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    The Sanctuary (308)

    Visit the Episode GuideSTAR TREK: DISCOVERY - SEASON THREE
    THE SANCTUARY
    EPISODE NUMBER - 308
    Discovery places itself in a tense standoff with the Emerald Chain leader, Osira, when they travel to Book's homeworld of Kewjian – where Osira intends to recapture the escaped workers from Hunhau.

    VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >>
    Last edited by GateWorld; 04 December 2020, 09:23 PM.

    #2
    Yeah, 10 minutes in and I'm done with "them".

    regards,
    G.
    Go for Marty...

    Comment


      #3
      This episode felt like the classic ST episodes.
      Ship visits planet, ship saves planets, ship leaves.
      It was a really fun episode.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Gollumpus View Post
        Yeah, 10 minutes in and I'm done with "them".

        regards,
        G.
        Get over it.
        Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by Kilgharrah View Post
          This episode felt like the classic ST episodes.
          Ship visits planet, ship saves planets, ship leaves.
          It was a really fun episode.
          Interesting. I didn't think of it like that because I felt it was kind of lackluster since it didn't feel like it connected to anything. I didn't dislike it, but I just felt a little unsatisfied.

          That being said there was some good character stuff. Especially with Adira and Stamets and Georgiou. It seems to be the biggest strength of this season. But it just felt a lot of the rest didn't really fit too well.
          Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

          Comment


            #6
            When have you ever felt connected to those aliens on TOS

            Comment


              #7
              Is it just me who thinks Adira being the non binary character is a bit half hearted, wouldn't they/them be the pronouns for a joined trill regardless of gender identity, if it was just a regular human character who only had being non binary as a reason to use they/them it would feel a bit more meaningful wouldnt it?

              i'd be interested to find out who actually is still in the federation, 3 out of 5 founder members are out, some human colony worlds must still be in, and I think we saw a cardassian Starfleet officer, Barzan seems to be a current member as well

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Kilgharrah View Post
                When have you ever felt connected to those aliens on TOS
                I didn't but TOS is like my least favourite show so there's perhaps the reason at hand.

                Originally posted by dosed150 View Post
                Is it just me who thinks Adira being the non binary character is a bit half hearted, wouldn't they/them be the pronouns for a joined trill regardless of gender identity, if it was just a regular human character who only had being non binary as a reason to use they/them it would feel a bit more meaningful wouldnt it?

                i'd be interested to find out who actually is still in the federation, 3 out of 5 founder members are out, some human colony worlds must still be in, and I think we saw a cardassian Starfleet officer, Barzan seems to be a current member as well
                They make a point of saying that they were non-binary before they were joined and that only Gray knew that so if anything it highlights it all the more that this was their mindset even before joining.

                As for They/Them being the norm for joined Trill, I would perhaps theorise that this is part of the process of being prepared to be joined. That a host needs to be firmly aware of their own gender identity before being joined. That by all means does not discount Non-binary or trans identities but a host needs to have established that for themselves before joining since, as we find out from Ezri, the process of joining means that sometimes you get thoughts muddled, and she says herself that some days she isn't even sure what gender she was in the morning until she pulled back the bed sheets. For someone who is not fully aware of their own sense of self and their own identity as a person I can imagine this, among other instances would be potentially damaging from a psychological standpoint.
                Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by P-90_177 View Post
                  Get over it.
                  Uhm, any idea what "it" is that I'm supposed to be getting over? I suspect that you are unclear as to my meaning in my earlier post.

                  regards,
                  D.
                  Go for Marty...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    So, a more significant post regarding my concerns with this show.

                    1.) Why does Discovery have so many passengers? To me, it seems that they are there merely for the convenience of the writers. Even Neelix had a function on Voyager

                    * Georgiou should not be on board. Even if she has a story arc coming up, and has played a part in a couple of episodes since they discovered the Star Fleet base, there's been nothing (so far) which has required her to be on board Discovery at the time that the mission is declared. Example: in "Scavengers" Burnham could just as easily approached Georgiou, who was stationed on the base, and invited her along on the unsanctioned mission.

                    Georgiou's primary role on the Discovery seems to be to insult and threaten anyone around her. Are these the duties of a future Star Fleet morale officer? If anything, I would imagine that she would still be getting a going over by David Cronenberg, or, that she would be kept close to his hand so that she could be deployed as needed. Perhaps an argument could be made that her moments of catatonia are where she is getting a download of orders/information, but there hasn't been a anything of significance in that regard and it does seem to be something physical and unrelated.

                    * Adira should not be on board. Is it nice that Stamets has someone to help around the lab? Sure, but we constantly are hearing real concerns from Admiral Vance about not wanting to risk Star Fleet's only spore drive ship into harm's way. Now I sorta' get having Stamets going along with Discovery because he's sorta' kinda' linked to powering up the spore drive. And I get Tilly going along because she's now the acting XO on Discovery.

