Why is there a Point of Origin?

[LORD MONK]

*mumble, mumble, mumble*

Listen carefully...

I... did... NOT... say... that... you... didn't... need... the... PoO symbol... to... dial... out... the... gate..!!!

geez... As to the movie, and the pilot... I don't need to see them again. I have them BOTH on DVD. In any case I watched the pilot AND the movie just 2 days ago. I KNOW what Daniel said. You have to use the PoO symbol in the address to make it work, but that does NOT mean that PoO symbol is used to tell the other frick'n gate where you are..! In any case, you can forget the movie. As far as the series is concerned... its wrong..! The stargates do NOT use planetary frames of reference to target other gates. They use... a... (say it with me) "pan-galactic three dimensional X,Y,Z coordinates grid" as a single standared for ALL stargates to target other stargates. If you want it explained again, just read my previous post again.

Thank You..!

Daniel explained it better. He uses Six coordinates. He said so. You can't change it because it isn't your show. They say they use six coordinates wich are symbls and the seventh being the PoO.

If not, then what ep. are you ref. to that can back it up?

[Zamboni]

The Point of Origin is ridiculous. Since there are only a handful of symbols on the DHD, the poo (ha! "poo"!) would never be a "point" but rather more likely, a quadron of the galaxy. It's more like an area code than anything else.

Frankly, each tur... poo, would and should be used on multiple planets.

[ItsDan]

Perhaps its a holdover from early gate technology which used different calculation methods. Notice they haven't mentioned it at all in Atlantis, they just have the generic 'Activation' buttons on the PJ DHD's and the normal DHDs. They might just be assuming we don't want to hear about it any more, and that we're familiar with it.

[chriswin8]

Ok

[Seastallion]

The PoO is differend for all the gates, but it works everywere as the PoO.

So true...

If only folks would get that. It seems that too many people have placed far too much significance on the PoO symbol. It is necessary, but it has nothing to do with directing the wormhole to its destination.

[Seastallion]

Daniel explained it better. He uses Six coordinates. He said so. You can't change it because it isn't your show. They say they use six coordinates wich are symbls and the seventh being the PoO.

If not, then what ep. are you ref. to that can back it up?

Of COURSE you use 6 coordinates...! Good grief...

This is essentially what all the symbols combined look like:

X1,Y1,Z1,X2,Y2,Z2 + PoO = Wormhole activation to your destination.

8 Chevron addresses- X1,Y1,Z1,X2,Y2,Z2 + ~D + PoO = Intergalactic Wormhole. ( ~D is distance variable, included into the targeting coordinance.)

[Zamboni]

Of COURSE you use 6 coordinates...! Good grief...

This is essentially what all the symbols combined look like:

X1,Y1,Z1,X2,Y2,Z2 + PoO = Wormhole activation to your destination.

8 Chevron addresses- X1,Y1,Z1,X2,Y2,Z2 + ~D + PoO = Intergalactic Wormhole. ( ~D is distance variable, included into the targeting coordinance.)

Actually if you get (x1, y1, z1) and (x2, y2, z2) that's two coordinates and they form a vector. While it is possible to calculate an exact position given a vector and an origin (assuming you can get the accurate vector with just 38 possible choices for the entire universe), it is much easier to form a vector with two degree variables and the magnitude (ie. 30 by 60 by 10 gives you upper right for 10 units) which requires only 3 symbols and includes distance.

[LORD MONK]

Of COURSE you use 6 coordinates...! Good grief...

This is essentially what all the symbols combined look like:

X1,Y1,Z1,X2,Y2,Z2 + PoO = Wormhole activation to your destination.

8 Chevron addresses- X1,Y1,Z1,X2,Y2,Z2 + ~D + PoO = Intergalactic Wormhole. ( ~D is distance variable, included into the targeting coordinance.)

I agree. You are understanding.

Now all you need to do is except the fact that you need the PoO because it is where you are coming from. We can sit here all day long and talk about how their isn't enough symbols to go around. We can all agree on one thing. That is TPTB didn't realy think this through. I only say that the first six establishes where you are going and the seventh where you are coming from because that is what TPTB says and it is their show and I can't argue.

If I write a story and someone says you can't do that. Then I say go right your own story becasue in mine pigs fly and you can't argue with me. Even though we all know pigs don't fly they do in my story. The PoO is the same. We all know their isn't enough symbols to go around, but it's not our story.

