Why is there a Point of Origin?

[LORD MONK]

Star Constolations are not made up. They are rea and you can go outside at night and see them for yourself. If we are going to devate this then you can't make stuff up like the center of the universe. Because their is no center. Everything is moving and we would have to descover the edges of space before we can find the middle.


This is what we do know.
The symbols represent star contillations.
Six symbols determine were you are going. Then Six isn't the the middle.
Seventh being where you are.

So if you are going to say lets take what we know and go from their, you can't change what we know and say NO that's not right.

[LORD MONK]

Star Constolations are not made up. They are rea and you can go outside at night and see them for yourself. If we are going to devate this then you can't make stuff up like the center of the universe. Because their is no center. Everything is moving and we would have to descover the edges of space before we can find the middle.


This is what we do know.
The symbols represent star contillations.
Six symbols determine were you are going. Then Six isn't the the middle.
Seventh being where you are.

So if you are going to say lets take what we know and go from their, you can't change what we know and say NO that's not right.

[Seastallion]

Star Constolations are not made up. They are rea and you can go outside at night and see them for yourself. If we are going to devate this then you can't make stuff up like the center of the universe. Because their is no center. Everything is moving and we would have to descover the edges of space before we can find the middle.


This is what we do know.
The symbols represent star contillations.
Six symbols determine were you are going. Then Six isn't the the middle.
Seventh being where you are.

So if you are going to say lets take what we know and go from their, you can't change what we know and say NO that's not right.

*sigh*

Oh grasshopper... You have much to learn.

Star Constellations WERE made up. The ancient peoples of Earth made pictures in the sky by connecting the stars together (sort of like connect the dots). The constellations were only constellations because people made them up. The stars are real, but the constellations are mere fabrications that people made up. Incidentally, they ARE useful for helping people to remember the locations of stars. BUT they ARE made up.

On the way to enlightenment, you must learn to read carefully as well grasshopper...

I did NOT say the center of the Universe, I said the center of the Galaxy. There is a huge difference.

I hope you have learned your lesson well, this time grasshopper.

[Zamboni]

Hasn't it been established that the Gate Symbols are actually just Ancient Texts? Perhaps the constellations are made up the *other* way around: instead of early sailors looking up the sky and assign random names, maybe the Ancients somehow taught them to look for those constellations and the names were given by the sailors to sound more "Earthy"?

*spoiler for season 7 ending*

When Jack recited "pah cla ruge tae oh nas" or "park garage day pwness" or whatever on that crossword puzzle, didn't Daniel said the Ancients must've just turned the symbols into words and use that to memorize gate addresses?

If so then the symbols must be the same on each DHD otherwise it'd be futile like dialing 555-1234 on a phone that uses alphabets or something.

We know the symbols are not numbers (I'm sure someone else can cite an example of ancient numerals) so they must represent something else.

Basically what I've established here is that DHD symbols are all the same and the symbols are likely not numbers.

[LORD MONK]

*sigh*

Oh grasshopper... You have much to learn.

Star Constellations WERE made up. The ancient peoples of Earth made pictures in the sky by connecting the stars together (sort of like connect the dots). The constellations were only constellations because people made them up. The stars are real, but the constellations are mere fabrications that people made up. Incidentally, they ARE useful for helping people to remember the locations of stars. BUT they ARE made up.

On the way to enlightenment, you must learn to read carefully as well grasshopper...

I did NOT say the center of the Universe, I said the center of the Galaxy. There is a huge difference.

I hope you have learned your lesson well, this time grasshopper.

Some day you will come full circle.

Universe, Galaxy, who cares, it's not a grid. The stars always look the same from Earth. With us making the point or destination.


So PLEASE, think outside the box. Or in the star constellations.

[Seastallion]

Some day you will come full circle.

Universe, Galaxy, who cares, it's not a grid. The stars always look the same from Earth. With us making the point or destination.


So PLEASE, think outside the box. Or in the star constellations.

*sigh* Oh grasshopper...! You STILL don't get it.

After many 100's of thousands of years even the stars from an Earth perspective won't still look the same. (Astronomy 101) Why? Stellar drift... that is the revolution that every star takes around the galactic core. It takes many, many millions of years for a star to complete one full circle around the galactic core. The "grid" as I've called it, is an imaginary 'box' that encompasses the entire galaxy into an X,Y,Z coordinate system.

The point IS, that the stargate does NOT use an Earth perspective as its operating system. It uses a system that is the same all over the galaxy. Which is the point I've been trying to get across to you. So... it is YOU who are the one that needs to climb out of your sand box, and look around.

I wish you luck grasshopper. May you find the light...

Hasn't it been established that the Gate Symbols are actually just Ancient Texts? Perhaps the constellations are made up the *other* way around: instead of early sailors looking up the sky and assign random names, maybe the Ancients somehow taught them to look for those constellations and the names were given by the sailors to sound more "Earthy"?

*spoiler for season 7 ending*

When Jack recited "pah cla ruge tae oh nas" or "park garage day pwness" or whatever on that crossword puzzle, didn't Daniel said the Ancients must've just turned the symbols into words and use that to memorize gate addresses?