                    So why is Adira going along? 1.) They do not have an official role in Star Fleet, being a civilian. 2.) They are also bonded with a trill who has a lot of information somewhere inside them, which Star Fleet would likely prefer to keep out of the hands of anyone else. 3.) Spore drive - Stamets and Tilly are needed/have a role on Discovery. The third person associated with the spore drive is Adira, who appears to have a pretty good understanding of how things work. So, if the Admiral has concerns about sending the only spore drive ship (currently) in Star Fleet out into danger, why is he so blase about also risking all of the people who could be considered to be an expert on the spore drive?

                    * Why was Ryn still on board at the start of this episode? There was ample time to shift him to a bed in the Star Fleet Medical (on the base). He is a civilian, so why is Discovery taking off with him still on board and potentially placing him in harms way, observation mission or not?

                    * Booker now seems to be able to come and go as he pleases. At least he was the guy who instigated the mission, so he gets some slack. It will be interesting to see what him 'wanting in" will look like. Will his role be as an information gatherer, an agent-provocateur, or to handle some sort back channel deals? It is a role which will have a very short shelf life as his Star Fleet connections are already pretty well known.

                    regards,
                    G.
                    Last edited by Gollumpus; 05 December 2020, 04:51 PM.
                    Go for Marty...

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Review (pt.2) - a bit more scene specific.

                      1.) Why does Burnham make an appearance in sick bay? She wasn't in the first portion of the Georgiou medical consultation, so why later? When Georgiou blacks out, was Culber's first order, "Call Michael Burnham, STAT!!"? The writers had Culber working well with Georgiou in this episode (ie. not taking any **** from her), so why Burnham? I found Burnham being there to be an unnecessary distraction.

                      2.) The briefing for Saru once again makes me wonder, why doesn't Discovery have more up to date information about the time and place in which they find themselves? I would suggest a current era Star Fleet officer to be appointed as Saru's first officer, or at the very least as an aide-de-camp. The writers could also use this other person as a source of tension for Tilly, and her trying to find her way as an XO.

                      3.) A catch phrase? This is something that is important? Sure, it's done for comedic effect, but to my mind it merely undermines Saru as a character.

                      4.) So, they have all this new information which has been processed from last week, and now it has to be processed some more before it can be acted on... next week. This is starting to feel like the Enterprise B where practically everything isn't going to be installed until Tuesday. We did get to see more of this season's antagonist, so there was that.

                      5.) The request for pronouns usage was handled well. A preference was stated and no offence was taken. It was low key, over and done, much like most of the virtue signaling put forward by the creators of this show. This being said, I found that since I am not really invested in Adira I didn't really care what pronouns they want used. I find the Culber/Stamets relationship has the potential to be more interesting than Adira and Gray. It might be interesting to see what the significance the writers will place on this over future episodes.

                      6.) the burnham story on the planet was sorta' so what? just a filler epi and not particularly interesting - lots of action, little story development

                      7.) I don't recall Stamets ever playing, or even mentioning that he played piano in any previous episode. Anyone got an insight on something I may have missed?

                      8.) Tilly doing the "rank deserves" line was really annoying. It vaguely reminded me of a line from "Man of Steel", where Kal says, "Are you Zod?", and the XO says something like, "General Zod! Our commander."

                      I saw this as a weak moment for Tilly. The writers had perhaps three moments in this episode where Tilly could have knocked someone back a bit for overstepping a boundary, as mentioned, this was the least of them. They could have had her do something where Booker approaches Saru for help, and as he is excited and concerned about the situation he jumps into a discussion which is already happening. Tilly could then have given him a "Hold yer horses, hombre" kind of moment, which would have given her a bit more credibility as someone growing into the role, rather than telling off some random refugee.

                      The third instance was when Saru gives the order to power up the weapons and Lt. Idon'trememberhisnamebecausethatonlybecameathinginseasonthree correctly cited the orders from Admiral Vance about Discovery not engaging in a shooting war. At this point, Tilly could have stepped in and supported Saru, kind of similar to Spock telling Savik that Kirk was aware of the regulations and implying that she should button her lip (XO supporting the captain's orders). Saru could then have stepped in with his explanation of why he was bucking the orders given, and maybe asked if anyone wanted to leave the bridge if they did not want to violate those orders (and of course, everyone would stay). This would have shown Tilly really taking the role of XO much more seriously, as she was willing to push back on a friend who was questioning orders.

                      regards,
                      G.
                      Last edited by Gollumpus; 06 December 2020, 05:16 PM. Reason: spelin
                      Go for Marty...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Gollumpus View Post
                        * Georgiou should not be on board. Even if she has a story arc coming up, and has played a part in a couple of episodes since they discovered the Star Fleet base, there's been nothing (so far) which has required her to be on board Discovery at the time that the mission is declared. Example: in "Scavengers" Burnham could just as easily approached Georgiou, who was stationed on the base, and invited her along on the unsanctioned mission.

