So many hive ships are blowing up. Do the wraith need a super hive ship? Thoughts?

[eye of sauron]

Non-canon assumption. The military was using the "mark" designation long before the implementation of naquadah.



That makes no sense. That's like saying that you can't armor a tank, because otherwise people wouldn't be able to get out.



Man, these design flaws are just all over the place.



Apples and oranges situation.

regarding the dart bay they werent heavily armoured,beacuse they have to be able to open and close to allow dart operation , it makes no sense to add heavy weight to what are basicaly giant doors. the structural strenght of the dart bay is also lower then the rest of the ship given they are massive hanger with mostly empty space insted of bulkheads that block explosions. the main armour belt is probely inside the wraith ship built there to prevent weapons form demaging vital equipment e.g engine power generaters.

regarding waive effictiveness aginst ancients.

they are probely easier to produce then ancient warships so had a missive numerical superiorty. Given the backward tech of the wraith the waive ship is preety effictive. they overcome th elack of fire power by packing as many wraith energy cannon as possible. Its massive size and thick armour also some protection.why bother with shields and clocks if ancient senors and still see you and ancient dornes and still blow you up, the reasource save form these reduction can be put into building more ships a factor that probely allowed the wraith to outbuild the ancients.

[Schrodinger82]

regarding the dart bay they werent heavily armoured,beacuse they have to be able to open and close to allow dart operation , it makes no sense to add heavy weight to what are basicaly giant doors.

Uh, yeah it does, since those are your entrances and exits.

So apparently a Wraith ship can move faster than light and (supposedly) fire in the multi-gigaton range. But lifting an armored door? Why, that's physically un-possible!

And just out of curiousity, if it doesn't make anything to armor up the doors in your world, then how much sense does it make to make it so that these same unarmored doors are capable of secondary explosions? What in the world does that solve?

[eye of sauron]

Uh, yeah it does, since those are your entrances and exits.

So apparently a Wraith ship can move faster than light and (supposedly) fire in the multi-gigaton range. But lifting an armored door? Why, that's physically un-possible!

And just out of curiousity, if it doesn't make anything to armor up the doors in your world, then how much sense does it make to make it so that these same unarmored doors are capable of secondary explosions? What in the world does that solve?

1. explosion werent caused by the entrances, mostly likely they were caused by the fuel and ordance stored in there( and on board the darts that are being launched)

2. a hanger is weaker structeraly then the rest of the ship due to the fact that most of room is taken up by the aircrafts( in this case darts) the house there, additional room is require is needed as amintiance space and storege facility for fuel ordance etc. this means that insted heavy framing, subdivision,bulkhead and sealed conpartment which can support a heavy layer of armour you get a large open space that can support much.

a modern day example would be the flight deck of a aircraft carrier which has little ( 1-3 inch) if any armour

off course this dosent rule out the haives having some sort of internal armour
that explodes drone before they reach vital compartments inside the ship like engine, power generaters etc.

having the hangers damage dosent reely reduce much combat effictiveness form the havie as its main weapon is energy cannons. the darts are only used to cull people. the weight saved this way can be used to improved more critical areas e.g more weapons, thicker armour on the engien compartment, or carry more darts

[Schrodinger82]

1. explosion werent caused by the entrances, mostly likely they were caused by the fuel and ordance stored in there( and on board the darts that are being launched)

First off, I seriously doubt they use conventional fuel tanks. But even if they did, why in the world would you not shield your fuel tanks?

2. a hanger is weaker structeraly then the rest of the ship due to the fact that most of room is taken up by the aircrafts( in this case darts)

And how much weaker are you talking? Wouldn't the lack of room simply encourage them to invest their strongest materials in these areas?

having the hangers damage dosent reely reduce much combat effictiveness form the havie as its main weapon is energy cannons. the darts are only used to cull people.

Which is their entire reason for existence.

[eye of sauron]

First off, I seriously doubt they use conventional fuel tanks. But even if they did, why in the world would you not shield your fuel tanks?



And how much weaker are you talking? Wouldn't the lack of room simply encourage them to invest their strongest materials in these areas?



Which is their entire reason for existence.

why would anyone build the hull of their captial ship out of a commubstiable material? that leaves only fuel for the darts and the ordance they carry.

I highly doubt that you can shield a fuel tank (on dart) from rail gun rounds how do you preserve the tank if the fighter is destroyed ?

it not the lack of space i am talking about, a hanger is basicaly a large empty room inside the ship because most of the space in side it is used to store aircraft there are less room for renforcing frame, bulkhead , compartment

a haive ahip is built as the captial ship of the wraith is ment to take on the ancients. fighting quality( number of energy cannon, speed , thickness of armour over critical area) would most likely be put over culling ability

[Schrodinger82]

why would anyone build the hull of their captial ship out of a commubstiable material?