[Zamboni]

I agree. You are understanding.

Now all you need to do is except the fact that you need the PoO because it is where you are coming from. We can sit here all day long and talk about how their isn't enough symbols to go around. We can all agree on one thing. That is TPTB didn't realy think this through. I only say that the first six establishes where you are going and the seventh where you are coming from because that is what TPTB says and it is their show and I can't argue.

If I write a story and someone says you can't do that. Then I say go right your own story becasue in mine pigs fly and you can't argue with me. Even though we all know pigs don't fly they do in my story. The PoO is the same. We all know their isn't enough symbols to go around, but it's not our story.

Well poo stinks. And while it is true that TPTB can make up whatever they want for their story we cannot forget the fact that it's a SCIENCE fiction. Science should come before fiction.

Disregarding that we are in a thread discussing the "Science and Tech" of this "Science Fiction". If your explanation for everything is that "it is so because TPTB said so and they are gods and are infallible" then there's really little point in making a thread and discussing it isn't there?

What we are trying to do in these discussions, I believe, is to *somehow* find a scientifically plausible explanation for things that don't make apparent sense. It is a sacre task placed upon our shoulders as royal fans to make things happen. The writers and creators just squeeze out their poo, we're the ones who have to take the whiff and say it smells good...

[LORD MONK]

I was thinking about this while trying to answer another question. I understand the concept of having to have 7 points to plot a course, 6 for the destination and one for the origin, as explained in the movie. But why did the Ancients even have a Point of Origin?

The gate dialing is much like that of a telephone, you dial a number, and no matter where you're calling from, you will connect to the same phone. It doesn't matter where the origin is. So if the first 6 symbols give you the destination of a gate, and those symbols will connect you to the same stargate no matter where the wormhole originates from, why would you bother to even have a Point of Origin symbol? It changes nothing about the wormhole connection and only complicates the process (as seen in the movie).

Any thoughts?

The gate system is nothing like a telephone at ALL. A stargate moves matter from one world to another across great distances. You can only go one way when the gate is active. If someone dials my gate I can't go through it and say whats up.

If you understand the concept of needing seven symbols to dial a gate then what is it you don't understand. You need to bother with a PoO because it concects the gates or something like that. You need it because of planetary drift. The planet is not always in the same stop. When the DHD's conect to calculate for PD it is stored in the seventh symbol. So when you put in the seventh the gate is like "O' here I am and their you are, let's connect."

[LORD MONK]

Well poo stinks. And while it is true that TPTB can make up whatever they want for their story we cannot forget the fact that it's a SCIENCE fiction. Science should come before fiction.

Disregarding that we are in a thread discussing the "Science and Tech" of this "Science Fiction". If your explanation for everything is that "it is so because TPTB said so and they are gods and are infallible" then there's really little point in making a thread and discussing it isn't there?

What we are trying to do in these discussions, I believe, is to *somehow* find a scientifically plausible explanation for things that don't make apparent sense. It is a sacre task placed upon our shoulders as royal fans to make things happen. The writers and creators just squeeze out their poo, we're the ones who have to take the whiff and say it smells good...

We are debating something that doesn't exist. So when you come down to the debate I listen to the person that made it up because it is their idea. If you actually went up to the writer that made up the seventh symbol and you tell him that you don't need it all he has to do is say go make a stargate without using the PoO and see if it works.

You are write it is science fiction. Not science with fiction.

Loved the whole poo thing at the end.

[Zamboni]

I'm not saying that we shouldn't have poo, I'm saying let's think of a way to make it scientifically sound while not contradicting what the creators defined.

Although to be honest, the movie and the show have significant differences on such things. For example the symbols on the DHD in the movie are different at every location. (not to mention Abydos is like, half way across the galaxy in the movie)

I'm no mathematician, but I'm sure when we put all the fan heads together we can come up with something that satisfies both the show and science...?

[LORD MONK]

I think the same. We can start on the posibilities.

First step.

Can soemone proof that the gates all have the same symbols? We need an ep.

Do the symbols need to be in the same order? After all if you are looking for a point, does it matter what order you put it in considering they are star consolations and not X,Y,Z to determine the destination.

There are a lot more questions to ask, I am just tired and need to go to bed.

[ItsDan]

I think they are X,Y,Z. Each symbol represents a point in space, as the show says, 6 making a final point in the middle of them all. The idea of using a constellation as a 'point' is silly. Planets in constellations can be thousands of lightyears apart.

