Why is there a Point of Origin?

[LORD MONK]

So... despite your previous claim of 'just fooling' your still in it? Funny.

Talk about lame claims...

I thought this thread was about the PoO.

I think that when the DHD's update it is stored in the PoO. They are all like, "I am over hear."

As far as the first six, sure the grid would work. That's what the star constllations do, they represent quadrants in space.

[Seastallion]

I understand your whole galactice grid theory and for a society as advanced as the ancients its certainly plausable. But I dont understand why you think there is no need for a PoO especially in this sort of system. If you compare it to latitude and longitude on a map. Even in a two dimentional framework the PoO is still just as important as the destination co-ordinance and neither system would work with out it.

Even using your analogy of the bull and lasso, to know where your target is you must first know where you are and both are equivatibly linked. If you were taken blind folded in to a room and told its in the top right corner you would need to know where you are in relation to the top right corner.

If the show has any scientific basis there has to be a point of origin in any navigational system. There is the obvious plot hole tho that even tho in the show the symbols appear to be based on star constilations that over such a long period of time these constalation would change shape with planetary drift, making the representing symbols some what redundent. Unless the gate system symbols are updated its doubtful orions belt even existed when the gates were first built, as it appears today.

Essentially I agree with you. As to the point about the stargate knowing where itself is, I absolutely agree. I stated as much in a much earlier post in this thread. However, as to the functional use of the Point of Origin symbol on the stargate, it adds absolutely nothing to the stargate address itself. The PoO symbol is ONLY an activation device, nothing more. This seems to be the main point of contention here... Yes, the gate knows where itself is, but the PoO symbol has nothing to do with telling the other stargates where it is. It is only an activation key, nothing more.

Adding onto Gate's thought, Teal'c pointed out the stars looked different when they traveled back in time.


I understand your whole galactice grid theory and for a society as advanced as the ancients its certainly plausable. But I dont understand why you think there is no need for a PoO especially in this sort of system. If you compare it to latitude and longitude on a map. Even in a two dimentional framework the PoO is still just as important as the destination co-ordinance and neither system would work with out it.


The issue isn't whether you need a point of origin to plot a course, you do, that's not being argued. A course by definition is the connection of 2 points. The issue is simply:

1. Does the point of origin change when you move the gate to another planet?
2. If yes, does that mean each gate can only be placed on a maximum of 39 unique worlds?
3. If no, then actually dialing the symbol is redundant, and I'm going on the theory it's simply an 'activation' command for the gate.

I think the 'no' arguement is supported by things like the Gate Ship being able to dial any gate by using its 'home' / 'activate' symbol, and not a specific symbol, and other anecdotal evidence.

I think Dan and I are roughly on the same page on this particular issue. Every stargate in the galaxy (there are thousands), has its own unique PoO symbol. If you remember the VR Chair world, it had the little Tornado PoO symbol, whereas Earth has the Sun-Pyramid. All the stargates have the same 38 coordinate symbols, as do the DHD's. (or at least they're supposed to. Production has flopped on that one occaisonally I think...) The Stargate itself has 39 symbols... the basic 38 plus the unique PoO symbol, and the DHD has just the 38 basic symbols... and the 'Big Red Button' which represents the PoO symbol.

I think that when the DHD's update it is stored in the PoO. They are all like, "I am over hear."

As far as the first six, sure the grid would work. That's what the star constllations do, they represent quadrants in space.

The point is... as long as the stargate itself knows where it is, it has NO NEED to tell any other stargate its location. Anyhow we know it doesn't because a person has no way of knowing where an incoming wormhole is coming from, until after activation, and even then only if they receive a signal from someone on the otherside telling them. (nice ignore by the way... )

[Gate Master]

Adding onto Gate's thought, Teal'c pointed out the stars looked different when they traveled back in time.


I understand your whole galactice grid theory and for a society as advanced as the ancients its certainly plausable. But I dont understand why you think there is no need for a PoO especially in this sort of system. If you compare it to latitude and longitude on a map. Even in a two dimentional framework the PoO is still just as important as the destination co-ordinance and neither system would work with out it.


