Are pre-implant Goa'uld symbiote innocent?(S7 & S8 spoiler)

[ckwongau]

S8 Reckoning & Threads Spoiler
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Highlight the spoiler
Now most of the Jaffa are free and most system lord are either dead or lost the Jaffa support.
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What is going to happen to the symbiote carry by the Jaffa when they mature?

Well,since the shortage of symbiote is going to get worse, and the Tritonin 's main ingredient is Symbiote . It is likey they will be kill to make Tritonin.

But is it murder?A Goa'uld Symbiote is a sentience being with intelligence and feeling. they havn't committ any crime yet, they carry the evil memories of crime of their parent (Queen or her mate ).They will probaby be Evil when they get a host , but are we judging them before they committ the crime?

A young Symbiote with the Evil memories, and their evil nature , they can still change their way of lifes for good .
The Tok'ra queen was born a Goa'uld ,but she change her way and founded the Tok'ra movment and she spawned many Tok'ra Symbiote with good memories .And a few of Goa'uld even defected to their side in the early days.

S7 "Fallout "spoiler
That Goa'uld spy who use Kiana's body in Jonas's homeworld, she wasn't like other Goa'uld ,She seems to come to respect humans and their determination & ingenuity, and able to have real feeling for Jonas, and she sacrifice herself to save Jonas's homeworld when she could have gave up and let everybody die with her, but she fullfill her mission and save everybody ,and as her final she sacrifice herself to healed Kiana.She said she wanted to have her own empire ,that was probably true ,but she save everyone knowing she will die at the end .

So some Goa'uld could be capable of good despite their evil genetic memories.

They are not like the Tok'ra,they don't share bodies at least in their first host
It is now possible to give them a body without sacrifice any human life.
The Kull worries 's body are created in Labs, they don't look very good ,and they got short life span.But a Goa'uld can now have a host without taking a human life.
The Goa'uld still carry a lot of dangerous information, thing could get them power ,like he could sell it to Alien organizations similar to Earth 's NID or Trust other .Their have the knowledge to create weapon of mass desturction

Threads' spoiler
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Who know what the Free Jaffa find in Anubis's base ,that was the base he use to manufacture Kull worrior
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Are they innocent, and should we find a way to spare their life, allow them to make their own choice ,become good or evil .Find a way to co-exist.

[PhilM]

Kill em all. Hell, they are only rubber anyway. Oh wait, I guess they aren't even rubber, they are CGI. In that case, the delete key will work.

This is a thought provoking subject if you think of it beyond the "it's only a tv show" context. Do we reform our enemy or wipe them out? I suppose if the Tok'ra could be nice, others could follow, but wouldn't you always run the risk of having that one or two who want to be bad? Not to mention the host thing. Would you be able to find enough people to take a snake into their head...

[ckwongau]

Would you be able to find enough people to take a snake into their head...

As i said the Kull worrior's body was manufacture in a lab, then Anubis put aa almost blank Smybiote into it to make it stronger.

So We could gave them a Kull worrior body ,without risking any human life

[VBach37]

If you want to pump out symbiotes for the tritonin, but what to retain the moral high-ground, here's what you do: Get the queen to make brain-dead symbiotes, like in "Cure."

[ckwongau]

If you want to pump out symbiotes for the tritonin, but what to retain the moral high-ground, here's what you do: Get the queen to make brain-dead symbiotes, like in "Cure."

I am sure that 's what Teal is trying to do, find a few Queen and make "Braind-dead " symbiote.
But the purpose of this thread is about "Are pre-implant Goa'uld symbiote innocent?"

Do we have to right to just kill them before they committ any crime, and what is Evil to us, may be survival to them.
The infant symbiote probaby know they had little chance of getting a host, becuase the genetic memories tell them the System Lord eat them to prvent competition .
And they probaby become evil if they have a chance of getting a host, but they could be good, we saw the Tok'ra and that Goa'uld in "S7 Fallout" , they can make choice ,and they have free will.
But are we going to risk it, We can give them a Kull Worrior body, but can we keep an eye on them all the time

[Steam]

Its the same question as saying if you could go back intime and kill hitler when he was say 10? would you do it? but seeing as they are EVIL and they will take a host eventualy its better they die

[puddlejumper747]

Its the same question as saying if you could go back intime and kill hitler when he was say 10? would you do it?

No, I would absolutely not. But that's a completely seperate discussion, and I really don't want to pull this thread that far off-topic.

If you want to pump out symbiotes for the tritonin, but what to retain the moral high-ground, here's what you do: Get the queen to make brain-dead symbiotes, like in "Cure."

There you go. Or perhaps we could figure out how to chemically re-create whatever element it is that the symbiote provides to the Jaffa?

But are we going to risk it, we could gave them a Kull warrior body, without risking any human life, but keep an eye on them all the time.

Sounds good. So long as you don't decide to leave any functional weapons still attatched to their suit armor....

[Cpn. Chris(tine) Bowman]

But then there's the problem of the manufactured bodies...You're sentencing them to life as host without asking if they want it.

I know, you're all going to say that they would be "Brain-dead" clones or something like that but, they have to at least be given the chance to develop themselves. They're still people, like severely retarded people are people nonetheless. It's not because they are very lacking in intellect maybe even to the point of being dependant on others for everything that we could just, say, give them away as gifts to someone else...

