Ship Scaling Sprites

[Jarnin]

Im not buying the whole 400m SuperGate with for Camelot.

There was no discussion in the episode saying something along the lines of "this super gate is alot bigger than the last one".

First of all, they completely changed its scale just to make it more menacing.

Along with shrinking the Ha'taks and O'Neill class ships. Gee, you think it was a total visual effects screwup? Ah, it can't be a total visual effects screwup, because the director and producers have to ok the visual effects...

IMO, I'd rather go for a big and menacing Ori ship than some Prometheus sized ship.

That's crap. What scares you more, the ebola virus or a great white shark? Size doesn't matter if the end result is the same.

Anyway, a small ship that can take out a Ha'tak in a shot or two would be far more impressive than a massive ship that can take out a Ha'tak in a shot or two. When it comes to technology, smaller is better. The Japanese prove that.

Someone Posted Before That Maybe The Smaller Supergate Is Constructed To Send Through The Alkesh Size Sections..And that those sections created the S U P E R gate in Camelot...

I can disprove that easily. If the supergate in Camelot required another, smaller supergate to send its segments through, then where is the smaller supergate? The segments don't appear to have hyperdrive capability (why would they?), so if there were a smaller supergate, it would be in the same solar system as the one the ships came through.

i reacon the peices expand. Meaning bigger ships can fit through. like the toilet seats.

Are you suggesting that the segments expand, or the gate expands? The gate expanding might be a possibility, but since there was no mention of the supergate in Camelot being any different than the one in Beachhead, there's no evidence to support your conjecture.

OR/AND its a different kind of super-gate, with more pieces.

Screen captures will prove that they have the same amount of segments.

Plus, if you look at Carter when the Supergate is opening, you get some sense of scale of the thing as the camera is looking over her shoulder. Based on the size of the block that she's beside, that monster is a LOT bigger than 400m.

We've already established that the visual effects guys screwed with the scaling of the Ha'taks and O'Neill ships, so them making the supergate 10 times the size it was in Beachhead is just another screw-up to add to the list.

What you saw in Camelot is a perfect example of a show that takes the intelligence of the viewers for granted in order to get more "wow-factor".

Yeah, the Ori ships make the O'neill look like a frigate/destroyer compared to them...those things have to be quite massive, especially taking into account the size of the individual Supergate peices and the number of them.

I'll say it again; the visual effects guys messed with the scale of objects in the episode Camelot. Why nobody can seem to remember that is blowing my mind.

Why is it when the show screws up, people fall over themselves to come up with a excuse for them? Why can't we all agree that the producers sometimes make continuity mistakes in order to make the story more dramatic? The writers, producers and visual effects guys don't care about continuity, they care about ratings.

If bigger means better to the viewers, they'll make ships the size of a planet so viewers will say "Wow!".

My sig is so appropriate here, it's not even funny.

[Peoples_General]

That's crap. What scares you more, the ebola virus or a great white shark? Size doesn't matter if the end result is the same.

Anyway, a small ship that can take out a Ha'tak in a shot or two would be far more impressive than a massive ship that can take out a Ha'tak in a shot or two. When it comes to technology, smaller is better. The Japanese prove that.

Do you have super-vision or something that enables you to SEE a nano-scopic virus? I doubt it.

You also have to consider than the Ori ships are big because they CARRY SOLDIERS. The Ha'Tak has a capacity of about 1,000 troops, I'd imagine the Ori ships have much a much larger carrying capacity than the Ha'Taks

[Mister Oragahn]

Just jumping in.
I'm not sure about it, but is it written somewhere that the supergate modules can't form bigger gates if necessary?
How are they bound together? They clamp to each other, right? Can the "docking" arms of each module actually slightly change in angle to form a bigger gate if necessary?

Anyway, wouldn't make lots of sense since the first supergate was supposed to send ori battleships anyway.
Visual screw up?

[Pasankoon]

i counted 42 components in the second ori supergate. 42x5=210. (the gate is 5m in diametre). 210/pi=66.85m. therefore even carters estimate was wrong even if u consider a spacing of a component leangth between components (giving 133.7m). Far short of 300-400m.

[Mister Oragahn]

Exact.
Do the modules exactly touch each other, or are they clamped by some sort of energetic field? Or do they fold out?

