Goa'uld vs. Wraith

[Anubis345]

i think that i will close the case just throw in a battalion of Kull warriors and bye bye wraith.

theory being that they wait for the wraith to cull a planet full of Kull warriors (only saying that there is that many because of what i have seen in Evolution Parts 1 and 2) and when they get aboard the ship they take it out from the inside. case closed

until somebody comes up with something else.

[BlackBaron]

We really need to see an Ha'tak against an Wraith hive ship. It is a must see!

[AscendedWarrior]

The hive ship would be defensless, Ha'taks have shields, even if the wraiths hive ships are powerfull they will not get through them in one shot. The gould just need to fire all they got on the hive ship, and bye bye wraiths.

[Gate Master]

This whole debate seems to be based on the misconception that the wraith dont have shields which they do.

This in mind its not a clear cut verdict. Yes their hyperdrive isn't that advanced but its sufficent for their needs at the momment and untill they found out about earth probably didn't put alot of effort in to developing it. Also they have tech far beyound the goauld as demonstrated by their beaming tech and ability to create their own ship based DHD's. Their probes are also much smaller than goauld tech.

Tactics: the gouald and wraith are fairly even, overconfident but can adapt themselves with time and both have demonstrated insidious methods of gathering knowledge. The wraith are more nomadic with less need for bases of operation where as the goauld are tied to planets if for any other reason then to feed their armies and build their tech.

In conventional ground conflicts unless Kull warriors were used the wraith would win with superior numbers endurance strenth and regenerative capabilities. However its possible with goauld resiliance to biological and chemical weapons that the goauld would adapt. If Kull warriors were used with wraith telepathic abilities its anyones guess and there's apparently quite a few anti-Kull weapons around to take account of.

Small ship against small ship the darts would be more than a match for death gliders and wraith crusers would most-likely beat the alkesh.

Mothership against mothership would be more interesting. Hive ships can when attacking in force weaken not only asgard based shields but depleet a ZPM powered shild in days. But then Anubis weapons can take down older asgard ships as well as entire fleets of goauld motherships. But who would actually win one on one or fleet on fleet is anyones guess at this time, although a battle between them would be good to see in a future ep.

Who would win a war is too difficult to say cause we dont know enough about the wraith yet although if it were based on will alone hands down the wraith would win as they seem all to eager to sacrifice themselfs on suicide runs. The Gouald are more likely to turn tail and run, more so than the ancients.

[Prior_of_the_Ori]

Who would win a war is too difficult to say cause we dont know enough about the wraith yet although if it were based on will alone hands down the wraith would win as they seem all to eager to sacrifice themselfs on suicide runs. The Gouald are more likely to turn tail and run, more so than the ancients.

Well depends who is leading the Goa'uld force, the First Prime or the Goa'uld himself. If its the Goa'uld himself then he would probably make a run for it but if it was the First Prime then it would be expected that he die rather then retreat. Expected, not necessarily mean that it would happen. I mean Teal'cs father retreated from battle and for that Cronus executed him.

Also not sure about the Wraith but the Goa'uld also tend to fall into their arrogant beliefs which would slightly hinder their ability to fight but this would mainly be against a weaker foe. If the Wraith are recognised as a valid threat then the Goa'uld would be more effective in a battle.

[Gate Master]

Well depends who is leading the Goa'uld force, the First Prime or the Goa'uld himself. If its the Goa'uld himself then he would probably make a run for it but if it was the First Prime then it would be expected that he die rather then retreat. Expected, not necessarily mean that it would happen. I mean Teal'cs father retreated from battle and for that Cronus executed him.

Also not sure about the Wraith but the Goa'uld also tend to fall into their arrogant beliefs which would slightly hinder their ability to fight but this would mainly be against a weaker foe. If the Wraith are recognised as a valid threat then the Goa'uld would be more effective in a battle.

Very good points although from what we've seen of the wraith I'd say they both have that arrogence bug. As you say in a full out conflict I imagine the gould and wraith would get over it relatively quick. the wraith also for the most part work collectively even tho divisions are forming but the gould are any thing but united and nor are their armies. Plus the wraith are part human and if they have the smallest part of human inginuity in them the goauld wouldn't stand a chance.

[cs-comm]

Plus the wraith are part human and if they have the smallest part of human inginuity in them the goauld wouldn't stand a chance.

