The Sci. & Tech. Concordance and Discussion Thread

[Wraith Scientist]

I've got an idea about the 'black hole containment field':

Black holes have: mass, charge and spin, nothing more

Black holes with no spin or charge have 1 event horizon. Anything crossing it will be sucked into the singularity and will die

Black holes with charge have two event horizons, an outer and an inner. Between the outer and inner is the area which pulls you in at the speed of light.

The more charge the black hole has, the closer the event horizons are.

If the black hole is charged enough (ie. with a ZPM) the charge is able to counteract the force of gravity and the event horizons merge, leaving an exposed 'naked singularity' - they should glow brightly and emit energy and exotic particles via quantum mechanical effects.

'Naked singularities' are so strange that I wouldn't be surprised if you could manipulate time with one.

Beware: pulling the ZPM and letting the charge leak away will cause the event horizons to form again, trapping the ship within an event horizon (one way: you can't get out but enemy weapons can fire in - and the event horizons will accelerate their shots to near the speed of light) from which it can't escape unless the ZPM is replaced.

**********

How about that?

[Wraith Scientist]

Oh, yea I don't see why not. Quatum Mechanics has a fundametal relationship with Time Travel. If they have achieved faster then light travel, their technology could possibly be advanced enough for that purpose.

As far as Stargate cannon however, it has been elluded to that Jaren designed and constructed the device without the knowledge of the other Alterans, and not until after they traveled to the Pegasus Galaxy.

Every time a particle takes a path it takes every possible path (Feynman's theories) - even ones that go back in time. maybe using black hole topology and extensive gravity manipulating you could coax your ship to take paths back in time.

[Rodan5757]

Every time a particle takes a path it takes every possible path (Feynman's theories) - even ones that go back in time. maybe using black hole topology and extensive gravity manipulating you could coax your ship to take paths back in time.

Would that theoretically work?

You would have a difficult time controling how far you traveled, or in what direction. I suppose rotation of the particals and speed of rotation could technically control that.

[Wraith Scientist]

I think the easiest way to travel back in time would be to open a wormhole direct. Or some modification of a hyperdrive - there are different physical laws for speed in hyperspace so why not time too?

Or distort the singularity of a black hole and fly round it in a carefully calculated path to take you back to where you started before you set off.

[immhotep]

I've got an idea about the 'black hole containment field':

Black holes have: mass, charge and spin, nothing more

Black holes with no spin or charge have 1 event horizon. Anything crossing it will be sucked into the singularity and will die

Black holes with charge have two event horizons, an outer and an inner. Between the outer and inner is the area which pulls you in at the speed of light.

The more charge the black hole has, the closer the event horizons are.

If the black hole is charged enough (ie. with a ZPM) the charge is able to counteract the force of gravity and the event horizons merge, leaving an exposed 'naked singularity' - they should glow brightly and emit energy and exotic particles via quantum mechanical effects.

'Naked singularities' are so strange that I wouldn't be surprised if you could manipulate time with one.

Beware: pulling the ZPM and letting the charge leak away will cause the event horizons to form again, trapping the ship within an event horizon (one way: you can't get out but enemy weapons can fire in - and the event horizons will accelerate their shots to near the speed of light) from which it can't escape unless the ZPM is replaced.

**********

How about that?

Thank you for that, its actually given alot of usefull insight in to why our technolgy and danger would be possible, we have the containment field failing in Dawn 2, where the black hole would then suck the ship in to the event horizon, so maybe our technolgy could be a field that extracts the energy from a naked singularity, which the ZPM not only powered but is a conduit through which the charge flows. SO as the containment field weaken so does the charge getting to the black hole, which would eventually create a black hole which sucks you in insteads of glows. Thanks alot thats actually given alot of good info for me.

[Wraith Scientist]

When containment fails:



Advised course of action: plug the ZPM back in!

