Protect Arcturus and Phase shifting technology

[Zalenka]

I
I think I'm right in saying that the reason that project Arcturus didn't work was that, in trying to extract zero point energy from our own space time, it created exotic particles that cannot exist here.

I'm not a physicist, but couldn't we get around this by building part of the reactor outside of our space time? The technology already exists and is in Earth hands (the sodan cloak, Arthur's mantle), so why not bring them togrther and see what happens?

We could use the Interdimensional Visibility Device, as seen in Sight Unseen, to check that no alternate dimension beings are being harmed.

[Davidtourniquet]

I think you would still have the exotic particle problem.
The cloak doesn't take you out of our space-time, just takes you "out of phase". Sort of like a wave if it's 180 degrees out of phase with a second wave the interference between the 2 would be 0.

[Zalenka]

When Mitchell was out of phase due to Arthur's mantle he was seen by Teal'c who was using the cloak and Carter does mention in Uninvited that the devices do push you slightly out of normal space time.

If the cloaks won't cut it however a device like Arthur's mantle could be used to store the particles or as the business end of the device that, like the Sangraal, does most of its work outside of our space time so the particles will remain where they should be and we get all the power and non of the problems.

[peragrin]

slight problem if you put the power plant out of phase how do you get the power back out of it?

if you say a phase rectifier I will invent a way to slap you over the internet.

[Zalenka]

Not all of it is out of phase, just the bits that need to be. Parts of a ZPM are in our space time and they transfer the power to us.

The Sangraal and Arthur's mantle are other devices that exist in alternate phases.

[SoulReaver]

I
I think I'm right in saying that the reason that project Arcturus didn't work was that, in trying to extract zero point energy from our own space time, it created exotic particles that cannot exist here.

well that's what Radek said in the show so I guess you're right in paraphrasing him :|

anyway, even if they do phase out only part of the generator (if that's even possible), you're assuming it would be possible to phase-out those particles - but that's the problem see, these particles are exotic so there's absolutely no way to predict or even speculate on how they'll interact with the phase-cloak (which is a "normal" device designed to operate in a "normal" universe according to this universe's "normal laws")

[thekillman]

cant the power be transferred via subspace?

[Dev Corvin]

This thread is just... wrong. The concept, the explainations, everything.

It starts with a complete lack of understanding as to how Merlin's device works, and then follows on with a lack of knowledge as to the way Arcturis provides power.

Firstly, you need to change the way you think of ZPMs and Project Arcturus. A lot of people are under the impression that they're power generators; they're not, they're essentially massive batteries. A ZPM contains a very small artificially created universe (which requires more power to create it than you get out of it in the end, hence the theory about a geothermal energy ZPM production plant), and provides a mechanism for drawing energy from this universe.

Now, imagine a 2 litre pepsi bottle filled with water, and a tube over the neck of the bottle. If you connect that tube to a pump, and pump the water out of the bottle without allowing any air to return back into it, the bottle shrinks around the water thus maintaining the pressure/volume constant. Eventually, you end up with a completely empty bottle - empty of water and of air, all crumpled up; assuming it doesn't break along the way. This is what the term "maximum entropy" refers to when talking about ZPM capacity. Essentially, you're pumping energy out of the mini-universe, causing it to shrink and fracture around it until the universe is void of viable energy.

Project Arcturus attempted to draw power from our OWN universe, therefore meaning that the amount of power you could pull from it would be equal to the size of the universe itself; thus TRILLIONS of times more powerful than a ZPM. The problem is, when you activate the system, it draws power at a faster rate than is "given up" by the universe (that's the whole point of a ZPM/Arcturus, it FORCES the water out of the bottle rather than letting it pour out at a safe rate), and the side effect is the universal equivelant of the bottle cracking and folding around the water; the creation of 'exotic' particles (particles which don't follow the laws of physics) in order to facilitate this accelerated energy transfer. In a ZPM, this isn't a problem since you're not trying to LIVE in the universe the ZPM contains, but in our own universe this is a MAJOR problem.

The reason Arthur's Mantle has no effect on this is that when you use Arthur's Mantle, you still exist in this universe; just in a different spatial dimension. The exotic particles would still be created in - you got it - THIS universe, and therefore they would still lead to its destablization and eventual destruction.