[ckwongau]

But then there's the problem of the manufactured bodies...You're sentencing them to life as host without asking if they want it....

If the Symbiote doesn't want a host ,he can always leave the body and jumb into a fish bowl and lives like a fish , the host will be given to the next smybiote

They're still people, like severely retarded people are people nonetheless. It's not because they are very lacking in intellect maybe even to the point of being dependant on others for everything that we could just, say, give them away as gifts to someone else....

Well , i am not sure what they are, ,are they people, When Daniel thought that Alien dress up as a Kull Worrior was comming on to him, that was funny.
Remmeber that Asgard gerw in the Lab in "Convenant" , that Billionaire taught him to sit down and walk along, the Asgerd just beam him out of the lab and Thor said the body will be inmplant with an Asgerd mind.

[ckwongau]

Its the same question as saying if you could go back intime and kill hitler when he was say 10? would you do it? but seeing as they are EVIL and they will take a host eventualy its better they die

Well, Hilter is only one person, we are talking about an entire species, the Tok'ra doesn't have a Queen, they will extinct, if the Free Jaffa kill off the symbiote when they mature, then the entire species will be wipe out.

And we know some Goa'uld can be good like that Goa'uld spy who use Kiana's body but save that world and the host.

[yettobeseen]

Yes, this is a moral dilemma. We saw that the goa'uld can rebel like the tok'ra did, but that was a long time ago, and the goa'uld became more evil since then, because of their genetic memory, and none rebeled recently (Crossroads).

Because of this genetic memory and the fact that the queen clones herself to produce offspring (The Cure), the offspring are exactly the same as the queen. Basically, her conscienous is copied assuming that a personality is the result of the experiences and memories of those experiences of a person (for example, Absolute Power).

So should the offspring escape punishment because they inhabit a different body? If a goa'uld commits crimes then changes hosts, does that mean the symbiote becomes a different being? Most would say no. When the asgard transfers a consciousness from one body to another, will it still be the same person? Most would say yes, despite a new physical body. So when a queen makes copies of herself with the same memories, morality, personality, and genetics, are the offspirng independent entities, or should they all be punished for the past crimes of the lineage? If a computer virus disrupts one computer, should we wait to see if a copy of that virus on another computer has the same effect before deleting it? Doesn't it deserve that moment to prove itself? A copy of a computer virus is not malicious until it does something bad, right?

Its only when a symbiote takes a host, and absorbs the host's memories and experiences new things that it diverges into a different being. So all the symbiotes in the Jaffa aren't innocent just because their physical bodies were not used to commit the past crimes of the goa'uld. (The same could be said of the replicators.)

But this does not mean all goa'uld should be exterminated just because they are goa'uld, as noted by Lyla in Pretense. It's their memories that creates their inherent evil, not their physical bodies. The symbiotes as a species deserves to live on, and they will as tok'ra and as native symbiotes living in the pools in The First Ones.

Does their desire for power and domination deserve the right to persist also? There are no established ethics for the preservation of memories or personalities since genetic memory doesn't really exist. Experiences are simply recorded in books and past down culturally. Even if someone thinks that the goa'uld's desire for domination should be allowed to persist not only in recorded history but also biologically in symbiotes, that is already being done by the tok'ra. The tok'ra have that knowledge, but do not act upon it. So a desire to preserve the genetic memories that make goa'uld the way they are is not enough to spare all the symbiotes in the Jaffa.

But yet it is still unsettling to systematically and callously exterminate them all. They could be allowed to live, but they do not deserve to be given a host, because that compromises the hosts right to live. The symbiotes could be placed in pools on their native world to live and reproduce the way some still do. They have a right to conduct themselves however they see fit, but everyone else in the galaxy have a right to protect themselves from the evil oppression of the goa'uld.

A queen could be forced to prevent the transmission of genetic memory to her offspring, but that would not be ethical either. If a queen agreed to it, she could be used to create more tok'ra, but I don't see why a goa'uld queen would do that. If not the tok'ra could be cloned like the goa'uld was in Nightwalkers. The clone would then diverge into a new being after taking a host. And the Jaffa could be used to incubate immature tok'ra clones.

This thread also touches on the value of genetic memory. Clearly much more could be learned and accumulated with genetic memory. But the drawback is that it does not allow personalities to develop independently. It becomes more of a limitation than a benefit over time as more memories are accumulated. So we should all be glad that we have to spend hours of studying to know all that we do, because the alternative could be far worse.

[Goa'uldilocks]

But then there's the problem of the manufactured bodies...You're sentencing them to life as host without asking if they want it.

Hey, there are lots of people who'd volunteer to be hosts to full Goa'uld. I'd do it in a second!

I think this whole good/evil discussion is simplistic. Better would be "Adaptive" vs "non-adaptive." Kiana's symbiote had the chance to get to know humans as equals, an opportunity almost no Goa'uld ever get. At implantation they have all the worst qualities of human adolescents-- all kinds of knowledge and no experience! What their world looks like, IMO, determines how they need to adapt in order to thrive. Even some of the older System Lords started to change, at least to some degree, the way they looked at humans after some time went by. Apophis in "Serpent's Song" seemed to regard O'Neill as a real enemy rather than simply an upstart from a slave race, and Ba'al's "I'm a god, gods are all-knowing" in Reckoning II seemed to have at least an element of teasing to it-- it just didn't hit me as the bald-faced conviction that he might have shown earlier on.