[immhotep]

so basicly, if the ZPM goes then were trapped, well traped once the field fails, this really helps for an episode im spinning!
Also this means that the Black hole and ZPM whilst being massive power sources are our greatest weakness, because in the senarious your providing they are vital, as it was intended, the ship is massive, loaded with power draining technolgy even without a time machine, a ZPM even at its level of power source could only power 30/40% of it without the TM. So a black hole, which is as far as i can tell is the biggest juice provider there is, if the ori cant find anything better even with infinite knowledge then i think its either the ultimate or getting close, being such a power source would come with risks so an almost equal way of containing and controling it would be needed; ying and yang you need control of power or the power will control you, so having ZPM containing black hole and black hole powered by ZPM (giving the charge) gives that safety net. im glad ive talked about this its made the technolgy on the ark, even more real in my mind, because now i have some actual reason behind why and the hows. thanks WS and rodan

[tres_gic]

I've got an idea about the 'black hole containment field':

Black holes have: mass, charge and spin, nothing more

Black holes with no spin or charge have 1 event horizon. Anything crossing it will be sucked into the singularity and will die

Black holes with charge have two event horizons, an outer and an inner. Between the outer and inner is the area which pulls you in at the speed of light.

The more charge the black hole has, the closer the event horizons are.

If the black hole is charged enough (ie. with a ZPM) the charge is able to counteract the force of gravity and the event horizons merge, leaving an exposed 'naked singularity' - they should glow brightly and emit energy and exotic particles via quantum mechanical effects.

'Naked singularities' are so strange that I wouldn't be surprised if you could manipulate time with one.

Beware: pulling the ZPM and letting the charge leak away will cause the event horizons to form again, trapping the ship within an event horizon (one way: you can't get out but enemy weapons can fire in - and the event horizons will accelerate their shots to near the speed of light) from which it can't escape unless the ZPM is replaced.

**********

How about that?

I admit that I don't know much about black holes (for instance, wasn't aware of the existence of a charge). My questions center on charges. First, where do the charge in the black hole come from? Is it that the two event horizons somehow make it, or are the dual horizons a result of the charge? Also, how would charge counteract gravity? Are you assuming that the charge of the black hole is opposite to all things coming toward the black hole, and thus the repulsion would counteract the effects of gravity, or is there something I'm missing?

[Wraith Scientist]

I admit that I don't know much about black holes (for instance, wasn't aware of the existence of a charge). My questions center on charges. First, where do the charge in the black hole come from? Is it that the two event horizons somehow make it, or are the dual horizons a result of the charge? Also, how would charge counteract gravity? Are you assuming that the charge of the black hole is opposite to all things coming toward the black hole, and thus the repulsion would counteract the effects of gravity, or is there something I'm missing?

Like charges repel

You can demonstrate this by attaching yourself to a van de graf generator and watching your hair stand on end as each hair is repelled away from the others.

A black hole with charge and no spin is called a Reissner-Nordström black hole.

It has a second evento horizon called a Cauchy horizon

If | Q | > M then the electomagnetic force overcomes the gravitational force, leaving the singularity open

There's some diagrams of this sort of black hole here. It also describes how to travel into new universes using a Reissner-Nordström black hole

EDIT: Found a really good article about black holes and singularities. Also explains in passing how to use a Kerr black hole (spinning) as a time machine

[tres_gic]

Like charges repel

You can demonstrate this by attaching yourself to a van de graf generator and watching your hair stand on end as each hair is repelled away from the others.

A black hole with charge and no spin is called a Reissner-Nordström black hole.

It has a second evento horizon called a Cauchy horizon

If | Q | > M then the electomagnetic force overcomes the gravitational force, leaving the singularity open

There's some diagrams of this sort of black hole here. It also describes how to travel into new universes using a Reissner-Nordström black hole

EDIT: Found a really good article about black holes and singularities. Also explains in passing how to use a Kerr black hole (spinning) as a time machine

Thanks! Really, I did know that like charges repel...teaches me not to say anything so late at night.

[Seastallion]

Oy..! Speaking of Black-holes, I think I'll avoid the subject to prevent from getting 'sucked' in...