The Wraith havn't made any significant technological advancment in the past 10 thousand years. Other then blocking Asgard transporters, they havn't shown any innovation at all. Also in a way the Gould are part human since they take human hosts and have all their memories.

[BlackBaron]

The Wraith havn't made any significant technological advancment in the past 10 thousand years. Other then blocking Asgard transporters, they havn't shown any innovation at all. Also in a way the Gould are part human since they take human hosts and have all their memories.

And goa'uld do get different personalities from there hosts. I think. If that is not the case then why are the goa'uld so different from each other.

I think the goa'uld could win, the wraith might be a "evil" species always in "war" but they never get any resistance (well maybe from the ancients but they just hid behind there ZPM powered shields ...)
The goa'uld how ever are probably much more familiar with tactics in war etc.
It would be nice for future episode if some goa'uld who was in hiding somewhere the whole time when the replicators attacked and everything and still had 10 or more Ha'taks would form an alliance with the SGC to work on the Atlantis mission. Use his forces and resources to defend Atlantis. (It could be a logical chose for him)

-BlackBaron

p.s sorry for my bad english

[AscendedWarrior]

Where do you got wraith shields from? They have never used shields because the ancients used drones who were unaffected by shields, therefore they shields were useless for them. They might start using shields later but they don't have them now.

[BlackBaron]

Where do you got wraith shields from? They have never used shields because the ancients used drones who were unaffected by shields, therefore they shields were useless for them. They might start using shields later but they don't have them now.

I don't think the will ever devolop any form of shields, I don't think that's the way they think... they count on the numbers of ships and firepower.

[Mister Oragahn]

I couldn't think of a workable premise for this conflict. Maybe someone else could help me out?

In space:
1) the Gould had the advantage of numbers before they were overthrown.

Yes, they apparently had a really, really big advantage in numbers.

3) Gould motherships have shields but they're smaller then Hive ships and have fewer guns.

Wraith ships are unshielded, yes, and fail to come in large numbers noawadays, that would be cheese cake for the Goa'uld with high gigaton/teraton shields (figures derivated from Enemies).
Even with fewer guns, the Ha'taks would literally tear Hive ships to pieces.

Safe if you believe that in the episode The Hive, the hive ships were firing at maximum power. Then, and only then, it would mean that the hull have insane energy dissipation properties.
Depending on the real firepower figure, it could easily become possible that Wraith hulls are very tough (but then we'd need to explain how a mere PJ's squid dug so easily through a cruiser's hull).
Considering McKay's descriptino of how the planet would likely be destroyed in its entirety, we're potentially looking at firepower figures in the high teraton/low petaton range.
It's likely that a single shot at full power would completely overcome a Ha'tak's shields in one blow and destroy the whole ship. A second bolt would just be overkill.

However, I'm more inclined to believe that in The Hive, the respective crews simply decided to not fire at maximum firepower at such close distances, especially since they do not have shields.
Plus the evidence from The Siege Part I shows that even a weapon charged with one naqahdah generator could cut a Hive ship in two. At best, we're looking at a beam of several low megatons, if not mere kilotons.

But man, I really like to see what happens when Hive ships' crews really get pissed off!

4) Wraith hive ships can carry many more darts then a mothership can carry deathgliders.

Yes, and for mysterious reasons, certain darts can shoot down puddle jumpers in one shot, while no death glider has ever been able to do so.

5) Gould ships can stay in hyperspace for longer periods of time and don't have to stop to cull.

They also move significantly faster in HP, which is a big tactical advantage.
With the Wraith needing to cull, they'll be stuck on critical points and will be like sitting ducks.

In Pegasus galaxy, human ressources are already scarse, and in the MW, Goa'uld know their population numbers by name.

On the ground:
1) one-on-one jaffa and wraith seem pretty equal unless we're talking about a Wraith commander (psychic powers) or hand-to-hand combat where the Wraith physical strenght gives them the advantage.

Jaffas still possess a strenght superior to any of an average human, but would indeed be completely *****slapped by a Wraith.

2) In realistic combat the Wraith would lose because the rely exclusivly on stunners while jaffa have grenades, staff weapons, zats (lethal and non-lethal) and stationary guns.

Not necessarily. It all depends on the time people remain unconscious. Jaffas would likely prove tougher, and would likely recover faster.