Could be a result of the biology. Hive ships are the result of evolution. Rodney comments that even their software is incredibly bloated from legacy systems, so I don't see any reason why the physiological properties would be any different.

I highly doubt that you can shield a fuel tank (on dart) from rail gun rounds

Apparently you can't shield the tank from regular rounds either.

a haive ahip is built as the captial ship of the wraith is ment to take on the ancients.

With sheer numbers. Even an old and busted Ancient ship with no shields and limitted power has no no trouble taking out a hive ship in a single salvo, without even needing someone with the ATA gene to operate the controls. Armor is irrelevant.

[eye of sauron]

Could be a result of the biology. Hive ships are the result of evolution. Rodney comments that even their software is incredibly bloated from legacy systems, so I don't see any reason why the physiological properties would be any different.



Apparently you can't shield the tank from regular rounds either.



With sheer numbers. Even an old and busted Ancient ship with no shields and limitted power has no no trouble taking out a hive ship in a single salvo, without even needing someone with the ATA gene to operate the controls. Armor is irrelevant.

in WWII the germany tiger and panther tanks are supreior to the Russian T-34 yet they were enentualy overwhelmed by a flood of cheap massproduced T-34s. the relationship bewten the wraith and ancients are the same.The ancients produces a small amount of high end military equipment. The wraith mass produce their most EFFITIVE weapon system. why bother puting on cloaks and shields if ancient senores can still see and ancient drones can still blow you up.the reaspurce saved from these thing can be used to build additional ship during the war the wraith mostly likely avoided puting in improvements that does not speed up production this is probely the reason why a wraith ship is so crude.

in the war the haive ahip probely operated in fleets too large for a small number ancients ship to combat effictively. sure they can destryo some haives but the remaining wraith will still destroy them. given the ancients small population and ship numbers the wraith will envetualy win.

wraith hulls are not flamble otherwise whenever railgun rounds hits them they will be on fire, we know that form previous F304 haive ship battle that they dont work that way.

also you do know a protected fuel tank works by preventing additional fuel for leaking out not stoping them from exploding right?

also the organic nature of the wraith ship is an advantage in war as it reduce maintiance the ship simply repires its self.

[Ouroboros]

Caldwell waited in no mans land for the Hive to open it's launch bays and start launching darts before he ordered the railguns to open fire on the open bays. The railguns slugs were shooting inside the ship at that point and the helm guy even confirmed it was secondary explosions that resulted.

Like eye of sauron up there said, they hit some sort of stored ordnance or fuel that the darts use and set it off. This is also the same thing Ford and crew said they were hoping to accomplish with their infiltration of the hive in lost boys.

It's certainly not something that should be taken to mean that a 304 is going to beat a hive with any repeatable regularity. If they'd just opened their bays on the other side instead or simply not bothered to launch darts at that precise moment everyone on the Daedalus would be dead right now. They got lucky, real lucky.

Once they run out of missiles all the 304s can hope to do is try to pick off weakspots like that hyperdrive one. That's not going to stop the hive blowing your ship to pieces though and it's evidently not even very hard to undo (if it even actually works) since a bunch of humans were able to fix it easier than they could their own ship after the battle. Remember how in Misbegotten it was the hive towing the Daedalus back to Atlantis through hyperspace for extensive repairs, not vice versa?

It's also worth noting that the hive that ate the nuking was the same one that laid into the Orion and eventually blew it up and then moved on to the Daedalus.

Sure the Orion was damaged but so was the hive by that point.

[Schrodinger82]

Caldwell waited in no mans land for the Hive to open it's launch bays and start launching darts before he ordered the railguns to open fire on the open bays.

He didn't "wait." They told him that the Hive was launching darts, and he reacted accordingly to nip it in the bud. Up til that moment, they were trying to explore other options.

Like eye of sauron up there said, they hit some sort of stored ordnance or fuel that the darts use and set it off. This is also the same thing Ford and crew said they were hoping to accomplish with their infiltration of the hive in lost boys.

Which basically means that their fuel tanks are pretty weak, despite being accessible from outside fire.

Remember how in Misbegotten it was the hive towing the Daedalus back to Atlantis through hyperspace for extensive repairs, not vice versa?

They didn't even have a consistent source of oxygen on the Daedalus, of course repairs are going to take longer.

It's also worth noting that the hive that ate the nuking was the same one that laid into the Orion and eventually blew it up and then moved on to the Daedalus.

Sure the Orion was damaged but so was the hive by that point.

The Orion had no defenses and no way of firing back.

The Hive ship still had it's guns, and while it's hull might have been damaged, it's completely irrelevant, since the Orion once against had no way of firing back.