If so then the symbols must be the same on each DHD otherwise it'd be futile like dialing 555-1234 on a phone that uses alphabets or something.

We know the symbols are not numbers (I'm sure someone else can cite an example of ancient numerals) so they must represent something else.

Basically what I've established here is that DHD symbols are all the same and the symbols are likely not numbers.

Most of what you said, I just finished explaining myself. In my post-before-last, I had just brought the posssibility that the star constellations were based on the Stargate symbols, instead of the other way around. Basically, you just repeated my point. But, if you didn't read it, good catch. Your further along than grasshopper. Yes, yes... it HAS been established that the stargate symbols are also phonetic. Or alphabetic, which is basically the same thing. I also mentioned that earlier. Also, yes, the symbols on the DHD are the same everywhere in the galaxy. Also another point I made earlier.

Now... as to the stargate symbols not representing numeric values... well that is just plain wrong. Many ancient cultures used many of their writing symbols as both phonetic AND numeric representations. If you recall, in the episode "Thor's Hammer" the ancient norse runes did the same thing. So, it is most likely that the stargate symbols are alpha-numeric, and not just phonetic. Also, as Daniel explained in the episode you were refering to, it is likely that the Ancients simply added phonetic values to each symbol so that a stargate address could be spoken aloud as words, rather than naming individual symbols. It is far less time consuming to say a couple of words (with each syllable representing a stargate symbol), to describe your destination than to recite the entire list of coordinate symbols.

So... half of what you supposedly 'established' was something I pointed out a long time ago... and the other half is wrong. The Stargate symbols are alpha-numeric. Not just alphabetic.

[NoDot]

Yes, yes... it HAS been established that the stargate symbols are also phonetic. Or alphabetic, which is basically the same thing.

No, I don't believe it's the same thing. I very much doubt the symbols are anything more than a sub-/proto-language they created to name planets. The gate symbols likely have other meaning (the coordinate parts they represent), but as far as the "language" goes, it really isn't, yet.

Now, it's possible a world could develop an alphabet based on the gate symbols, (Atlantis could've done this, and it would've been funny) and, if they knew how to work the gate, design their language based on that, but I doubt that.

[Seastallion]

No, I don't believe it's the same thing. I very much doubt the symbols are anything more than a sub-/proto-language they created to name planets. The gate symbols likely have other meaning (the coordinate parts they represent), but as far as the "language" goes, it really isn't, yet.

Now, it's possible a world could develop an alphabet based on the gate symbols, (Atlantis could've done this, and it would've been funny) and, if they knew how to work the gate, design their language based on that, but I doubt that.

I wasn't implying that they created a 'stargate language'. I was just saying that they created a phonetic system that they applied to the stargate symbols to create names for planets. I don't think it was ever intended to be a complete language. Just a phonetic identification system, that encodes the stargate address at the same time.

[NoDot]

I wasn't implying that they created a 'stargate language'. I was just saying that they created a phonetic system that they applied to the stargate symbols to create names for planets. I don't think it was ever intended to be a complete language. Just a phonetic identification system, that encodes the stargate address at the same time.

Well, to me you were comming off (unintentionally) as implying that the "Stargate Language" was a full language when it wasn't.

And it's simply logical to make a simple phoenic system for naming the planets. It's what I'd've done, probably.

[LORD MONK]

*sigh* Oh grasshopper...! You STILL don't get it.

After many 100's of thousands of years even the stars from an Earth perspective won't still look the same. (Astronomy 101) Why? Stellar drift... that is the revolution that every star takes around the galactic core. It takes many, many millions of years for a star to complete one full circle around the galactic core. The "grid" as I've called it, is an imaginary 'box' that encompasses the entire galaxy into an X,Y,Z coordinate system.

The point IS, that the stargate does NOT use an Earth perspective as its operating system. It uses a system that is the same all over the galaxy. Which is the point I've been trying to get across to you. So... it is YOU who are the one that needs to climb out of your sand box, and look around.

I wish you luck grasshopper. May you find the light...

OK. I am done and I will let you in on it Me and my buddies have been messing with you. I know that a long long long time from now that the stars will be different.

So, with that said you can't go around and think you know everything about something that doesn't exist. You take the facts that we know and say NO to them...... Can't do that. That is the symbols represent star contillations so don't change it. After all the stargate doesn't exist or is it in theory. And please don't say it is. You will be just feeding my buddies with more of your made-up-ness.

It has been fun though.

[LORD MONK]

Just once more... Yes, we are dealing with psuedo-science here. The point of this entire thread is NOT to figure out the real science of things on Stargate... rather... it is to take what we do know about real science and try and come up with the most plausible explanation of how things work within the parameters of what has been established by the show (as long as they don't contradict themselves... in that case you just have to go with the better explanation that fits the available facts you have). So yes... ultimately you can just make up any old explanation you want. You can just say it's "magic". But that is lame. Decide what you want, but as far as I know, I've explained the whole process the best I've heard it so far. If anyone has a more plausible explanation, go for it. As for me... I'm going to go with the best one that fits the available facts, as far as I know them to be. That is all anyone can really do. Now... on with my post.

