Asgard Core & ZPMs

[Arumantis]

Hi! I have a question: Why the asgard core onboard the Oddysey wasn't used to create ZPMs? We know it can create things, for example in SG-1 "Unending" Carter created an instrument and tretonin for Teal'c, so why not create ZPMs?

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

Too hard or the Asgard would have told us and probably been able to give some.

[thekillman]

it would throw all laws of physics out of the window

[asdf1239]

doesn't it also break "laws of physics" for darts to dematerialize zpms as seen in spoils of war

[Mike.]

it would throw all laws of physics out of the window

Not necessarily. The crystal that extracts the zero point energy is made of regular matter; there probably isn't anything special about the pocket of subspace either. The key is the mechanism's ability to drain all the power within it, and in the end leave something with maximum entropy.

They could do it. Easily. Lots and lots of them. Why they didn't:
1. The Asgard didn't have the schematics of a working ZPM on file. Either the Ancients didn't give it to them or the Asgard couldn't find the "needle in the haystack" in the Repository of Knowledge.
2. It would give too much power to the characters. SG rules state that anything so awesome must be destroyed by the end of the episode or be otherwise unusable for various other reasons.

[thekillman]

actually yes it does. it's an artificial contained region of subspace, thus creating them is either violation of matter conservation, OR you need to imput the energy of the ZPM

[Mike.]

Keep in mind that the principle behind ZPMs is not a matter-energy conversion, but extraction of vacuum energy. Theoretically zero point energy is infinite because it is a minimum energy below which a thermodynamic system can never go. The fact that ZPMs deplete (and the explanation) is a concession we make to the show. They should last forever.

Though I could see why you'd get confused about mixing real physics with TV technobabble that may or may not be grounded in reality.

Nitpick: artificial does not mean that it was created from nothing, i.e. using a miniature big bang. Something modified, artificially-contained, manufactured from other parts, take your pick.

[thekillman]

Theoretically zero point energy is infinite because it is a minimum energy below which a thermodynamic system can never go.

the fact that it's a minimum energy ensures you can never have a net gain in energy.

however, a ZPM seems to work differently: it drains energy from a self-contained artificial region of subspace. which makes it finite. also Exotons (my fancy name for exotic particles) ensure the energy is finite: the exotons tear up space, and when too many have formed the microverse collapses.

also, wheter it's artificially made or contained, i don't know. but we either need a real ZPM machine to capture micro subspace regions or we need to add the energy to create such a region. either way, it's impossible to create a ZPM using the ACC with a net energy gain.

[Mike.]

the fact that it's a minimum energy ensures you can never have a net gain in energy.

The Ancients figured out a way to harness it so we have to accept it in accordance with show canon.

however, a ZPM seems to work differently: it drains energy from a self-contained artificial region of subspace.

A contained subspace bubble is still a thermodynamic system. So is the universe, just bigger.

which makes it finite.

Nope. Any system can not go below a certain level, no matter how much energy is extracted.

also Exotons (my fancy name for exotic particles) ensure the energy is finite: the exotons tear up space, and when too many have formed the microverse collapses.

Is this info from Trinity ? I was under the impression that when they extracted zero point energy, exotic particles appeared inside the containment field, started interacting with each other and creating too much energy for the system to handle.

Found a quote:

WEIR: We have reason to believe that the weapon's power source, it may not be controllable at any power level.
[...]
McKAY: What are you on about?!

ZELENKA: As power output increases, new and exotic particles are continuously created and destroyed inside the containment chamber, interacting with each other and with the field itself. Eventually particles are created that cannot be prevented in this space-time, and they breach the containment field as hard radiation.

McKAY: As long as I'm monitoring the energy output manually, I can stop that before it happens.

ZELENKA: You cannot predict something that is inherently unpredictable.

So it wasn't an issue of the microverse collapsing, but the facility reaching its limits due to unpredictable and enormous energy generation - with resulted in an explosion of tremendous power.

also, wheter it's artificially made or contained, i don't know. but we either need a real ZPM machine to capture micro subspace regions or we need to add the energy to create such a region. either way, it's impossible to create a ZPM using the ACC with a net energy gain.

Ok, so the Asgard device would only be able to make the ZPM's mechanism, but not capture and manipulate the subspace bubble. Makes sense.

Next question: why can't we use the Asgard device to manufacture a proper ZPM maker ?

[Quadhelix]

Is this info from Trinity ? I was under the impression that when they extracted zero point energy, exotic particles appeared inside the containment field, started interacting with each other and creating too much energy for the system to handle.

It seems that the problem wasn't that there was too much energy to handle, but rather that the containment field had no way to contain the particles, and thus they escaped containment as deadly radiation.

So it wasn't an issue of the microverse collapsing, but the facility reaching its limits due to unpredictable and enormous energy generation - with resulted in an explosion of tremendous power.

Except, of course, that Arcturus was drawing vacuum energy directly from real space, not a micro-verse.

Next question: why can't we use the Asgard device to manufacture a proper ZPM maker ?

Probably because we don't know how they work.

[Mike.]

It seems that the problem wasn't that there was too much energy to handle, but rather that the containment field had no way to contain the particles, and thus they escaped containment as deadly radiation.

