There Is A Tide ... (312)

[GateWorld]

STAR TREK: DISCOVERY - SEASON THREE
THERE IS A TIDE ...
EPISODE NUMBER - 312

Michael and Book must attempt to retake Discovery from the Emerald Chain after Osyraa seizes the ship and takes it to Federation Headquarters.

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[Kilgharrah]

So directed by Jonathan frakes. He never ceases to amaze.
I like that grey scientist character that is played by Kenneth Mitchell. It's nice that he found his way back to DIS after playing Tenavik and Kol. Come to think of it, we could see Tenavik again. Time is not linear for him. And also that scientist with that chair gave me Captain pike vibes.

Is it stupid that I actually believe osyarra?

Aaand they ruined replcators for me.

The admiral's words to osyrra before rejecting the join... Wow. That's what the federation is all about.

Are the sphere data going to be the writers' escape when they don't find a way out?

Stamets words to Michael before she ejected him. They really hurt.

Did Vance really believe that Discovery could lead the chain to the federation? They'd die before doing that.

[lopo30]

Why you need to take hostages to have a word with federation, while your already one of the super powers in the new galaxy ? Why not just go to them and set up meeting ? I just dont understand this stupidity.

Then that Burnham nerve pinch. Why didnt she use it before and needed to get stabbed with knife ?
Never mind that humans dont have the strength to pull it off as it was explained in one of the Star Trek series where someone tried to do it. Only one who was able to do it was Data.

The replicators part i dont much care for as so what if it uses there sh**. We even now recycle waste water so why would it be disturbing for the green women ? Replicator just takes the particles and creates the new thing so why is it so bad and especially with this technology ? TBH i cant even understand why would replicated food taste any different ? They had it in 24th century already so did this technology was already so well done that didnt need any improvement for the 32th century ? For me all of that is total face palm.

In this new Trek most of it just dont make any sense or is in any way logical.

Never mind that when you get stabbed in the leg like that 10cm blade in. First of the pain be insane and you would not pull it out for your self. Touching the knife already would make you dose out. Never mind on standing up and moving. It's not just a scratch. I have had injury like that but with glass in my leg. I was disabled for a long time cause of that.

These DOT23 robots reminded me Star Wars Episode 4 with the message stuck in the R2T2 for Obi One Kenobi from princess that Skywalker discovers. Not cause of the shape of the robots but cause they pop out and then show some hologram of what i didnt understand what they showed in it.

And then the scientist. I just dont understand these people to be so naïve. It wasnt probably he's first rodeo with that green chick. And he was using the mind control to get information and control the spore jump against the will of Stamets. So few words without the mind control crown and he's enlightened. It just so insanely bad writing in this show by people who have no logic or any sort of fantasy. Feels like these people are just over payed like rest of the project so all goes and dont need to have any sort of effort to it

[P-90_177]

So directed by Jonathan frakes. He never ceases to amaze.
I like that grey scientist character that is played by Kenneth Mitchell. It's nice that he found his way back to DIS after playing Tenavik and Kol. Come to think of it, we could see Tenavik again. Time is not linear for him. And also that scientist with that chair gave me Captain pike vibes.

Is it stupid that I actually believe osyarra?

Aaand they ruined replcators for me.

The admiral's words to osyrra before rejecting the join... Wow. That's what the federation is all about.

Are the sphere data going to be the writers' escape when they don't find a way out?

Stamets words to Michael before she ejected him. They really hurt.

Did Vance really believe that Discovery could lead the chain to the federation? They'd die before doing that.

Everyone shined in this episode, but it was great to see Kenneth Mitchell again. He played such a nuanced character with a lot of layers to him. I hope that he may be in more episodes because he had great chemistry with Stamets.

And I don't think it's stupid to believe Osyrra at all because I think she was being completely genuine. She did want a new beginning for the Emerald Chain, and she did recognise the benefits of the Federation and that peace was the way to go and with their combined resources she knew that she didn't need labour camps or to take things by force... But She just couldn't go that final step to take responsibility and step down. A) Because she wants the power and B) She believes everything she did was a necessary evil, even though violence is often her first response.

As far as replicators go that was always how they worked, they just never really told you that.

In all fairness to Vance, he still doesn't know the Discovery crew all that well and at this point all he knows is that Saru left the ship and left Tilly in charge. And without knowing Tilly all that well for all he knows Osyrra turned up and Tilly just bricked it and rolled over.

