrolled and natural. In nature, the gravitational energy is spread out over a very wide area of space, and thus its full potential force is diluted. It is not unlike a man lying down on a bed of nails. The man is unharmed because his weight is evenly distributed across the many nails. In the same way, a planet's gravity is evenly distributed across a large area of space. Now if you were to take that same man, and place his full weight upon a single nail, it would puncture his skin and be driven deeper into him. In a similar way, the full gravitational force of a planet, if focused on a very small area of space might then cause a 'puncture' or 'tear' in the 'skin' or fabric of space itself.

Okay... that sounds reasonably simple, except for one little hitch in the plan. The problem is... how do you manipulate gravity??? That is the real question. Well, science has a few theories on that too. It has long been questioned if electromagnetic energy could be converted into gravitational energy. There does seem to be a relationship between the two forces, and there have been claims that one can indeed by translated into the other, or at least a form of the other. One recent real life example is the work of Dr. Ning Yi. She has built a prototype device made of a high-temparture superconducting ceramic disc shaped like a donut. It sort of looks like a big black magnet. (I hear Jack already... "I knew it!" ) It can generate a force field that can both attract AND repulse objects regardless of what they are made of. It acts just like gravity in that respect and is NOT magnetism, even though it uses electricity to work. It is still in the experimental stages, and not ready for practicle application. Theoretically however, it could be used to generate artificial gravity on spaceships, deflector shields (like the deflector dish on the Enterprise on Star Trek), or even inertial dampners.

Another little understood or known theory is based on the work of an Einstein contemporary, german scientist Burkhard Heim. He theorized the possibility of Hyperspace travel, and even designed an experimental engine that might make it work. It was never built by him though. Essentially, it used a very powerful electromagnetic coil, with a spinning ring atop of it that would convert the electromagnetic energy into theoretical particles he called 'gravito-photons' that would act as a transitionary particle between electrons and the theoretical 'gravitons'. Gravtions are a part of quantum mechanics that deals with how gravity works. In any case, the engine would theoretically allow a spaceship to travel in hyperspace to reach distant places in dramatically shorter time frames. With current technology, a trip to Mars would take about 6 months; theoretically, with a Heim hyperdrive the trip would take about 3 hours. Big difference.

It should be noted that the manipulation of gravitational energy that allowed you to get into hyperspace in the first place must be kept on to STAY in hyperspace. The hyperdrive not only allows you to get into hyperspace, it also is the mechanism by which you travel through hyperspace. The Hyperspace Corridor is the result of the continued operation of the Hyperdrive engine. When you want to go back to normal space, you 'simply' turn off the hyperdrive. The ship itself normally exists in 'normal' space, and thus that is the natural place for it to be. The different quantum properties between the ship and subspace literally pull the ship right back into normal space, once the hyperdrive is no longer keeping it from occuring. It's sort of like holding onto a scuba-propeller while wearing a life-vest. It will pull you under the water, but as soon as it shuts off, you will be pulled back to the surface again.

Now, once your in hyperspace... how do you navigate? Well this part is a bit trickier. As far as I can tell at the moment, you have to point your ship in the direction you want to go while in normal space, then activate your hyperdrive. You would then stay in hyperspace for a predetermined amount of time based on how fast your ship can travel while in hyperspace. There might also be sensors that would detect the gravitational effects of nearby stars so that you know where going, since you can't actually 'see' anything around you. Sort of like how submarines travel underwater. They use sonar, listening to the sound beneath the waves. A ship in hyperspace might use a similar device that would 'listen' to the fluctuations in hyperspace. This would allow the ship to make more precise determinations of how fast they are travelling, and about when they need to drop out of hyperspace to avoid ramming into a planet or star when they leave hyperspace. This all will allow you to drop in and out of hyperspace safely enough, but it is unclear how much you can actually manuever while in hyperspace itself.