[Seastallion]

Just once more... Yes, we are dealing with psuedo-science here. The point of this entire thread is NOT to figure out the real science of things on Stargate... rather... it is to take what we do know about real science and try and come up with the most plausible explanation of how things work within the parameters of what has been established by the show (as long as they don't contradict themselves... in that case you just have to go with the better explanation that fits the available facts you have). So yes... ultimately you can just make up any old explanation you want. You can just say it's "magic". But that is lame. Decide what you want, but as far as I know, I've explained the whole process the best I've heard it so far. If anyone has a more plausible explanation, go for it. As for me... I'm going to go with the best one that fits the available facts, as far as I know them to be. That is all anyone can really do. Now... on with my post.

I think they are X,Y,Z. Each symbol represents a point in space, as the show says, 6 making a final point in the middle of them all. The idea of using a constellation as a 'point' is silly. Planets in constellations can be thousands of lightyears apart.

Yeah... I had this whole thing worked out. I was thinking it was sort of plausible if that the symbols were never originally star constellations, but rather that the constellations themselves were based on the stargate symbols. Essentially, my theory is that the ancient peoples of Earth used the symbols on the stargate to 'make up' constellations. (which in real life constellations ARE made up.) We know that the stargate symbols are all alphabetic; that each symbol represents a sound that can be combined into names. So, if you know the full name of a place, and you also know what the symbols are for each syllable, then you will know the stargate address.

Now... if the stargate symbols are alphabetic... who is to say that they aren't also alpha-numeric? Each symbol represents a numerical value that matches an established pan-galactic X,Y,Z coordinates grid. After many thousands of years, because of stellar drift, the star location moves enough, that the X,Y,Z coordinates change in response to the star movement. Essentially, the gate address may only change by 2 or 3 symbols but mostly stay the same except for after many millions, possibly billions of years. After that long the gate address would cross through many permeatations, altering little by little each time it changes. Of course each individual change takes 100's of thousands of years themselves.

Okay... IF... you understand that the pan-galactic grid's central point IS the center of this galaxy, then you know that if there were a stargate at the exact center of the grid, its gate address's numerical value would look like this; x0,y0,z0 x0,y0,z0. Now, once you really get that, then you understand that the stargate addresses are NOT based on a single planet's perspecitve. If they were, every stargate would have thousands of different addresses, one for every other stargate in the galaxy. Since we know that you can use the same address to gate to another planet regardless of which planet you are gating from... this means that it is impossible for the stargate network to use individual planetary frames of reference. The only way it could work the way it does, is if all the stargates use the same exact frame of reference to target the positions of other stargates. To do that, you have to have a coordinates grid that covers the entire galaxy, AND is not based on a single planets frame of reference.

If all that is true... then the stargate network doesn't need to know where a wormhole is coming from to reach its destination. It doesn't matter, because the wormhole is always connected to original stargate anyways. It is like throwing a lasso... you don't need to know where you are exactly, you just need to know where your target is. Once the lasso is locked around the bull's horns, it gets anchored there. The same thing basically happens with the stargate upon arrival to the exit gate.

The Point of Origin symbol is important, as it identifies the individual gate your using (to the user, not the stargate network), and it also acts as an activation key for the gate. However, as far as being needed by the stargate as a factor in its targeting procedure, it's not needed. In many ways, the PoO symbol is like a simple "flag" that allows for quick identification of the planet your on. That is one reason why the SGC uses the pyramid-sun symbol on the Earth stargate as the representation symbol for Earth. Anyone who is familiar with the Stargate network (and knows about Earth) will identify the symbol immediately and know what world they are dealing with... or in the case of SGC personnel wearing the Earth Gate's PoO symbol, know where the people are from they're dealing with. In the same way companies design their own logos for easy identification, the Stargate uses the PoO symbol for the same thing.

Now obviously... if the stargate is moved to a new planet, the Point of Origin symbol doesn't change. So it is not guaranteed to always represent the planet it was previously on. On the other hand, if the civilization that the stargate was originally on moved it, they can still use the symbol to represent themselves. It also gives anyone that has the ability to make their own stargate, the opportunity to design their own PoO symbol. So, if Earth ever lost its stargate, but had the ability to construct a new one, they could use the old PoO symbol if they so chose, or make up a new one. Either way, it would not affect the operation of the stargate itself.