Sorry I've been away a while, but sometimes you have to take a break or get burnt out. I think I'm back now. I've been watching a lot of Babylon 5 lately, and thinking about the future of Stargate as a fictional universe. Most of us have come up with 'Star Trek' type futures for Stargate, but what about a Bab-5 type future? A sort of 'League of Non-aligned Worlds', as opposed to an outright political union? We've already seen an example of this with the 'Torment of Tanatalus' and its 'United Nations of the stars'. After some thought, this seems to me a more likely outcome. What do you guys think?

I also came up with a new fighter, but I should probably put that in a different thread. I think it is VERY cool, but then I'm a biased party. Lets just say it maximizes technological opportunities for a fighter and pilot.

[Seastallion]

As an addendum to my previous post...

I think one of the first political Treaties (besides the one with the Tok'ra that ended up eventually being broken) would be with the Jaffa. I'm thinking it would be a "Tau'ri/Jaffa Mutual Defense Pact". Basically, a complicated way of saying, 'if you got my back, I've got yours..!' It happens on Earth all the time. Two countries make a mutual defense pact, that say if another country attacks you then we will regard it as an attack on us too, so if you decide to go to war, we're with you. It works both ways. In this case, we agree to fight with the Jaffa if someone attacks them, and they with us if we're attacked.

Later, Earth might build a "U.N." type organization that would invite various worlds to join it do discuss mutual issues of concern, whether they be economic or military. That could become something else later on, but it would be a start. It would allow the different worlds to create a dialogue that they don't currently have. The stargate universe is a rich one with many various alien races. They just don't have any place to all talk together. It could be useful.

The races that might be represented would be Earth (Industrialized, space-faring)(Asgard Protectorate), the Tok'ra (semi-alien)(advanced, space-faring), the Jaffa (semi-alien)(industrialized, space-faring), the Asgard (if they chose too...)(alien)(Advanced, space-faring), the Habridians (semi-alien)(advanced, space-faring), Aris Boch's race (alien)(industrialized, space-faring), the Enkarans (alien)(unkown tech level), the Gadmeer (when they become alive again...)(alien)(advanced, space-faring), the Amran (low-tech, but open to trade), the Argosians (low-tech, but open to trade), ?the Aschen? (if they didn't try to kill us...)(advanced, space-faring), Bedrosians (if they ever get over themselves...)(advanced and industrialized but no space travel), the Human/Unas society of Burrock's planet (semi-alien)(low-tech, but open to trade), the Byrsa (low-tech, but open to trade), Camelot (low-tech, but open to trade), Jamala's People (low-tech, but open to trade), the Cimmerians (low-tech, but open to trade)(Asgard Protectorate), Alebran's People (low-tech, but opent to trade), Arkhan's People (low-tech, but open to trade), Edora (low-tech, but open to trade), Ellori's people (low-tech, but open to trade), Galarans (Industrialized, but pre-space-faring)(Asgard Protectorate), Jabanna (low-tech, but open to trade), Juna (low-tech, but open to trade), Langara (Industrialized low tech, but open to trade), K'Tau (low-tech, but open to trade)(Asgard Protectorate), Land of Light (low-tech, but open to trade), Latonans (semi-industrialized, but open to trade), Pallan's people (industrialized, open to trade), Medieval people (low-tech, but open to trade), Medronans (low-tech, but open to trade), the Nassyans (low-tech, but open to trade), the Nox (if they're willing to...)(Advanced), the Oannes (alien)(advanced, space-faring), Orban (Industrialized, open to trade), Pangarans (industrialized, low-tech but open to trade), the Reole (alien)(low-tech, but open to trade), the Residents (Industrialized, open to trade), Re'tu (alien)(advanced, space-faring?), Shamda's people (low-tech, but open to trade), Shavadai (low-tech, but open to trade), Shyla's people (low-tech, but open to trade), Tagrea (industrialized, pre-space-faring), Taldur (advanced, industrialized), Tenat's race (alien)(industrialized, space-faring), Tiernod (low-tech, but open to trade)(Asgard Protectorate), and Vyans (industrilized low-tech, but open to trade).