To offer a diameter of 300 to begin with, a module would need to be more than 22 meters large.
This would actually fit with the idea that a tel'tac could be squeezed within the space between the module 1 and the module 3 (n and n+2), taking the place of module 2.

Plus what's the size of one of these modules when about to hit the ships in Beachhead? They're aren't that small, are they?

So it does seem that they could flod out, or inflate (lousy explanation if the modules do not change in shape from the moment they exit the stargate to the moment they're about to impact with a ship).

[Karec]

The expanding part is very posible because everyone seems to forget that these people(Ori not the human followers) are ancients in a point of view.

For gods sake we are on the line of making nano technology an everyday thing.
What do you think a million old race can do who are ascended?!

For all we know the priors can just will the things bigger like they will the ori technology to work lol


Ps. Who knows maby even the toilet ships grew when they came out of the gate and we did't even notise =p

[Sauron18]

On the Ori ship thread I posted the approximate measurement of the "Camelot" supergate, or at least what it should be, and from that the size of the Ori Warships, if you'd like you could go and check it out and discuss.

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...67#post5193867

[O'Neil]

The city from one end to the other is 0.81 miles. Ive talked with Bruce Woloshyn before, and seen his answer to this question. The city is not as big as we all think it is.

If we take a look at the daedalus landing in the water next to one of the city's piers, we can see that its about half the length of the city.

The VFX team has done a pretty good job at keeping things to scale, but its the untrained eye that cannot find reference points to understand the scale.

For example, Weir and Shepperd have been out on the balcony. When they are out there, it does not appear to be a big huge balcony right? Now take a look at the balcony from a distant exterior shot, and imagine seeing them standing out there on it? If you did it correctly, you will see the city is not that big as they say it is.

[Peoples_General]

But the VFX team has done a POOR job of keeping with the Ancients' style of building MASSIVE stuff, if they stick with the 0.81mile claim.

Im sorry, but I think we can reduce Atlantis into a designation of a "Village-Ship", instead of "City-Ship" if they keep that miniscule scale.

You can also send the VFX team to places like Hong Kong, New York, Shanghai, Tokyo, and Los Angeles so they'll know what a CITY is.

I was born in a city in the Philippines, and I was raised in New York City... so pardon me if I get a bit annoyed when someone calls something so small as a "City".

They said that Atlantis has about as much office space as Manhattan. Well... I hope someone on the show's crew is a New Yorker. Cuz... um... they need to look at this...

Your looking at about 1/2 of Mahattan island here. The view is from midtown and goes all the way to southern Manhattan. Obviously WTC was still around at the time of the pic. IIRC the street all the way on the lower left edge of the pic is West 65th Street. So from there to Battery Park at the southern edge... it should around 7 to 8 miles in distance, as Manhattan's total length is about 13miles.
http://www.tropicalisland.de/NYC_New...licopter_b.jpg

[Sauron18]

The city from one end to the other is 0.81 miles. Ive talked with Bruce Woloshyn before, and seen his answer to this question. The city is not as big as we all think it is.

If we take a look at the daedalus landing in the water next to one of the city's piers, we can see that its about half the length of the city.

The VFX team has done a pretty good job at keeping things to scale, but its the untrained eye that cannot find reference points to understand the scale.

For example, Weir and Shepperd have been out on the balcony. When they are out there, it does not appear to be a big huge balcony right? Now take a look at the balcony from a distant exterior shot, and imagine seeing them standing out there on it? If you did it correctly, you will see the city is not that big as they say it is.

In Stargate Atlantis the Scales are more or less always the same.

In stargate Sg1, in the last two episodes they sort of messed up with the Warships (my eye is not untrained):


Look at this, there you can see people (very small brownish dots in front of ship) in comparison with the ship:




Now you see a Ha'tak in comparison with the ship (it's a bit far away, so the Ha'tak is actually a bit smaller in comparison:




This would mean that a Ha'tak is this size in comparison with the people:



Either those people are extremely large, or its a scaling mistake

Image Credit: Stargatecaps

[Jarnin]

Do you have super-vision or something that enables you to SEE a nano-scopic virus? I doubt it.

What are you talking about? You don't have to see something to be afraid of it; The odds of being infected with the ebola virus and being eaten by a great white shark are about the same, and the end results of both are death.

Like I said, size doesn't matter when the end result is you being dead.

