Weapon on Dakara effect on Wraith

[Schrodinger82]

And this is? It is true, it does not say the device "seeds life" however it does say it creates it.

Yes, he did say that. Right before he corrected himself on his position.

What he actually says is that the device was "used" to "recreate" life.

As we've already explained, the word "use" can apply to any step in an entire process.

For instance, suppose I made a statement that I "use" a fork to "eat" spaghetti. Now, does that mean that the fork serves as part of my digestive system? No, it just means that the fork was instrumental in the overall process.

As we further explained, this "use" can refer to creating a clean slate post-plague. This is supported by empirical evidence from the show, as this interpretation would not only be contextually consistent with what Anubis said, but factually consistent with how the device works. In terms of not only description, but also the controls. Again, how the heck are you suppose to program a device to recognize and re-construct a 3,000,000,000 unit long genetic sequence by pushing a dozen or so stones up and down?

Finally, and most important of all, the whole idea that the device resequences DNA doesn't make any sense. I mean, we can't even describe how such a device that seeds life via the stargate would ever even work.

Logic dictates that there, the device does NOT work by manipulating DNA. Furthermore, logic dictates that it shouldn't have to, since the quote you've provided is far insufficient for showing that it does.

[_Owen_]

The word recreating is equal to creating multiple times. While the word is diffrent, it still means basically the same thing. When you recreate a piece of art, you are still creating another piece of art.

The device must somehow tamper with DNA, seeing as it is an integral part of life, and if it is going to be creating or recreating life it must somehow alter or create it.

Owen Macri

[Schrodinger82]

The word recreating is equal to creating multiple times. While the word is diffrent, it still means basically the same thing. When you recreate a piece of art, you are still creating another piece of art.

You're not listening, dude. We've explained this to you.

The phrase "used to" can refer to any step in an entire process.

For instance, the act of running my car involves having some sort of internal combustion engine that allows it to move forward and backwards. But if I use the phrase "I use my key to run my car," it does NOT mean the same thing as "I use my key to function as an internal combustion engine."

The act of eating requires that I ingest some sort of foreign substance, where it is broken down and absorbed in my digestive system. But if I use the phrase "I use my fork to eat spaghetti," it does NOT mean the same thing as "I use a fork as a substitute for my internal digestive system."

And finally, the phrase "The device on Dakara was used to recreate life" does not equal "the device on Dakara manipulates DNA."

The device must somehow tamper with DNA,

WRONG.

That's a blatantly false assumption on your part with absolutely nothing to back it up other than a completely unnecessary extrapolation on your part.

seeing as it is an integral part of life, and if it is going to be creating or recreating life it must somehow alter or create it.

Now you're just regurgitating yourself in the face of insurmountable evidence against you.

Your basic fallacy of confusing a necessary device with a sufficient device. In other words, we know that the device on Dakara was necessary in order to recreate life. We do not, and have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that the device would be sufficient.

In order to recreate, you need two parts: First, the destruction of the old, and the creation of the new. Both parts are neccessary, but neither part is sufficient. Do you understand that? Am I going slowly enough for you to follow?

We know that the device on Dakara is capable of destroying matter. We know this because this is how it is described on the show. It successfully fulfils the first criterion of "recreation," and thus, would be consistent with what Anubis said. That does not mean that it fulfils the second criterion. Especially considering that we have absolutely no reason to believe it should have to.

Again, am I going slowly enough for you? Do I have to go even slower?

Once again, a device that would work by manipulating DNA wouldn't even work, because you couldn't seed complex life in this manner. Furthermore, the level of complexity involved would be impossible to accomplish via the controls that we've seen. Finally, the way you're describing how the device works is completely different from how Sam's dad described it.

[An Ancient]

As has been noted I think already, an 'original' form of the Dakara weapon mounted in an dusrupter like the one O'Neill used could be a very effective weapon against the Wraith.

I'd like to also put foward my own theory on why the Ancient's lost Pegasus, we know from 'Before I Sleep' that Pegasus/Earth travel was rare/non-existent, but also remember what went to Pegasus, one city, with perhaps a few escorts. Not the entire Ancient civilisation, their millitary, or their best minds. If they went there to 'explore' the place, then essentially the wraith were not up against the Ancients, they were up against a a small bunch of explorers with no idea how to fight a war save perhaps a few on the warships and a couple of scientists who could experiment with new weapons. As such, they would've been far easier to overcome, and even then they chewed the Wraith up quite well in the process. It's like saying that just because 3rd world country X defeated 150 US Marines and a few thousand researchers on an isolated island, that they could take on the entire US.

[_Owen_]

You're not listening, dude. We've explained this to you.

The phrase "used to" can refer to any step in an entire process.

For instance, the act of running my car involves having some sort of internal combustion engine that allows it to move forward and backwards. But if I use the phrase "I use my key to run my car," it does NOT mean the same thing as "I use my key to function as an internal combustion engine."