I tell you what MIGHT work though; implementing the technology behind the Quantum Mirror in the containment field. A similar principle to what they attempted to do in McKay and Mrs Miller, but based on much more proven technology.

[umopapisdn]

Top man^^

[Zalenka]

Can someone tell me if the exotic particles exist already or if they are simple normal particles of subspace that behave exotically when brought into our space time.

Arthur's mantle and the sangraal are both pieces of technology that exist in our universe but reside on different phases. In the mantle's alternate phase it is possible to walk and breath but you can walk through people. Why not simply put the exotic particles on one of these plains?

Alternatively, maybe the particles will not behave exotically as they are been brought out of subspace and maybe if we find a way of interacting with them on their own plain they'll be nice.

The Stargate universe has shown multiple devices that access different plains of existence where you exist in our universe, but not quite in our region of subspace time:
Hyperdrive engines,
The sangraal,
The Sodan cloak,
The tollan phasing cloak,
Arthurs Mantle
The crystal skull.

Perhaps, we could find a way of interacting with these levels and see if there is a way of extracting zero point energy without creating any harmful particles?

[Dev Corvin]

Can someone tell me if the exotic particles exist already or if they are simple normal particles of subspace that behave exotically when brought into our space time.

Arthur's mantle and the sangraal are both pieces of technology that exist in our universe but reside on different phases. In the mantle's alternate phase it is possible to walk and breath but you can walk through people. Why not simply put the exotic particles on one of these plains?

Alternatively, maybe the particles will not behave exotically as they are been brought out of subspace and maybe if we find a way of interacting with them on their own plain they'll be nice.

The Stargate universe has shown multiple devices that access different plains of existence where you exist in our universe, but not quite in our region of subspace time:
Hyperdrive engines,
The sangraal,
The Sodan cloak,
The tollan phasing cloak,
Arthurs Mantle
The crystal skull.

Perhaps, we could find a way of interacting with these levels and see if there is a way of extracting zero point energy without creating any harmful particles?

You're confusing the terms spacetime, dimensions, and universe.

Firstly, spacetime is a complete misnomer. There are 10/11 possible dimensions according to string theory and m-theory; only some of these are spatial dimensions, and others are properties associated with the previous spatial dimensions. For example, the first three dimensions are spatial, the fourth is the linear progression of time, which is a property of the first three, and the fifth is the first fundamental of probability which accounts for all possible eventualities and configurations of matter in the first 3. This can be described as having the first 3 dimensions be physical, and the next 2 as virtual dimensions which define the nature of the first 3 physical dimensions.

You seem to be under the impression that the exotic particles cause problems when in the first 3 (well 4, because you said spacetime), therefore you seem to think that being in subspace (the gaps between spatial dimensions, or representational dimension-0 inderterminate point form linked to 4 and 5), or being present in higher spatial dimensions (6, 7, or 9 ie higher planes) would negate the effects of exotic particles.

No.

Exotic particles cause a problem because they DON'T follow the boundaries established by dimensional walls/spatial permeance. They exert forces and effects on the multi-dimensional environment they are present in which cause the disruption of these boundaries, essentially causing them to destabilise with catastrophic effects for the conventional contents of the environment.

The phrase "they don't follow the laws of physics", as stated in the show, is TV-speak for the above paragraph.

Therefore, the dimension they're created in has no bearing on whether or not they cause destructive effects; simply being present in our own universe is what causes the issue. Therefore NO amount of cloaking or phasing or subspace containment would be able to stop the particles from being created or causing problems.

[ablevins425]

Why don't the Ancients just use some of there infinate ascended knowledge and fix the project? It would be much easier than going through all this technical knowledge.

[thekillman]

impossible. and its not knowledge, but understanding, as daniel puts it so nicely. thats the asgard computer core. knowledge. it will take several hundred years to understand it. mckay going ascension. he made a whole new math. yet back to normal, it was way beyond his understanding.

the project cant be fixed. unless you find a way to rig it so it sends the particles to a zpm universe. if we had a quantum mirror, we could just search for a destroyed universe and make it suck the energy out of it. time jumper, anyone?