Why you need to take hostages to have a word with federation, while your already one of the super powers in the new galaxy ? Why not just go to them and set up meeting ? I just dont understand this stupidity.

For a start because they didn't know where Federation Headquarters were. It wasn't really explained so well in the episode because they focussed on the Spore Drive but Fed HQ was a closely guarded secret. Second because as we've seen a few times with Osyrra now, it's kind of how she operates. Big displays of "Look at me! Look at what I can do!" and she wanted to go right to the top where she'd be listened to. Thirdly because Discovery offered her additional insurance. She probably knew that if she approached the Federation without it they'd just say "No. You enslave and kill people. No deal." But by taking the Spore Drive first and Discovery it gave her a much better bargaining position. It's demonstrative of how Osyrra thinks. Big gestures. Approach as strong as possible. Then offer a carrot.

Then that Burnham nerve pinch. Why didnt she use it before and needed to get stabbed with knife ?
Never mind that humans dont have the strength to pull it off as it was explained in one of the Star Trek series where someone tried to do it. Only one who was able to do it was Data.

Not true. It just takes a lot of skill. Picard could do it after his mind meld with Sarek, Archer could do it when he carried the Katra of Surak, Seven of Nine apparently just learned it by herself. Even Odo knew how to do it.
It's also not the first time we've seen Burnham use it as it is how she knocked Georgiou out to attempt her mutiny in The Battle of the Binary Stars.

The replicators part i dont much care for as so what if it uses there sh**. We even now recycle waste water so why would it be disturbing for the green women ? Replicator just takes the particles and creates the new thing so why is it so bad and especially with this technology ? TBH i cant even understand why would replicated food taste any different ? They had it in 24th century already so did this technology was already so well done that didnt need any improvement for the 32th century ? For me all of that is total face palm.

Osyrra is probably just used to living in luxury and thus eating well without a replicator. And there's a lot of thoughts and theories as to why replicated food tastes different. Personally I'm inclined to believe that it's all about programming. So to improve replicators you can make them more energy efficient and able to construct more complicated things but they're still reliant on the programming to produce stuff. It's like upgrading a PC to top of the line spec but a game from twenty years ago will still look like a game from twenty years ago. So if the programming is not tip top then the food it's creating isn't going to taste the same. Now the thing is, we know that among the Fed Ships there was a ship that was a whole flying forest. That tells me that the Federation actually must grow it's own food on top of replicators in these vast arboretum ships (because why the hell wouldn't you?) but they simply cannot grow apples for whatever reason. I mean you have a galaxy of fruits and vegetables to choose from something like an apple will just fall by the wayside. So it makes sense that Vance may have never had a real one. Osyrra, meanwhile is not human yet she knows what apples are. We can presume easily that when Earth used to colonise planets they probably took apples with them everywhere being a favourite fruit and all. But that's centuries of apple trees being bred on other planets, in different compositions of dirt, and possibly even cross polinated with a bunch of other plants. Thus you may get apples, but unless they're from Earth they may well not taste exactly spot on like apples from Earth. So thus you have a two fold part of this issue. You have replicators which produce the same unfailing apple time after time but may or may not be based on just some historical piece of programming about what and apple should be, and you have someone who has possibly never tasted what original Earth apples should be like. The difference could be just as simple as telling the difference between a Pink Lady and a Granny Smith and having a preference about which one you think is better.

In this new Trek most of it just dont make any sense or is in any way logical.

Spoiler alert. Old Trek often wasn't either.

Never mind that when you get stabbed in the leg like that 10cm blade in. First of the pain be insane and you would not pull it out for your self. Touching the knife already would make you dose out. Never mind on standing up and moving. It's not just a scratch. I have had injury like that but with glass in my leg. I was disabled for a long time cause of that.

Oh please. That's just what happens in any action show or movie. I agree it doesn't make it any less silly and if you have had an experience like that it's going to be all the more highlighted to you but you gotta take that as a pet peeve whenever anybody gets stabbed or shot in TV or cinema.

These DOT23 robots reminded me Star Wars Episode 4 with the message stuck in the R2T2 for Obi One Kenobi from princess that Skywalker discovers. Not cause of the shape of the robots but cause they pop out and then show some hologram of what i didnt understand what they showed in it.

I saw that too. It was a nice visual nod. I liked it.
Also the hologram looked like it was a Western so I'm pretty sure it was the Sphere data commenting on how the crew were decked out like they all ready to do some gunslinging. Since it was also a scene where dude got shot and it was right after Tilly gave the order that they will keep going even if someone falls I think the Sphere Data was intervening at that point because it realised none of them would make it.