Of course getting into that is getting into the particulars of hyperdrive design, which I think might be possible at least in theory. I have a few ideas about how the design of one might look, and also the differences between the 'normal' hyperdrive used by most races in Stargate, and the 'super' hyperdrives used by the Asgard. I'll get into that on a later post, IF there is interests. Also, as a side note, the gravitational field generated by the hyperdrive can also be used to create a 'bubble' of subspace around the ship, which provides for various possibilities. Carter used this function to escape the nebula in 'Grace'. I think, that what she essentially did was to unfocus the gravitational field that would normally create a hyperspace window, and just allowed it to curve back around sort of like a magnetic force line coming back to its source. This created a bubble that took the ship just out of normal space time. The manipulation of THAT field is how the Warp Drive on Star Trek works. Different methods of propulsion, but similar basic principles.

So in a nutshell- You have to manipulate a large amount of gravitational energy into a focused beam onto an area of space, creating a temporary tear into subspace. You must then keep up the gravitational manipulation to remain in subspace, until your ready to come back out again.

Okay one last thing... Subspace Communications-

It isn't really all that different from Radio, except that it uses gravity generated ripples or waves in subspace (created by a Subspace Transmitter), instead of EM radiation. Essentially, you create unnatural and recognizable patterns of waves that can be detected by a Subspace Receiver device. Those ripples travel in all directions in a very specific pattern (usually encrypted) that can be detected and converted into recognizable video, audio, or text messages by whoever has the proper decryption keys. If you recall the Tok'ra mentioned that they didn't use the devices because they weren't secure. That is why. The subspace transmitters travel in all directions, so if you have the proper decryption keys, you can find out what is being transmitted no matter where you are.

Hopefully, all that will be helpful.

[JoseP927]

what program did you design that with?

None. It came from Wikipedia.

[WTFOwned]

I think this is a better illustration, IMO:

Hyperspace (or subspace) is the space between the fold where the throat goes through. The wormhole could be one created by a hyperdrive, a stargate, or a naturally occurring one (from a collapsed star for example).

Yes, that's exactly how I explained it.
Fold space, rip a hole, go through it.
Then after that, you seal the hole (or it just dissipates) and you unfold space time.

Edit:
Oh yes, and for naturally occurring wormholes, a "black hole" is the "in" and a "white hole" is the "out". The first appears black because all light is being sucked into like a vacuum cleaner. The latter is white because all the light from the first is coming out of it.

[Seastallion]

Good grief. After that very detailed and lengthy explanation, NO ONE has anything to say? Geez... *sigh*

[boberth2o]

Good grief. After that very detailed and lengthy explanation, NO ONE has anything to say? Geez... *sigh*

If you think about it some of the stuff that you said doesnt make sense.

[Seastallion]

UMMMMMMMMMMM... if you think about it some of the stuff that you said doesnt make sense.

Really? Such as?

[boberth2o]

We do know of at least one natural source of such 'tears' already. Or at least in theory it is. Blackholes

BlackHoles do not 'tear' hole in our layer of space time it is an intense gravitational field that compresses att matter down to the size of an atom, but it does bend space, like a marbel on a bed sheet. If they did why are black holes super heavy, that would go against all the rules of general relativity. Otherwise it would be a drain for matter.



Here is the geometry of a blackhole





Now with quantium theory its different. Normally, quantum field theory models are considered in flat Minkowski space (or Euclidean space), which is an excellent approximation for weak gravitational fields like those on Earth. In the presence of strong gravitational fields, the principles of quantum field theory have to be modified. The spacetime is static so the theory is not fully relativistic in the sense of general relativity; it is not background independent nor generally covariant under the diffeomorphism group. The interpretation of excitations of quantum fields as particles becomes frame dependent. Hawking radiation is a prediction of this semiclassical approximation.
If you dont believe my check it out-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole

The Hyperdrive uses properties of both types of blackholes to create a stable, but temporary 'tear' in the fabric of space. (You may notice that I will alternate between the analogies of comparing space to woven cloth and ocean waters. The reason is because they are useful in describing different effects in the different layers of space.) The hyperdrive uses a massive amount of controlled gravitational energy to create these 'tears'. The gravitational energy that results from planets, stars, and other celestial bodies are uncontrolled and natural

Hyperspace has nothing to do with gravity, if you were to use massive amount of controlled gravitational energy your ship ans hyperdrive would collaspe in on itself. and you cant say its coming from subspace because you have not accessed that dimension yet.