[Buba uognarf]

Non-canon assumption. The military was using the "mark" designation long before the implementation of naquadah.

But in stargate it implies naquadah enhanced for example the mark IX...

That makes no sense. That's like saying that you can't armor a tank, because otherwise people wouldn't be able to get out.

sorry i rushed what i said before, someone else has already said what i meant to say but i'll say it again...

the deadalus fired into the dart bays only after they were opened so once the dart bays are open they're vulnerable and they caused secondary explosiona...

caldwells words were..

"standby all rail guns lock weapons on the dart bay..." caldwell

dart bays open

"sir the bays are opening" other guy

"fire!" caldwell

thats basically what he said...so his whole plan and only chance was to fire into the unarmored inside of the dart bay seeing as the armor is too thick to do any damage anywhere else...

Man, these design flaws are just all over the place.

not really there's one that know of...we don't know where the window was, and if it was built into the armor then it would mean that the empty space would cushion the rest of the ship from attacks seeing as the blast would hit the first layer but not spread to the second...

First off, I seriously doubt they use conventional fuel tanks. But even if they did, why in the world would you not shield your fuel tanks?

the inside of the ship is vulnerable to seoncdary explosions like most ships and besides there were thousands of rounds pouring into the dart bay...

And how much weaker are you talking? Wouldn't the lack of room simply encourage them to invest their strongest materials in these areas?

yeah but its still not going to be as strong as the rest of the ship...

Could be a result of the biology. Hive ships are the result of evolution. Rodney comments that even their software is incredibly bloated from legacy systems, so I don't see any reason why the physiological properties would be any different.

hives didn't evolve they're not alive, they use both organic and unorganic matierals the organic parts were most likely bio engineered...

With sheer numbers. Even an old and busted Ancient ship with no shields and limitted power has no no trouble taking out a hive ship in a single salvo, without even needing someone with the ATA gene to operate the controls. Armor is irrelevant.

it's better than using shields in this case and it took hundreds of drones to destroy it and we all know how could the drones are penertrating armor and ships etc...for all we know it may have taken hundreds of drones to even drill through the armor...

Which basically means that their fuel tanks are pretty weak, despite being accessible from outside fire.

not really...it was hit by rail gun fire which is not weak just unable to pierce the armor on hiveships...

The Orion had no defenses and no way of firing back.

The Hive ship still had it's guns, and while it's hull might have been damaged, it's completely irrelevant, since the Orion once against had no way of firing back.

that doesn't change the fact that a severerely damaged hiveship could waste time destroying an ancient warship and batter the deadalus

[Schrodinger82]

But in stargate it implies naquadah enhanced for example the mark IX...

If it was implied, then why would they find it necessary to ever mention it post season one? (As what happened in Fail Safe, Chain Reaction, Siege Part 2, and with Naquadriah in Beachhead.). In Reckoning, they mention using a 10 kt nuke on SGC. Was that Naquadah enhanced too?

the deadalus fired into the dart bays only after they were opened so once the dart bays are open they're vulnerable and they caused secondary explosiona...

Which makes you wonder why they would leave such highly vulnerable systems so close to the entrances. Poor design.

caldwells words were..

"standby all rail guns lock weapons on the dart bay..." caldwell

dart bays open

"sir the bays are opening" other guy

"fire!" caldwell

I stand corrected. Still, it doesn't change the fact that it still shows that the wraith are incredible poor designers to leave those systems exposed any time the doors were opened.

not really there's one that know of...we don't know where the window was, and if it was built into the armor then it would mean that the empty space would cushion the rest of the ship from attacks seeing as the blast would hit the first layer but not spread to the second...

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

yeah but its still not going to be as strong as the rest of the ship...

So some areas of your ships can supposedly withstand multi-gigaton nukes, while systems as important as the hyperdrives can't even withstand 1/1,000,000,000th of that. Makes sense?

hives didn't evolve they're not alive, they use both organic and unorganic matierals the organic parts were most likely bio engineered...

And those organic materials are the product of evolution. Wraith engineering skills are fairly limitted, even bioengineering.

that doesn't change the fact that a severerely damaged hiveship could waste time destroying an ancient warship and batter the deadalus

So a 15 year old fat kid with a crowbar and a limp is facing off against a former 80 year old Navy Seal who's currently quadrapelegic in a non-functioning wheelchair. The 15 year old hits the former Navy Seal in the head multiple times, who eventually dies.

That proves that the 15 year old fat kid is badass, because he managed to beat a NAVY SEAL in combat. Also, it was a fair fight, since he had a limp at the time, showing that they were both injured.