What has been established is you need six symbols that represent star contillations. and the seventh being where you are coming from being the point of origin.......can't change it it is what you know.


So please stop making stuff up to fit your own thought. I can say it was magic like you said and you will have to deal with it. Although like you said would be lame. So stop telling people you are right and we are wrong because you are wrong and we are at least closer then you are. You took the only thing we can go on and through it away and made a grid out of space.... Very good.

[Seastallion]

OK. I am done and I will let you in on it Me and my buddies have been messing with you. I know that a long long long time from now that the stars will be different.

So, with that said you can't go around and think you know everything about something that doesn't exist. You take the facts that we know and say NO to them...... Can't do that. That is the symbols represent star contillations so don't change it. After all the stargate doesn't exist or is it in theory. And please don't say it is. You will be just feeding my buddies with more of your made-up-ness.

It has been fun though.

Your funny...

I don't claim to know everything. I just try to come up with the best plausibility that fits the given details. We're talking about what has been established within the TV show. I do understand that. Talk about 'made-up-ness'... take a look at your own stuff. Obviously you don't fully comprehend a forum such as this. Of course its all fake... but the point of this forum is to workout how such things could actually work. You don't get that.

Plausibility... That's what it is all about. Personally, I think you can't stand the heat. Since you can't defend your arguments, your pretending to take the high-ground by pulling yourself out of the debate. I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. By doing so, you automatically forfeit your claim.

Oh well...

[Seastallion]

What has been established is you need six symbols that represent star contillations. and the seventh being where you are coming from being the point of origin.......can't change it it is what you know.


So please stop making stuff up to fit your own thought. I can say it was magic like you said and you will have to deal with it. Although like you said would be lame. So stop telling people you are right and we are wrong because you are wrong and we are at least closer then you are. You took the only thing we can go on and through it away and made a grid out of space.... Very good.

So... despite your previous claim of 'just fooling' your still in it? Funny.

Talk about lame claims...

[Gate Master]

Okay... IF... you understand that the pan-galactic grid's central point IS the center of this galaxy, then you know that if there were a stargate at the exact center of the grid, its gate address's numerical value would look like this; x0,y0,z0 x0,y0,z0. Now, once you really get that, then you understand that the stargate addresses are NOT based on a single planet's perspecitve. If they were, every stargate would have thousands of different addresses, one for every other stargate in the galaxy. Since we know that you can use the same address to gate to another planet regardless of which planet you are gating from... this means that it is impossible for the stargate network to use individual planetary frames of reference. The only way it could work the way it does, is if all the stargates use the same exact frame of reference to target the positions of other stargates. To do that, you have to have a coordinates grid that covers the entire galaxy, AND is not based on a single planets frame of reference.

If all that is true... then the stargate network doesn't need to know where a wormhole is coming from to reach its destination. It doesn't matter, because the wormhole is always connected to original stargate anyways. It is like throwing a lasso... you don't need to know where you are exactly, you just need to know where your target is. Once the lasso is locked around the bull's horns, it gets anchored there. The same thing basically happens with the stargate upon arrival to the exit gate.

I understand your whole galactice grid theory and for a society as advanced as the ancients its certainly plausable. But I dont understand why you think there is no need for a PoO especially in this sort of system. If you compare it to latitude and longitude on a map. Even in a two dimentional framework the PoO is still just as important as the destination co-ordinance and neither system would work with out it.

Even using your analogy of the bull and lasso, to know where your target is you must first know where you are and both are equivatibly linked. If you were taken blind folded in to a room and told its in the top right corner you would need to know where you are in relation to the top right corner.

If the show has any scientific basis there has to be a point of origin in any navigational system. There is the obvious plot hole tho that even tho in the show the symbols appear to be based on star constilations that over such a long period of time these constalation would change shape with planetary drift, making the representing symbols some what redundent. Unless the gate system symbols are updated its doubtful orions belt even existed when the gates were first built, as it appears today.

[ItsDan]

Adding onto Gate's thought, Teal'c pointed out the stars looked different when they traveled back in time.


I understand your whole galactice grid theory and for a society as advanced as the ancients its certainly plausable. But I dont understand why you think there is no need for a PoO especially in this sort of system. If you compare it to latitude and longitude on a map. Even in a two dimentional framework the PoO is still just as important as the destination co-ordinance and neither system would work with out it.


The issue isn't whether you need a point of origin to plot a course, you do, that's not being argued. A course by definition is the connection of 2 points. The issue is simply:

1. Does the point of origin change when you move the gate to another planet?
2. If yes, does that mean each gate can only be placed on a maximum of 39 unique worlds?
3. If no, then actually dialing the symbol is redundant, and I'm going on the theory it's simply an 'activation' command for the gate.

I think the 'no' arguement is supported by things like the Gate Ship being able to dial any gate by using its 'home' / 'activate' symbol, and not a specific symbol, and other anecdotal evidence.