As far as I know, that is as complete a list as any of potential members. Most of them are low-tech societies, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have something to trade in return for greater technologies. Some are industrialized but still relatively low-tech (the Pangarans), whereas some are pre-space-faring (the Galarans and Earth. Earth is closely matched technologically, but was able to reach Interstellar space travel first). Only a few are truly advanced (like the Habridians or the Asgard), but some are advanced with little or no space travel (the Nox).

In truth only the industrialized worlds would have anything of real value to contribute, but the low-tech worlds could benefit from association with more advanced friendly races. The one thing all these have in common is the ability to reach each others worlds by means of the stargate. An incentive to work together would enable these worlds to resist the Ori or other threats. What the low tech worlds may not have in technology, might be made up in resources, allowing them to build up their own worlds. Some might decide to form confederations to achieve through unity what they cannot do alone.

[Harekin]

Once again. Noone has anything but theories about black holes so that is all pure speculation.

[tres_gic]

Once again. Noone has anything but theories about black holes so that is all pure speculation.

Yeah, though I'm particularly skeptical about the charge speculation (and there are some indirect observations of black holes, so not *everything* said about them is pure speculation..unless of course you were referring to the time travel stuff, in which case, ignore me ). It doesn't make sense that a) a lot of like charges would amass in one area (since they would repel each other...), b) a lot of one kind of charge would be in one area of the galaxy since, on a whole, charge is equally distributed, and c) since charge is an electromagnetic force, I'd think it'd be subject to the same limitations as light and wouldn't be able to escape the event horizon, thus making a charged black hole a moot point (since we wouldn't detect the charge anyway).

I did look at the links that Wraith Scientist helpfully provided, but there isn't enough math/explanation for me to understand where this charge idea is coming from (and why a charge force can overcome the gravitation force). A quick look at NASA's ADS (Astrophysics Data System) pretty much assures me I wouldn't understand any of the math/relativity/theoretical stuff from a paper that would explain this further. Sigh.

So, yes, black holes are tricky.

[Avatar28]

Yeah, though I'm particularly skeptical about the charge speculation (and there are some indirect observations of black holes, so not *everything* said about them is pure speculation..unless of course you were referring to the time travel stuff, in which case, ignore me ). It doesn't make sense that a) a lot of like charges would amass in one area (since they would repel each other...), b) a lot of one kind of charge would be in one area of the galaxy since, on a whole, charge is equally distributed, and c) since charge is an electromagnetic force, I'd think it'd be subject to the same limitations as light and wouldn't be able to escape the event horizon, thus making a charged black hole a moot point (since we wouldn't detect the charge anyway).

I did look at the links that Wraith Scientist helpfully provided, but there isn't enough math/explanation for me to understand where this charge idea is coming from (and why a charge force can overcome the gravitation force). A quick look at NASA's ADS (Astrophysics Data System) pretty much assures me I wouldn't understand any of the math/relativity/theoretical stuff from a paper that would explain this further. Sigh.

So, yes, black holes are tricky.

Well if it helps, you can't really think of charge as being electromagnetic radiation. It is actually one of the four fundamental forces of the universe. The others being gravity (the weakest of the four), the strong force, and the weak force.

Gravity, well, you know what gravity is. It's responsible for large scale structures like the formation of galaxies, black holes, expansion of the universe as well as smaller scale stuff like the orbits of planets and everything else we associate with it.

The weak force is the third strongest of the fundamental forces and is responsible for certain types of nuclear decay. It also is believed to be tied to electromagnetism (in much the same way that electric and magnetic forces are tied in electromagnetism) in something called the electroweak interaction.

Electromagnetic force is the force that acts between charged particles. It's responsible for phenomena ranging all the way from lasers and radios to the structure of atoms and the structure of metals to friction and rainbows.

The strong force is the strongest of the four forces and is responsible for the holding together of the nucleus of the atom.

In terms of relative magnitude, if gravity has a magnitude of 10^0 (1), the weak force is 10^25, the electromagnetic force is 10^36, and the strong force is 10^38. In other words, the electromagnetic force is 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (10 septillion) times stronger than gravity. So in terms of strength it would be no problem for enough charge to help offset gravity.