Now here, is Hyperspace

Hyperspace theories are concerned with theoretical systems that have more than the familiar three spatial dimensions. Hyperspace theories are largely a mathematical theory but their developers often attempt to make them of use to physicists. Hyperspace theorists generally believe that the laws of nature are simpler in higher dimensions.

Superstring theories are a particular class of hyperspace theories that are of interest to physicists who are attempting to find a fundamental physical theory that unites all known physical forces and particles. Such hyperspace theories suggest the possibility that everything in the universe can be described in terms of fundamental physical components that vibrate within the constraints imposed by the multiple extended and compact dimensions of hyperspace.

There is a completely separate class of hyperspace theory where "hyperspace" is generally seen as the flat space 'above' (ie faster than) ordinary space. These are called 'Flat hyperspace' theories because they generally assume that space is completely flat and rigidly tied at three spatial dimensions that are fixed in dimensionality up to the largest scales. In most of these theories time is regarded as a single point and not seen as a separate 'dimension'. Obviously gravity cannot then be explained by spatial curvature and another explanation is needed - one method is to allow local inertial frames that can accelerate relative to each other, other possibilities include quantum theories of gravity which are based on things like gravitons or quantum states. These hyperspace theories obviously conflict with some parts of relativity, and are not generally seen today as part of mainstream science. We must remember however that Quantum mechanics and Relativity themselves also have severe incompatibilities. Even today though we find people using a notional version of flat hyperspace at least in astronomy, where it makes thinking about the universe far easier. Astronomers constantly consider distances and measurements of light years and greater even though by definition these are vastly outside the light cone of space and strictly don't exist.


Spacetime

In physics, spacetime is a mathematical model that combines three-dimensional space and one-dimensional time into a single construct called the space-time continuum, in which time plays the role of the 4th dimension. According to Euclidean space perception, our universe has three dimensions of space, and one dimension of time. By combining space and time into a single manifold, physicists have significantly simplified a good deal of physical theory, as well as described in a more uniform way the workings of the universe at both the supergalactic and subatomic levels.

In classical mechanics, the use of spacetime over Euclidean space is optional. In relativistic contexts, however, time cannot be separated from the three dimensions of space as it depends on an object's velocity relative to the speed of light

[Seastallion]

^ I don't have time to do a lengthy reply right now, but I will do it tomorrow. Right now, I have to go to bed, because I have to work tonight. I'm already up later than usual. Till then...

[boberth2o]

^ I don't have time to do a lengthy reply right now, but I will do it tomorrow. Right now, I have to go to bed, because I have to work tonight. I'm already up later than usual. Till then...

^ok

[Seastallion]

BlackHoles do not 'tear' hole in our layer of space time it is an intense gravitational field that compresses att matter down to the size of an atom, but it does bend space, like a marbel on a bed sheet. If they did why are black holes super heavy, that would go against all the rules of general relativity. Otherwise it would be a drain for matter.



Here is the geometry of a blackhole





Now with quantium theory its different. Normally, quantum field theory models are considered in flat Minkowski space (or Euclidean space), which is an excellent approximation for weak gravitational fields like those on Earth. In the presence of strong gravitational fields, the principles of quantum field theory have to be modified. The spacetime is static so the theory is not fully relativistic in the sense of general relativity; it is not background independent nor generally covariant under the diffeomorphism group. The interpretation of excitations of quantum fields as particles becomes frame dependent. Hawking radiation is a prediction of this semiclassical approximation.
If you dont believe my check it out-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole





Hyperspace has nothing to do with gravity, if you were to use massive amount of controlled gravitational energy your ship ans hyperdrive would collaspe in on itself. and you cant say its coming from subspace because you have not accessed that dimension yet.

Now here, is Hyperspace

Hyperspace theories are concerned with theoretical systems that have more than the familiar three spatial dimensions. Hyperspace theories are largely a mathematical theory but their developers often attempt to make them of use to physicists. Hyperspace theorists generally believe that the laws of nature are simpler in higher dimensions.