You also have to consider than the Ori ships are big because they CARRY SOLDIERS. The Ha'Tak has a capacity of about 1,000 troops, I'd imagine the Ori ships have much a much larger carrying capacity than the Ha'Taks

The Ori ships look big because they're 75% empty space. The body of the ship has a big empty spot that has nothing inside it except some weird ring thingy. That's why they look big; well, that and the visual effects screwup in Camelot.

Also, they probably aren't carrying all that many troops. The Priors are the ass kickers, the soldiers are just the Priors back-up; they protect the Prior and take down anything they see.

In Crusade we saw a "platoon" of Ori soldiers and their Prior leader, and there were only about 20 soldiers in the group. If each ship has 10 priors, that's 200 troops per ship, about what could fit inside the hollow toilet starcraft.

Just jumping in.
I'm not sure about it, but is it written somewhere that the supergate modules can't form bigger gates if necessary?

Not by an official source, no.

How are they bound together? They clamp to each other, right?

The gate segments don't connect to each other at all physically. From the looks of the one in Beachhead, they link together by some funky energy beam that connects them all when the gate is active; otherwise they just float next to each other.

Can the "docking" arms of each module actually slightly change in angle to form a bigger gate if necessary?

Since they're not physically attached to each other, they might be able to include more segments to make a larger gate.

The thing is, if the supergate in Beachhead was built to allow their ships to come through, it should be the same size as the one in Camelot. I mean, why build a small supergate if you need a bigger one?
That means there isn't a need for the supergates to change shape until the Ori built ships that are larger than the toilet starcraft.

Anyway, wouldn't make lots of sense since the first supergate was supposed to send ori battleships anyway.
Visual screw up?

Yes, visual screw up. The Ha'tak and O'Neill ships were scaled way down to make the Ori ships look scary.

i counted 42 components in the second ori supergate.

The Ori supergate CG model in Beachhead had exactly 80 segments.

The Ori supergate computer diagram onboard the Odyssey shown in Camelot had 42 segments.

The Ori supergate CG model in Camelot had exactly 90 segments.

Lets use the gate in Camelot.
Using your math: 900 = (90 * 5) * 2 (includes 5 meters spacing between segments, and each segement is 5 meters wide)

286 = 900 / 3.14159

This is close enough to match with the 300-400 meter estimate Carter made in Beachhead, since that supergate was still assembling itself at the time she said it.

Do the modules exactly touch each other, or are they clamped by some sort of energetic field? Or do they fold out?

They're pulled together/held apart by a magical energy beam.

To offer a diameter of 300 to begin with, a module would need to be more than 22 meters large.

The modules were stated by Carter to be 10 meters long, and since the inner diameter of a stargate is only ~5 meters across, they can't be any wider than that.

Plus what's the size of one of these modules when about to hit the ships in Beachhead? They're aren't that small, are they?

10 x 5 meters isn't that small when you consider they're hitting a ship about ~190 meters long (Prometheus).

So it does seem that they could flod out, or inflate (lousy explanation if the modules do not change in shape from the moment they exit the stargate to the moment they're about to impact with a ship).

You're asking if they change shape to make themselves larger once they're through the gate, and that's a possibility. When Vala pilots the Tel'tak into a segment's slot in Beachhead the segments appear to be quite a bit larger than the ship she's flying. The tel'tak is 15 meters long, and in that shot the supergate segments are about 1.5 times the length of the ship.

Since we haven't seen a supergate segment growing larger, and we haven't heard anything in the show about it, I'm gonna mark it up as another visual effects screw up.

On the Ori ship thread I posted the approximate measurement of the "Camelot" supergate, or at least what it should be, and from that the size of the Ori Warships, if you'd like you could go and check it out and discuss.

Your numbers are off since you used the set of the supergate segment Carter was on as a reference instead of the maximum possible width, which is about 5 meters. The segments have to fit through a normal stargate...

The segments might be able to expand themselves a little, but there's no way they can quadruple in size.

The city from one end to the other is 0.81 miles. Ive talked with Bruce Woloshyn before, and seen his answer to this question. The city is not as big as we all think it is.

0.81 miles = 1.3 kilometers. You're saying that's the diameter of Atlantis? If Bruce wrote it, then provide a link so we can reference it, ok?

If we take a look at the daedalus landing in the water next to one of the city's piers, we can see that its about half the length of the city.