3) Both sides wear body armour and niether seems to be stronger then the other although the Wraith have the advantage of regenerative abilities.

Arguable. These regenerative abilities strictly depend on how far a Wraith's last lunch was.
See:
- The Defiant One, a single Wraith pilot has been feeding on the crew of a Wraith cargo ship, plus two humans. This guy could only be killed with an ancient drone. Grenades, hand guns and P-90s were completely useless.
- Aurora, the Wraith comes out from the stasis pod, runs at McKay, and is shot by Sheppard's handgun. Wraith is dead. Likewise, this guy was starving to death. Harh. Harh.
Jaffas can regenerate minor scratches without too much pain, but bigger injuries clearly incapacitate them.
So it's definitively in favor of the Wraith, and complete overkill if the Wraith garrison actually just fed.

Industrial capacity:
1) the Wraith don't have any industrial capacity. They havn't shown any ability to construct new hive ships. Perhaps there are limited production capabilites onboard Wraith hive ships, like dart construction/repair and body armour/stunner construction.

We didn't see it yet. They sure had some, otherwise they couldn't have won against the Ancients.
The holo said that the Wraith kept pouring ships, besieging Atlantis for decades. And that's talking about ships which get downed quite easily by ancient weapons.
So the Wraith really had an insane war machine to be able to compensate the very large technological gap. I mean, the ratio is almost ridiculous, and would only start to make sense with a ratio of 10000:1, if not way more.

2) the Gould have proven their ability to construct new ships. They have large anti-gravity dry-docks that support motherships during construction.

The Goa'uld still had great numbers before Reckoning, but their production methods are quite slow in comparison to what the Wraith should be able to achieve.
Anubis is an exception, so even if we managed to get a new capship at the end of season 7 when the former one was destroyed, we still have to consider the possibility that the ship was already in construction. And that's just one ship.

3) the Wraith have made no significant technological advances in 10000 years.

Indeed. Their scientists would not get the major approvals. See how one screwed up with the Wraith genetical experiments, the whole deal to produce a better food.

4) the Gould Apophis (or one of his underlings) created a new type of hyperdrive that was a significant improvment on previous types. Other Gould quickly followed. THis shows that they have at least a limited ability to advace technologically.

Indeed, and it largely beats the Wraith's one.

In my opinion, in a straight up war, the Gould would be victorious because they can rebuild ships and weapons. They also have shown a capacity for technological advance while the Wraith havn't even developed shields or sustainable hyperdrive.

It's questionnable. If the Wraith bring the kind of theorical industrial power they're generally granted according to several clues here and there, and if they realize that against Goa'uld, they will need to (re)mount shields on their ships, then Goa'ulds could largely be screwed.
We don't have proof that they have a sufficiently well devlopped shield technology for big objects, but they can at least completely encase a puddle jumper in one in a short time if needed.

versus aside, I would like to see some Gould or Wraith armour for once. It would also be cool if the Gould retractable helmat had some sort of HUD that gave jaffa enhanced vision etc. but there is no indication of that from any of the shows.

I always thought it did that. At least we've seen that there helmets proved useful to hunt SG teams during nighttime.
I'd simlpy suspect additionnal functions.

Also Deathglider pilots seem to rely on sight alone to target an enemy while Darts seem to have a sophisticated computer to aid the pilots.

O'Neill, in the second seat of the death glider piloted by Teal'c, locked the ship's weapons on Tanith's Al'kesh, in Exodus.

As for the efficiency of Wraith HUDs, you don't even want to go there.

Slight disadvantage for the goa'uld also is that they are so used to fighting eachother that when fighting someone new they would have a tendency of using old failing tactics rather then new good ones.

But Wraith didn't show any innovation at all either. It's always drop out from hyperspace, unload darts and fire at anything that looks like a ship, and cull anything that has a decent heartbeat and runs on two legs.
They're showing no innovation on tactics. The only good thing is that their dart beams allow them to drop soldiers very very quickly, packed into the storage banks of darts. That is very good.
We're still waiting to see darts use their beams to eat ship hulls (before being shot down by point defense, but if they're fast enough, that shouldn't post a problem, considering the mad aim of jaffa cannoneers - even Teal'c had issues to aim at an Al'kesh which was brushing against a Ha'tak's hull).

Hataks also appear to have a faster rate of fire than the Hive Ships.