[Buba uognarf]

If it was implied, then why would they find it necessary to ever mention it post season one? (As what happened in Fail Safe, Chain Reaction, Siege Part 2, and with Naquadriah in Beachhead.). In Reckoning, they mention using a 10 kt nuke on SGC. Was that Naquadah enhanced too?

No because it didn't have a mark designation...the mark designation means naquadah enhanced...

Which makes you wonder why they would leave such highly vulnerable systems so close to the entrances. Poor design.

who says it was close to the door??? wraith dart bays are huge the rail guns simply fired straight through into the ship...

I stand corrected. Still, it doesn't change the fact that it still shows that the wraith are incredible poor designers to leave those systems exposed any time the doors were opened.

they weren't exposed they were internal systems...

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

your right...lol it is abit hard to understand

So some areas of your ships can supposedly withstand multi-gigaton nukes, while systems as important as the hyperdrives can't even withstand 1/1,000,000,000th of that. Makes sense?

i never gave a yield all i said was it was naquadah enhanced, the hyperdrives as i've said were exposed no armor, they were able to fire directly at the hyperdrives the main body of ship is far stronger...

And those organic materials are the product of evolution. Wraith engineering skills are fairly limitted, even bioengineering.

sorry but thats rubbish (not being rude), the wraith are the most advanced bio engineers in the stargate universe (that we've seen), the wraith bio engineer their ships are you telling me the organic materials and structure of the hive ship appear naturally???

The wraith bio engineer the organic compotents hive ships don't grow in the wild...

and if they're such poor engineers then how did they reverse engineer ancient intagalactic hyperdrives in a matter of hours...

So a 15 year old fat kid with a crowbar and a limp is facing off against a former 80 year old Navy Seal who's currently quadrapelegic in a non-functioning wheelchair. The 15 year old hits the former Navy Seal in the head multiple times, who eventually dies.

That proves that the 15 year old fat kid is badass, because he managed to beat a NAVY SEAL in combat. Also, it was a fair fight, since he had a limp at the time, showing that they were both injured.

thats not what i was saying at all, what i said was a crippled hive ship was able to destroy an ancient warship and cripple the deadalus...

a more accurate comparisson would be...

So a 15 year old fat kid with a crowbar who's been shot in the leg with a shotgun, faces off against a former 80 year old Navy Seal who's currently quadrapelegic in a non-functioning wheelchair. The 15 year old hits the former Navy Seal in the head multiple times, who eventually dies.

the crippled 15 year old then fights and beats a 10 year old in full body armor armed with a pen knife to a stalemate and still comes of better

[Mister Oragahn]

Actually, looking at the time it takes for darts from leaving their docking zone to reach the exit mouth shows that the sensible stuff is not close to the entrances.
Only a chain reaction of explosions, destroying each dart, one on one, and going back inside the ship that way would cause a massive problem.

As for the nuke designation, the mark has nothing to do with naqahdah or not. The first nukes fired at the Goa'uld were Mark 12-A, which already exist under such a name IRL, but those in SG were simply enhanced with naqahdah.

[Dark Falcon]

that doesn't change the fact that a severerely damaged hiveship could waste time destroying an ancient warship and batter the deadalus

IMO, the hive ship wasn't wasting time destroying the Orion because
if it focused all of it's power on the Deadalus, the Orion would have
launched another salvo of drones at the Hive ship, effectively destroying
it. The hive ship was probably reacting to the sudden destruction
of its friend; the other hive ship. To get a good understanding
of this situation, try to put yourself in the hive ship's shoes. (Figure of
speech.) If you saw a powerful enemy that just eliminated
one of your allies, you have a feeling that that same enemy can do
the same to you, and you have the power to stop him, you're not going
to take any chances. You will want to take the strongest enemy
out ASAP.

What I'm trying to say is that the hive ship probably took the right
course of action to target the Orion because it most likely
recognized the Orion as a bigger threat than the Deadalus.

[Buba uognarf]

IMO, the hive ship wasn't wasting time destroying the Orion because
if it focused all of it's power on the Deadalus, the Orion would have
launched another salvo of drones at the Hive ship, effectively destroying
it. The hive ship was probably reacting to the sudden destruction
of its friend; the other hive ship. To get a good understanding
of this situation, try to put yourself in the hive ship's shoes. (Figure of
speech.) If you saw a powerful enemy that just eliminated
one of your allies, you have a feeling that that same enemy can do
the same to you, and you have the power to stop him, you're not going
to take any chances. You will want to take the strongest enemy
out ASAP.

What I'm trying to say is that the hive ship probably took the right
course of action to target the Orion because it most likely
recognized the Orion as a bigger threat than the Deadalus.

you misunderstand the hive was right to target the orion wat i was getting at is that a crippled hive ship can spend time destroying an ancient warship and then also cripple the deadalus