And then the scientist. I just dont understand these people to be so naïve. It wasnt probably he's first rodeo with that green chick. And he was using the mind control to get information and control the spore jump against the will of Stamets. So few words without the mind control crown and he's enlightened. It just so insanely bad writing in this show by people who have no logic or any sort of fantasy. Feels like these people are just over payed like rest of the project so all goes and dont need to have any sort of effort to it

Why do you even watch the show then? You complain every single week. Watch something else. Watch Old Trek. Watch the Expanse. Watch The Crown. Just find something you enjoy. I mean seriously, I love this show, but I wouldn't watch it if I didn't. Life's too short to watch things you don't like. I used to love and adore Doctor Who but I don't like the current writers so I don't watch it any more and I don't give it a second thought. I mean I don't know if you need to hear this or not Lopo but you don't have to feel obligated to watch something just because it's Sci-Fi or just because you've watched everything else in that show or franchise. It's ok to admit you just aren't enjoying something and to drop it.

I mean the exception to this is if you review TV shows for a living in which case fair dos but otherwise...

[lopo30]

Odo and seven of nine is dumb examples as they both had strength to do it.
Archer is in enterprise and that already was somewhat new trek that wasnt exactly in cannon but was more then discovery.

[Xaeden]

You may be conflating a fan theory with canon. I did some Googling, and the only connection I found between the nerve pinch and strength was from fans. One person expressed confusion at how a human could use it because they were "under the impression that only those with the physical strength of Vulcans could successfully perform the pinch." Others put it forward as their personal theory or tried to pass it off as fact, including one individual who insisted that it was impossible for a non-Vulcan to perform the move because Vulcans use a mixture of their greater physical strength and psychic power. None of these people cited a source to back up their claims, and nobody who replied offered up any sources either.

I did, however, find a list purporting to include all instances of non-Vulcans using the pinch. It mentioned everyone that P-90_177 cited and also explained that Doctor McCoy made an attempt to use the nerve pinch in "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock" while carrying Spock's katra. A review of the transcript provides no explanation for why it did not work:

CIVILIAN AGENT: Federation Security, sir.
(McCoy tries the Vulcan nerve pinch on the agent unsuccessfully)
CIVILIAN AGENT: You're going to get a nice, long rest, Doctor.

The scene ends immediately thereafter, and it's not referenced in the following McCoy scene where he is in a prison, nor did I find any other mention of it when searching through the rest of the dialogue. I did see random people online bring it up and put forward their own theories for why it failed to work that included McCoy only having human level strength, the arthritis he mentioned having three movies later, and the agent only appearing human but actually being from a nerve pinch resistant species.

The only other reference I found to a failed attempt to use the nerve pinch was from The Original Series episode, "The Omega Glory" (Season 2, Episode 25):

KIRK: No point in repeating that it's illogical, Spock. I'm quite aware of it.
(The woman is finally within reach of Spock's neck pinch, and down she goes. The male is astonished, and goes to protect her rather than keep fighting.)
KIRK: Pity you can't teach me that.
SPOCK: I have tried, Captain.

That Spock tried to teach Kirk the technique suggests he thought it possible for a human to learn, which in turn suggests super human strength is not a factor.

It's possible the strength idea is something that came up in a non-canonical source like a book or interview, but nobody I saw discussing the subject said as much, and if that were the case it would likely contradict "The Omega Glory." Alternatively, it could just be a fan theory that has become so commonplace that people are now convincing themselves it is factual.

That has happened with a lot of things in Stargate. For example, many fans earnestly think the Quantum Mirror was created by the Furlings. However, there's nothing in the show to indicate that that is the case. It appears that this misconception started as a theory about how the Furlings disappeared into an alternate reality and used the mirror to do so. People then repeated that last bit as fact and, as that picked up steam, more and more people started convincing themselves that they remembered it being said that it was Furling technology in an episode. It even tripped me up for a bit around 2006.

[mad_gater]

Why you need to take hostages to have a word with federation, while your already one of the super powers in the new galaxy ? Why not just go to them and set up meeting ? I just dont understand this stupidity.

Then that Burnham nerve pinch. Why didnt she use it before and needed to get stabbed with knife ?
Never mind that humans dont have the strength to pull it off as it was explained in one of the Star Trek series where someone tried to do it. Only one who was able to do it was Data.