Nope. It was overloading, see the quotes:

ZELENKA (angrily): Fine! Kill yourself, just like the Ancients did!

SHEPPARD: Whoa, whoa, whoa, what do you mean by that?

ZELENKA: I believe if the overload is allowed to continue, the weapon acts as a sort of release valve to prevent catastrophic containment failure. The Ancients barely managed to shut it down, and they lost their lives in the process.

WEIR: What we're suggesting is that the Wraith didn't kill everyone on that planet -- it was the weapon itself.

SHEPPARD: That would explain why this place is the only thing left standing.

McKAY: Bringing the weapon online ... now.

(There's a whooshing sound as the energy comes online. An energy field forms around the device in the chamber. After a few seconds, there's another whoosh.)

SHEPPARD: What's that?

McKAY: Energy surge -- it's fine. I can regulate it.

(On his screen, the energy levels rise.)

SHEPPARD: You said you could contain it.

McKAY: The temperature inside the containment field is well within acceptable parameters. Staying ahead of it. (The levels continue to rise.) Levels are rising in the chamber. Reroute power from the secondary systems to the containment field.

SHEPPARD (as he works): I'm thinking we need to abort.

McKAY: I can compensate. Just give me a minute.

(The "Overload" message starts to flash on the computer screen.)

SHEPPARD: It's overloading, just like last time.

McKAY: There is no logical reason this shouldn't be working.

SHEPPARD: McKay?

McKAY (starting to sound panic-stricken): None of this should be happening! Look, the energy levels are spiking at a rate far greater than anything I predicted.

SHEPPARD: Shut it down!

(Rodney turns and glares at him for a moment, then turns back to his computer.)

McKAY: Fine. (He presses a key, which beeps at him. The energy levels continue to rise. He presses the key again and gets another beep.) That doesn't make any sense.

SHEPPARD: What's wrong?

(Rodney turns and stares at him.)

McKAY: I can't shut it down.

ANCIENT OUTPOST. The weapon on the roof of the lab is spinning around and firing randomly into the sky. Inside the lab, the room shakes.

SHEPPARD: What was that?

McKAY: The weapon's discharging to prevent a catastrophic overload.

(One of the console explodes.)

SHEPPARD: Alright, that's it. We're outta here.

McKAY: What did I just say?! The weapon's firing at random targets above the planet. This is the safest place to be right now.

SHEPPARD: The place isn't gonna be safe for very much longer!

McKAY: I can bring it back under control! Just give me a second!

McKAY: OK, we need to leave. I've waited too long -- the weapon can't discharge enough power to avoid a catastrophic overload. This whole planet's gonna go up. (He shuts his laptop and hurries to the ladder, then turns to John.) Not that your speech wasn't working. (He starts to climb.)


As the weapon continues to fire wildly into the sky, John and Rodney run into the Puddle Jumper.

SHEPPARD: OK, strap in.

Probably because we don't know how they work.

We wouldn't need to. The IOA used the Asgard core in Ark Of Truth to make a replicator without having the schematics - the info was in the Asgard database. So the answer is: because the Asgard didn't know how they work.

[thekillman]

look Mckay and Ms. Miller states that if the exotons get to subspace the universe instantly ends. it's a system that will always fail and the only thing you can predict about it is that it WILL fail. that's why ZPM's deplete.

also, if a system can not go lower than a certain energy, you can't extract energy from it. the ancients draw energy from subspace, and since that's filled with energy, i can see where it's coming from.

[Mike.]

look Mckay and Ms. Miller states that if the exotons get to subspace the universe instantly ends. it's a system that will always fail and the only thing you can predict about it is that it WILL fail. that's why ZPM's deplete.

I guess this would work as fine as any other theory and fits with the show.

(side note: in Trinity they didn't get to the point of damaging the fabric of space, Arcturus overloaded well before that).

also, if a system can not go lower than a certain energy, you can't extract energy from it. the ancients draw energy from subspace, and since that's filled with energy, i can see where it's coming from.

The ZPM was explicitly stated in the show to use zero point energy, it's even in the name. Obviously the Ancients figured out how to do it i.e. it's still extracting "minimum energy" (canon) even if it is in conjunction with subspace.

[Quadhelix]

The ZPM was explicitly stated in the show to use zero point energy, it's even in the name. Obviously the Ancients figured out how to do it i.e. it's still extracting "minimum energy" (canon) even if it is in conjunction with subspace.

Moreover, they can use Arcturus to extract that minimum energy from real space, not subspace. This would imply that they have someway of changing the minimum energy of systems.

[DrNicholasRush]

The ZPM was explicitly stated in the show to use zero point energy, it's even in the name. Obviously the Ancients figured out how to do it i.e. it's still extracting "minimum energy" (canon) even if it is in conjunction with subspace.

While zero point energy may be infinite, even in a pocket of artificial subspace, is it possible that the ZPMs limitations lie in the module itself? Obviously ZPMs release massive amounts of energy; is it possible that the "wear-and-tear" could simply pile up over the years. While I am certainly ready for intense scrutiny, now that I think about it, it would explain why the lifespan of a ZPM is directly linked to how much energy is extracted.