You know, it's funny, but I've never seen Daedalus land in water. I've seen it land on one of the piers a couple times... Which episode did it land in the water? Provide a link for reference...

Anyway, if you're claiming that Daedalus is about a quarter the diameter of Atlantis, and Atlantis is ~1300 meters in diameter, then Daedalus would be about 325 meters in length; that is pretty close.

The VFX team has done a pretty good job at keeping things to scale, but its the untrained eye that cannot find reference points to understand the scale.

Camelot proves otherwise. So far I haven't noticed much discrepancy in Atlantis, but then again, it hasn't been as bad as Camelot to make me notice. If I look, I'll probably find them.

For example, Weir and Shepperd have been out on the balcony. When they are out there, it does not appear to be a big huge balcony right? Now take a look at the balcony from a distant exterior shot, and imagine seeing them standing out there on it? If you did it correctly, you will see the city is not that big as they say it is.

The balcony you see from distant shots of the city is the large balcony they were on at the end of Rising, where they were drinking champagne with the Athosians.
It is not the balcony outside the gate room where Weir and Shepard hang out.

But the VFX team has done a POOR job of keeping with the Ancients' style of building MASSIVE stuff, if they stick with the 0.81mile claim.

Again with the "it has to be big" claims...

Im sorry, but I think we can reduce Atlantis into a designation of a "Village-Ship", instead of "City-Ship" if they keep that miniscule scale.

How many ancients lived in Atlantis? That is how you determine whether it's a village or a city...

They said that Atlantis has about as much office space as Manhattan. Well... I hope someone on the show's crew is a New Yorker. Cuz... um... they need to look at this...


Your looking at about 1/2 of Mahattan island here. The view is from midtown and goes all the way to southern Manhattan. Obviously WTC was still around at the time of the pic. IIRC the street all the way on the lower left edge of the pic is West 65th Street. So from there to Battery Park at the southern edge... it should around 7 to 8 miles in distance, as Manhattan's total length is about 13miles.

You might have a point, if Manhattan island was a superstructure like Atlantis, but it's not.

When you count the superstructure of Atlantis as a big building, and then add all the towers that are sitting on top of the superstructure, it probably has about the same interior space as all the office buildings in Manhattan.

That is the point Rodney was trying to make when he said "It’d be like searching every room in every building in Manhattan."


Back to scaling...

If the Ori supergate is 286 meters in diameter, then we can determine the dimensions of the Ori toilet class starcraft with the following pictures:

And...



As you can see, I even scaled a human being at 1.5 meters to compare to the ships.

So there you have it; using the information the show has provided, the dimensions of the Ori Toilet Starcraft is:

Length: 200 meters (656 ft.)
Width: 170 meters (557 ft.)
Height: 95 meters (311 ft.)

I know these numbers look small; it's smaller than I thought it should be... But just remember that the only reason they look big is due to the Ha'tak and O'Neill ships being scaled down from their original sizes.

[Sauron18]

Actually, the ship is a bit bigger (when coming out of the supergate), there's a part missing, look at my calculations in the Ori ship Thread, I caculated a bit more, I could use pics if anyones feels I need to.

[Jarnin]

In Stargate Atlantis the Scales are more or less always the same.

In stargate Sg1, in the last two episodes they sort of messed up with the Warships (my eye is not untrained):


Look at this, there you can see people (very small brownish dots in front of ship) in comparison with the ship:

Yep.

Now you see a Ha'tak in comparison with the ship (it's a bit far away, so the Ha'tak is actually a bit smaller in comparison:

Yep.

This would mean that a Ha'tak is this size in comparison with the people:

Yep.

Either those people are extremely large, or its a scaling mistake

Scaling mistake!

[Sauron18]

Here is my take. There is still a VFX mistake, but it's with the people in "Crusade" instead of the ships.

I'm actually being slightly generous (estimating smaller than it might be) with the measurements.

[Jarnin]

Actually, the ship is a bit bigger (when coming out of the supergate), there's a part missing, look at my calculations in the Ori ship Thread, I caculated a bit more, I could use pics if anyones feels I need to.

I just scaled it based on information we have from the show.

People are on average 1.5 meters in height.

The Supergate segments were stated to be 10 meters in length, and they cannot be more than 5 meters wide because of their needing to travel here through a stargate.
Since your original estimate of the supergate segments were off by a factor of 4, your numbers are wrong.