The act of eating requires that I ingest some sort of foreign substance, where it is broken down and absorbed in my digestive system. But if I use the phrase "I use my fork to eat spaghetti," it does NOT mean the same thing as "I use a fork as a substitute for my internal digestive system."

And finally, the phrase "The device on Dakara was used to recreate life" does not equal "the device on Dakara manipulates DNA."

You are walking an almost non-existent line. First of all, you don't use your key to run your car you use it to trigger the procces which starts your car. You don't use your fork to eat spaghetti, you use your fork to transfer the spaghetti from your plate or bowl to your mouth.

Ok, to create life, recreate life, or whatever you must tamper with DNA, that is inevitable, the device was used to recreate life in the milky way galaxy, how exactly do you propose that it was only one step in the process, and what exactly completed the other steps/where the other steps.

WRONG.

That's a blatantly false assumption on your part with absolutely nothing to back it up other than a completely unnecessary extrapolation on your part.

My what big reasoning you have!

Then if you do not believe this is the way in which the Dakara device works, please propose to me how it could recreate life based on what we have seen.

Owen Macri

[Col. Newman]

this thread seemed interesting enough to bring me out of retirement.

down to business.

i dont really think it would be possible to program the dakara device to kill a specific race, especially when that race shares genes with humans and ancients. the device is programmed to break the molecular bonds of everything it hits so that everything is broken down into its base elements, correct? now they were able to program the device to emit the specific "frequency" if you will, that broke the bonds between the replicator blocks. now that was possible because the nature of the replicators design and the biological systems of everything else were so radically different. however the similarities between the wraith and most other life would be much greater. carbon based life forms cellular make up is basically the same, just different configurations basically. so an energy wave that would break down the wraith would most likely affect most other biological creatures, and definately would effect humans and ancients since the wraith are human/bug hybrids, and Ancients are just more advanced humans. its highly unlikely that the device could be programmed to just effect the wraith.

I agree totally, sorry Owen but i think you are wrong on this one lol, well i guess there is a first time for everything

[Schrodinger82]

You are walking an almost non-existent line. First of all, you don't use your key to run your car you use it to trigger the procces which starts your car. You don't use your fork to eat spaghetti, you use your fork to transfer the spaghetti from your plate or bowl to your mouth.

And you don't use the weapon on Dakara to seed life, you use it to break down matter post-plague so that you have a blank slate to start with. Thank you, the same logic applies in all circumstance.

And just out of curiousity, how many people do you know who run their cars without first using a key, or who eat spaghetti without first using a fork?

Ok, to create life, recreate life, or whatever you must tamper with DNA, that is inevitable, the device was used to recreate life in the milky way galaxy, how exactly do you propose that it was only one step in the process, and what exactly completed the other steps/where the other steps.

Once again, sufficient definition versus necessary definition.

Here, I'll draw a finer example for you. Suppose I make the statement, "I use a security camera to see what's going on in the store."

So does that mean that a survelliance camera on it's own will allow me to see what's going on? No. Because I still need other devices, such as a television monitor, an electrical system, wire cabling, a set of eyes, a brain to process information, etc.

The security camera is arguably a necessary step in this process, but not a sufficient one.

Or, let's say "I use my key to get inside my house." Again, necessary, but not sufficient. For instance, in addition to using my key, I also have to open the door and walk forward. Neither one is implied through the "use" of a key, but that does not mean that a key was not used.

Then if you do not believe this is the way in which the Dakara device works, please propose to me how it could recreate life based on what we have seen.

False dilema. Just because we don't know which device they DID use doesn't mean it had to be the weapon on Dakara. We also don't know how the Ancients built their ZPM's or how they went to the bathroom, but I'm pretty sure that the weapon on Dakara wasn't responsible either of those as well.

How did the Ancients do it? Honestly, we don't know how much of the "seeding" was done by them, and how much was done by the Gou'ald. Most of the time, the only examples we have of "alien life" are people and trees, which the gou'ald could have brought with them. We also need to get more details on the plague itself, which will be available later this season.

However, we do know that the Gou'ald managed to seed life without the Dakara device.

We also know that the Ancients were once able to seed life without the Dakara device as well, seeing as how they already seeded life around the galaxy pre-plague, where as the Dakara device wasn't built until post-plague.

Hence, it stands to reason that the Ancients have a means of seeding life outside of the Dakara device. It also stands to reason that the controls on the Dakara device are nowhere near complex enough to handle the operation itself. And so, it stands to reason that they did not, in fact, use the Dakara device to seed life.

[Col. Newman]

And you don't use the weapon on Dakara to seed life, you use it to break down matter post-plague so that you have a blank slate to start with.

exactly, Owen seems to be losing brain cell or something lately, less weed for Owen