The issue isn't whether you need a point of origin to plot a course, you do, that's not being argued. A course by definition is the connection of 2 points. The issue is simply:

1. Does the point of origin change when you move the gate to another planet?
2. If yes, does that mean each gate can only be placed on a maximum of 39 unique worlds?
3. If no, then actually dialing the symbol is redundant, and I'm going on the theory it's simply an 'activation' command for the gate.

I think the 'no' arguement is supported by things like the Gate Ship being able to dial any gate by using its 'home' / 'activate' symbol, and not a specific symbol, and other anecdotal evidence.

I can certainly see where you and seastallion are coming from, and as suggested the symbol is mainly meaningless as a means of determining where you are. It is in effect a computor short cut to imputing the 6symbols of origin.

On a planets DHD this would be easy as it would be calibrated when placed on the planet and updated with the corralitive updates.

Ship based DHD's are more complicated but with the Gateships I imagine that they update their PoO every time they go through a Gate to the symbols imputed in the DHD initially and then update the quick key activation button. Knowing the ancients there would be other safe guards for when the gate is activated by other means such as perhaps using starmapping tech or networking with any nearby DHD's to establish its position.The quick key could then be updated, all perhaps done with out the users direct knowledge as an automated function.

When the gate has been used on mother ships I imagine that the Gouald tied the symbol in to their navigational computor and updated it accordingly as they would have intended to use it in various locations. Whilst on the Asgard ship knowing their tech and how automated they like things it was most likely updated through the ships navigational system automatically once beamed on board.

While none of these have been mentioned in the show its logical to assume for purposes of navigation under these circiumstances that the advanced races would employ some if not all of these or use some other perhaps more effective method.

[ItsDan]

I think the simpler answer is just that the ship based dialing and gates dont need to be updated, as theyre just instructed to activate. One of those things I doubt they'll even deal with in the show.

Also, Carter said the correlative updates were something that happened every few hundred years. That would make them ineffective for updating a gate when it moves to a new planet. Infact those updates are still infact theoretical, the SGC only THOUGHT they did those updates. The virus could have spread because Ba'al included in the virus a reprogramming which caused the DHDs to spread it via the gates.

[Gate Master]

I think the simpler answer is just that the ship based dialing and gates dont need to be updated, as theyre just instructed to activate. One of those things I doubt they'll even deal with in the show.

Also, Carter said the correlative updates were something that happened every few hundred years. That would make them ineffective for updating a gate when it moves to a new planet. Infact those updates are still infact theoretical, the SGC only THOUGHT they did those updates. The virus could have spread because Ba'al included in the virus a reprogramming which caused the DHDs to spread it via the gates.

I didn't mean to suggest that the corralitive updates work when a gate is moved only when left for thousands of years. When its moved it would need to be calibrated to its new planet or if on a ship it would be a simple matter for a technological advanced race to link it to the ships navigational computor.
If the science was to work tho in reality it would have to be updated regardless of its location but in the show who knows with all the continuity errors rearding the gate.

[ItsDan]

In order for correlative updates to work, the DHD's have to be able to 'find' each other, perhaps through subspace communications? I doubt they dial randomly to find other gates to spread their new updates to. Perhaps in the DHD protocol there's a message titled "PSSSST, hey buddy, where am I?".

[LORD MONK]

The gate is updated when the DHD updates itself. Whe never that is. And that info is stored in the seventh symbol being the PoO. Or 39th symbol. That is the seventh symbol that you push in, not hit the red button.
I with Gate Master on how it does it when you move the gate. You have to be technologicaly advanced enough to do it. But the compters can do it. That would be cool to show up with a Stargate abourd one of are ships to save the Tollan. All right throwing the Tollan in their is a stretch.

[LORD MONK]

"PSSSST, hey buddy, where am I?".

That's funny!!!!
Tha's what cell phones do when they are roaming.
"Hey Satalite, where am I"

[ItsDan]

Presumably the 'upgraded' gate system in Pegasus to do correlative updates without a DHD, since the space gates don't use one.