Nope. Hive ships can fire faster, with more cannons, much more than what Ha'taks can fire at the same time in a given direction, as long as we talk about big guns, because Ha'taks are also equipped with several point defense cannons, but these are fairly irrevelant, safe if the Hive ships are unshielded and covered with weak hulls. Then even point defense guns would help.

Anyway, if Wraith ships are unshielded, they'll simply loose. Eventually, they may take down a Ha'tak in one shot, but this is unknown, and somehow, we wonder why this didn't happen when they attacked the unshielded ancient satellite.

"Helo" think b4 you post would you.
2. As far as I remember from the ep in which Jacob was showing us the positions of the Goa'uld ships(only the ones that the tok'ra managed to tag mind u), the total calc was closer to 300 minimum for the galaxy-not 120.

What Jacob said that the Tok'ra had tagged more than 100 motherships.
Now, with all evidence considered, I could extrapolate the real total number of ships, all Goa'uld domains combined.
Numbers are rather interesting, to say the least:
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....&postcount=384

Goa'uld- Shields, Good Hyperdrive, Decent energy weapons-faster rate of fire

All correct safe for the ROF.

[Ichigo]

You think a Wraith could feed on a Gould?? With Naquadah in there blood and all. And what if the Gould could reverse the effects of the Life sucking. That the wraith inflict. Then the Gould could be used over and over and over. This is theory. But discuss

[Prior_of_the_Ori]

O'Neill, in the second seat of the death glider piloted by Teal'c, locked the ship's weapons on Tanith's Al'kesh, in Exodus.

As for the efficiency of Wraith HUDs, you don't even want to go there.

Well its just that when you ever see a Jaffa inside a glider you never see any interface device as such so you do get the opinion that they are crummy pilots at least most of the time.

But Wraith didn't show any innovation at all either. It's always drop out from hyperspace, unload darts and fire at anything that looks like a ship, and cull anything that has a decent heartbeat and runs on two legs.
They're showing no innovation on tactics. The only good thing is that their dart beams allow them to drop soldiers very very quickly, packed into the storage banks of darts. That is very good.
We're still waiting to see darts use their beams to eat ship hulls (before being shot down by point defense, but if they're fast enough, that shouldn't post a problem, considering the mad aim of jaffa cannoneers - even Teal'c had issues to aim at an Al'kesh which was brushing against a Ha'tak's hull).

The main reason why i said that was because of Siege part 1 when the Hiveships enter the system. They actually are intelligent enough to send asteroids first to test the defences and find mines in orbit around the planet. If this were the goa'uld attacking i just get the feeling they would have fallen into the trap. Not making fun of the goa'uld or saying i hate them as they are one of my favourite villain races but it seemed like that to me

Also the telepathic nature of the wraith would be quite a bonus for fleet tactics considering the whole suicidal dart attack which would have been quite effective had the shields not gone up.

[Gate Master]

Where do you got wraith shields from? They have never used shields because the ancients used drones who were unaffected by shields, therefore they shields were useless for them. They might start using shields later but they don't have them now.

While its not been discussed in an ep Joe said it in his thread and also infered that the shields were the countermeasures used to block asgard beams. It was in relation to a question regarding the shield from the Defiant One, which he said was definitely wraith and not one belonging to the PJ.
Sorry I should have mentioned it before. Also I think its fair to say the writers are planning to introduce a whole host of new tricks for the wraith and there introducing them and their tech gradually much as they did with the Gould in SG1. Up to now the wraith have been arrogent and overconfident but I imagine we haven't seen half of what they can do.

[Mister Oragahn]

The main reason why i said that was because of Siege part 1 when the Hiveships enter the system. They actually are intelligent enough to send asteroids first to test the defences and find mines in orbit around the planet. If this were the goa'uld attacking i just get the feeling they would have fallen into the trap. Not making fun of the goa'uld or saying i hate them as they are one of my favourite villain races but it seemed like that to me

Also the telepathic nature of the wraith would be quite a bonus for fleet tactics considering the whole suicidal dart attack which would have been quite effective had the shields not gone up.

True. Well, it seems that the telepathic bozo only exists when plot requires it, but we've seen how Anubis or Apophis attacked planets.
Anubis sent a few ships to see what happens, but Pops directly dropped out of HP not far from Earth, to destroy a planet he considered to be of minor importance, until we defeated him, and then things turned bad.