Superstring theories are a particular class of hyperspace theories that are of interest to physicists who are attempting to find a fundamental physical theory that unites all known physical forces and particles. Such hyperspace theories suggest the possibility that everything in the universe can be described in terms of fundamental physical components that vibrate within the constraints imposed by the multiple extended and compact dimensions of hyperspace.

There is a completely separate class of hyperspace theory where "hyperspace" is generally seen as the flat space 'above' (ie faster than) ordinary space. These are called 'Flat hyperspace' theories because they generally assume that space is completely flat and rigidly tied at three spatial dimensions that are fixed in dimensionality up to the largest scales. In most of these theories time is regarded as a single point and not seen as a separate 'dimension'. Obviously gravity cannot then be explained by spatial curvature and another explanation is needed - one method is to allow local inertial frames that can accelerate relative to each other, other possibilities include quantum theories of gravity which are based on things like gravitons or quantum states. These hyperspace theories obviously conflict with some parts of relativity, and are not generally seen today as part of mainstream science. We must remember however that Quantum mechanics and Relativity themselves also have severe incompatibilities. Even today though we find people using a notional version of flat hyperspace at least in astronomy, where it makes thinking about the universe far easier. Astronomers constantly consider distances and measurements of light years and greater even though by definition these are vastly outside the light cone of space and strictly don't exist.


Spacetime

In physics, spacetime is a mathematical model that combines three-dimensional space and one-dimensional time into a single construct called the space-time continuum, in which time plays the role of the 4th dimension. According to Euclidean space perception, our universe has three dimensions of space, and one dimension of time. By combining space and time into a single manifold, physicists have significantly simplified a good deal of physical theory, as well as described in a more uniform way the workings of the universe at both the supergalactic and subatomic levels.

In classical mechanics, the use of spacetime over Euclidean space is optional. In relativistic contexts, however, time cannot be separated from the three dimensions of space as it depends on an object's velocity relative to the speed of light

Ultimately, it is all THEORY. None of it is proven, and at best it is just popular in academia. I don't think too highly of academia too often. They can be closed to new ideas, and overly-protective of the old ones. That isn't to say that some 'old' ideas aren't right, just that they should always be up for debate. I can't claim to know too much about it, but I'm currently interested in Heim Theory right now. It allows for the possiblity of hyperspace travel, and the guy even designed a theoretical hyperdrive engine. He was VERY popular back in the day, but because of severe disabilities (caused by a lab accident in his youth) he shunned the spotlight. As a result he went into relative obscurity, along with his theories. He was a contemporary of Einsteins, and Godard was VERY interested in his ideas about potential hyperspace travel.

I'm not saying the guy was right, I'm just saying he's got some very interesting ideas, that I think merit further research. Unfortunately, many in academia would rather bash his theories than actually study them to find out how relevant they are. In his hyperdrive engine design he himself used an artificial gravity generation machine to move into and through hyperspace. At least as far as I understand it he did.

As far as Hyperspace and Subspace go, they are all theoretical and there are alternate versions of each, both in science and science fiction. Here, we are dealing with sci-fi, so I've taken my own ideas from what I know in science and applied them to what is supposed to be happening in the fiction. We could go round and round all day long about which theory is better, or more accepted, or has more evidence, or... etc. etc. etc. I'm not going to do that. My post about hyperdrive technology was NOT meant to be a scientific paper on the subject, rather a detailed explanation of how it might possibly work.

As to the whole 'bowling ball on a mattress' analogy... I am very well aware of it, and in fact it had a LOT to do with my description about the focused potential of a gravitational field such as what a planet might have. The big difference being that a planet's gravity well occurs in all three dimensions, not just the two in the analogy. It is also theorized that gravity's effects are translated into other dimensions, and that that is why gravity seems so weak. In other words, its power is being diluted because it is working in more than just the three dimensions we exist in. It is because of that theory that some have surmised that gravity could be the key to creating a portal into other dimensions. But... like I said. It is all theory. No one is going to prove anything here.