Little off topic, I rewatched Rising just now to see how many symbols Rodney dialed. Anyone have a rendering of how many chevrons are on the gate? There only appear to be 7, but the bottom of the gate is in the floor, and geometrically there would be an 8th there (if the spacing continued I mean), but there's no magical 9th chevron. Perhaps the Lanteans didn't want to confuse their TV watching fans millenia later.

Also interesting is that Rodney dials 7 symbols but only 6 chevrons activate, he then pushes the middle 'activate' button to lock in the home symbol, effectively using 2 button presses for the home symbol.

[Pasankoon]

The Pegusian Gate Network still contains nine chevrons. However there are only 36 symbols to the dialing system 35 constallations and 1 point of origin Unlike the Milky Way Gate Network which has 39, 38 constelations and 1 origin. The constallation symbols are also different to the Milky Way Gate Network. Points of Origin are still unique to every single gate.

[LORD MONK]

Presumably the 'upgraded' gate system in Pegasus to do correlative updates without a DHD, since the space gates don't use one.

Little off topic, I rewatched Rising just now to see how many symbols Rodney dialed. Anyone have a rendering of how many chevrons are on the gate? There only appear to be 7, but the bottom of the gate is in the floor, and geometrically there would be an 8th there (if the spacing continued I mean), but there's no magical 9th chevron. Perhaps the Lanteans didn't want to confuse their TV watching fans millenia later.

Also interesting is that Rodney dials 7 symbols but only 6 chevrons activate, he then pushes the middle 'activate' button to lock in the home symbol, effectively using 2 button presses for the home symbol.

Their are Nine chevrons with the ninth being under the ramp.
You dial seven then hit the button. "seventh chevron locked, then the shoop." The seventh is a symbol that you must push in then you hit the big button. Or send button.

[Pasankoon]

The Pegusian Gate Network still contains nine chevrons. However there are only 36 symbols to the dialing system 35 constallations and 1 point of origin Unlike the Milky Way Gate Network which has 39, 38 constelations and 1 origin. The constallation symbols are also different to the Milky Way Gate Network. Points of Origin are still unique to every single gate.

The supergates dont appear to have chevrons but it has 80 different components.

[Turboz]

I hope no-one minds me coming back with another response but I have a different analogy.

Various people here are insistant that the PoO is a requirement and that the SG isn't like a phone network at all. True, we aren't dialling phones here but..

I'd like to bring another analogy into play:

When the pilot fo a F-14, F-15 or F-18 fires a heatseeking missile, (Before anyone here gets funny towards me "Missle" for the americans) does the missile need to know where it's currently located?

No. It see's the heat source it is chasing and adjusts it's rudder/elevator/elevon flaps accordingly to try and keep the heat source central until the rocket propulsion has propelled it to the target and detonates.

My point here is that the missile/missle doesn't need to know where it is to find/seek/chase it's target. It simply see's it, locks on, and goes for the target.

Why then, can a stargate not do the same? - Why can a stargate not see it's target from it's position by using the 6 co-ordinates and then lock onto it without a PoO?

I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong here I'm simply raising another idea which might open people's minds a little.

-Turboz

[Seastallion]

Of COURSE you use 6 coordinates...! Good grief...

This is essentially what all the symbols combined look like:

X1,Y1,Z1,X2,Y2,Z2 + PoO = Wormhole activation to your destination.

8 Chevron addresses- X1,Y1,Z1,X2,Y2,Z2 + ~D + PoO = Intergalactic Wormhole. ( ~D is distance variable, included into the targeting coordinance.)

This is the image I would've liked to have put up.



...and this..!

[Turboz]

I see no-one has managed to shoot down my theory yet. IF you need a point of origin for the gate to know where your coming from, then:

Why is the origin not entered as a further 6 symbols? - IE 6 for the target and 6 for the source?

Otherwise, how come 1 symbol locates the source but you need 6 for the destination? - Why not use 1? eh?

Like I said, in reality I don't think the PoO is actually needed. Refer to my heat seaking missile analogy above.

-Turboz