The replicators part i dont much care for as so what if it uses there sh**. We even now recycle waste water so why would it be disturbing for the green women ? Replicator just takes the particles and creates the new thing so why is it so bad and especially with this technology ? TBH i cant even understand why would replicated food taste any different ? They had it in 24th century already so did this technology was already so well done that didnt need any improvement for the 32th century ? For me all of that is total face palm.

In this new Trek most of it just dont make any sense or is in any way logical.

Never mind that when you get stabbed in the leg like that 10cm blade in. First of the pain be insane and you would not pull it out for your self. Touching the knife already would make you dose out. Never mind on standing up and moving. It's not just a scratch. I have had injury like that but with glass in my leg. I was disabled for a long time cause of that.

These DOT23 robots reminded me Star Wars Episode 4 with the message stuck in the R2T2 for Obi One Kenobi from princess that Skywalker discovers. Not cause of the shape of the robots but cause they pop out and then show some hologram of what i didnt understand what they showed in it.

And then the scientist. I just dont understand these people to be so naïve. It wasnt probably he's first rodeo with that green chick. And he was using the mind control to get information and control the spore jump against the will of Stamets. So few words without the mind control crown and he's enlightened. It just so insanely bad writing in this show by people who have no logic or any sort of fantasy. Feels like these people are just over payed like rest of the project so all goes and dont need to have any sort of effort to it

reminds me of the Monty Python Holy Grail spoof where the King Arthur-type character lops off one of the Black Knight's arms and the Black Knight is like "just a flesh wound"

[VampyreWraith]

You may be conflating a fan theory with canon. I did some Googling, and the only connection I found between the nerve pinch and strength were from fans. One person expressed confusion at how a human could use it because they were "under the impression that only those with the physical strength of Vulcans could successfully perform the pinch." Others put it forward as their personal theory or tried to pass it off as fact, including one individual who insisted that it was impossible for a non-Vulcan to perform the move because Vulcans use a mixture of their greater physical strength and psychic power. None of these people cited a source to back up their claims, and nobody who replied offered up any sources either.

I did, however, find a list purporting to include all instances of non-Vulcans using the pinch. It mentioned everyone that P-90_177 cited and also explained that Doctor McCoy made an attempt to use the nerve pinch in "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock" while carrying Spock's katra. A review of the transcript provides no explanation for why it did not work:

CIVILIAN AGENT: Federation Security, sir.
(McCoy tries the Vulcan nerve pinch on the agent unsuccessfully)
CIVILIAN AGENT: You're going to get a nice, long rest, Doctor.

The scene ends immediately thereafter, and it's not referenced in the following McCoy scene where he is in a prison, nor did I find any other mention of it when searching through the rest of the dialogue. I did see random people online bring it up and put forward their own theories for why it failed to work that included McCoy only having human level strength, the arthritis he mentioned having three movies later, and the agent only appearing human but actually being from a nerve pinch resistant species.

The only other reference I found to a failed attempt to use the nerve pinch was from The Original Series episode, "The Omega Glory" (Season 2, Episode 25):

KIRK: No point in repeating that it's illogical, Spock. I'm quite aware of it.
(The woman is finally within reach of Spock's neck pinch, and down she goes. The male is astonished, and goes to protect her rather than keep fighting.)
KIRK: Pity you can't teach me that.
SPOCK: I have tried, Captain.

That Spock tried to teach Kirk the technique suggests he thought it possible for a human to learn, which in turn suggests super human strength is not a factor.

It's possible the strength idea is something that came up in a non-canonical source like a book or interview, but nobody I saw discussing the subject said as much, and if that were the case it would likely contradict "The Omega Glory." Alternatively, it could just be a fan theory that has become so commonplace that people are now convincing themselves it is factual.

That has happened with a lot of things in Stargate. For example, many fans earnestly think the Quantum Mirror was created by the Furlings. However, there's nothing in the show to indicate that that is the case. It appears that this misconception started as a theory about how the Furlings disappeared into an alternate reality and used the mirror to do so. People then repeated that last bit as fact and, as that picked up steam, more and more people started convincing themselves that they remembered it being said that it was Furling technology in an episode. It even tripped me up for a bit around 2006.

Yeah, I think sometimes people mistake fan theory or headcanon with actual canon, especially when things are left up to interpretation/aren't explicitly stated. And sometimes people will find fault with every little thing when they don't like something new even when there are plenty of examples of the same thing happening in old things that they liked (and it's not just with TV shows).