[Zeus]

Ultimately, it is all THEORY. None of it is proven, and at best it is just popular in academia. I don't think too highly of academia too often. They can be closed to new ideas, and overly-protective of the old ones. That isn't to say that some 'old' ideas aren't right, just that they should always be up for debate. I can't claim to know too much about it, but I'm currently interested in Heim Theory right now. It allows for the possiblity of hyperspace travel, and the guy even designed a theoretical hyperdrive engine. He was VERY popular back in the day, but because of severe disabilities (caused by a lab accident in his youth) he shunned the spotlight. As a result he went into relative obscurity, along with his theories. He was a contemporary of Einsteins, and Godard was VERY interested in his ideas about potential hyperspace travel.

I'm not saying the guy was right, I'm just saying he's got some very interesting ideas, that I think merit further research. Unfortunately, many in academia would rather bash his theories than actually study them to find out how relevant they are. In his hyperdrive engine design he himself used an artificial gravity generation machine to move into and through hyperspace. At least as far as I understand it he did.

Finally someone that thinks the way I do about academia and the fact they are so, in-effect closed minded to any new ideas. Chalking them up to sudo sceince. I can understand if once tested the results are negative but to dismiss it out right with out testing like so often it is done and warning the said scientist that their carrears will be ruined. Just proves to me the human race at the moment are nothing but selfish, and we wont get anywhere with the current thinking. It seems like creativity has been lost in high academia and i beleave i read somewhere the Einstein regarded science as an art, legend has he came up with his theory of relativity in a dream , not through just pure mathmatics. My two pennies

[Seastallion]

Finally someone that thinks the way I do about academia and the fact they are so, in-effect closed minded to any new ideas. Chalking them up to sudo sceince. I can understand if once tested the results are negative but to dismiss it out right with out testing like so often it is done and warning the said scientist that their carrears will be ruined. Just proves to me the human race at the moment are nothing but selfish, and we wont get anywhere with the current thinking. It seems like creativity has been lost in high academia and i beleave i read somewhere the Einstein regarded science as an art, legend has he came up with his theory of relativity in a dream , not through just pure mathmatics. My two pennies

Einstein claimed that imagination was FAR more important than raw intelligence. It is the people who can imagine the extraordinary that will come up with the next great leaps in science and technology. Teleportation was just an idea that Rodenberry came up with as a way to save his budget, and now it has not only been proven that teleportation as a principle is possible, but it has even been done. Granted, it was a subatomic particle, but none the less, the principle itself was proven possible on a basic level. As far as it is known, NOTHING is impossible, only highly improbable. All in all, I like to think that anything might be possible given enough time and information. I'd like to believe that the interstellar civilizations of our fiction could be, or become fact. At the moment, we've still got a long ways to go. It just makes me laugh when some people try to say that there aren't any great scientific discoveries left. What do they know? Nothing.

[VolrathEvincar]

Einstein claimed that imagination was FAR more important than raw intelligence. It is the people who can imagine the extraordinary that will come up with the next great leaps in science and technology. Teleportation was just an idea that Rodenberry came up with as a way to save his budget, and now it has not only been proven that teleportation as a principle is possible, but it has even been done. Granted, it was a subatomic particle, but none the less, the principle itself was proven possible on a basic level. As far as it is known, NOTHING is impossible, only highly improbable. All in all, I like to think that anything might be possible given enough time and information. I'd like to believe that the interstellar civilizations of our fiction could be, or become fact. At the moment, we've still got a long ways to go. It just makes me laugh when some people try to say that there aren't any great scientific discoveries left. What do they know? Nothing.

Yea, but the point is that this theory is based in fact, it wasn't just a shot in the dark. I mean, "energize"? Energize what? What are they talking about? Ultimately someone compensated for that mistake and came up with a whole new theory about how the transporter, like the coding of our molecular structure into a massive hard drive, then transferring that data to another hard drive. Kind of Stargatesque. The point is, Roddenberry is creative, and other people fill in the blanks. Stargate is built on theory, not imagination. Doesn't Amanda Tapping read astrophysics books in her spare time?

But if you ask me, we should just try reversing the polarity. Or maybe it has something to do with the quantum emitter?