                        Georgiou's primary role on the Discovery seems to be to insult and threaten anyone around her. Are these the duties of a future Star Fleet morale officer? If anything, I would imagine that she would still be getting a going over by David Cronenberg, or, that she would be kept close to his hand so that she could be deployed as needed. Perhaps an argument could be made that her moments of catatonia are where she is getting a download of orders/information, but there hasn't been a anything of significance in that regard and it does seem to be something physical and unrelated.
                        Michael is the only thing motivating her to temper her dark impulses, so separating them by ditching Georgiou on the station after she came to the future to be with Michael seems like it would end badly. She's a problem, but she is (it appears for the moment) a manageable problem as long as Michael's around to keep her in check.

                        Adria should not be on board. Is it nice that Stamets has someone to help around the lab? Sure, but we constantly are hearing real concerns from Admiral Vance about not wanting to risk Star Fleet's only spore drive ship into harm's way. Now I sorta' get having Stamets going along with Discovery because he's sorta' kinda' linked to powering up the spore drive. And I get Tilly going along because she's now the acting XO on Discovery.

                        So why is Adria going along? 1.) They do not have an official role in Star Fleet, being a civilian. 2.) They are also bonded with a trill who has a lot of information somewhere inside them, which Star Fleet would likely prefer to keep out of the hands of anyone else. 3.) Spore drive - Stamets and Tilly are needed/have a role on Discovery. The third person associated with the spore drive is Adria, who appears to have a pretty good understanding of how things work. So, if the Admiral has concerns about sending the only spore drive ship (currently) in Star Fleet out into danger, why is he so blase about also risking all of the people who could be considered to be an expert on the spore drive?
                        As you said, Adria is not Starfleet, so whatever the Admiral feels about their knowledge, he can't order them around. If Adria wants to stay on Discovery because they made friends there, and Saru accepts Stamets' argument that it's a good environment for them and they're useful, it seems like that would be the end of it. The Admiral could possibly order Saru to kick them off the ship, but he can't order Adria to stay at the station, and separating them from the people they trust and want to be with seems like a bad way to motivate them to stay on.

                        The Discovery also needs someone they can trust who is knowledgeable in future technology and about the state of the galaxy, which Adria would be to a far greater extent if they develop the ability to readily access all of the symbiote's knowledge.

                        Meanwhile, I don't know that Adria knows all that much about the Spore Drive. Sure, they created an interface, but learning how the old interface worked in order to upgrade it is different than understanding how the drive itself works. I would think they'd need to work under Stamets for quite a bit longer to pick up a comprehensive technical and scientific understanding of the drive.

                        * Why was Ryn still on board at the start of this episode? There was ample time to shift him to a bed in the Star Fleet Medical (on the base). He is a civilian, so why is Discovery taking off with him still on board and potentially placing him in harms way, observation mission or not?
                        They didn't say they kept him around after jumping from the station because he still needed medical treatment. When he first appeared, he was impatient at waiting on an agreed upon meeting with Saru. The episode didn't elaborate on what that meeting was to entail, but since he wasn't a prisoner, and they had no idea that he was wanted, I would guess that Saru was planning to talk to him about whether he wanted to be dropped off or stay on until Book left and leave with him.

                        If that's indeed the case, I don't see why they would make him wait on the station until after what was intended to be a non-combat mission. For one, they didn't know whether Book would be coming back with them or leave at the end of the mission. The latter would complicate matters if Ryn ended up wanting to go with Book. Beyond that, this was as good a time as any to drop him off if he wanted to be dropped off. It's not clear whether the Admiral would authorize the Discovery's departure for a drop off. If not, Ryn would either have to try to get passage on another ship or be stuck waiting around until Discovery was next allowed to leave, and who knows whether the reason for them doing so would be more or less risky.
                        Last edited by Xaeden; 19 December 2023, 10:58 AM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          (Review pt.3)

                          9.) Photon(?) torpedoes being fired at the planetary shield, and some get through and hit real close to B&B, and the most damage that they take is some dirt and small debris landing on them... Was there something I missed here, that the shields were taking the brunt of the explosion, but some slight damage was still getting through to the trees? Or was the shield down in that area, and a quantum torpedo landed really close to B&B and they took even less damage than Luke Skywalker's force projection?

                          10) Georgiou hacks into the medical logs and retrieves her diagnosis, while the ship is under duress, and her first inclination is to try and go help Burnham...

                          11.) Tilly and her "brilliant" idea of putting Detmer and the civilian into harm's way was pretty stupid. Was the villian supposed to be too stupid to see that it was launched from Discovery? And wouldn't it fun if the admiral took them at their word that Detmer was acting without orders and had gone rogue? Brig, no longer on Discovery, drummed out of Star Fleet would probably be what would happen to Detmer. Saru would probably lose his captaincy because he has shown that he can't keep the crew under control. Hey, maybe Tilly gets to be captain sooner than expected!

                          I suppose it is nice that someone on the bridge finally got something to do without Burnham crowding the scene. This being said, it does seem that whenever someone gets a significant portion of screen time they often (usually?) get written out of the show (Airiam, Nham,etc.), and I like Detmer...

                          The space battle was a bit unbelievable. Booker's ship seemed to be a bit too over powered, regardless of Detmer getting hints as to where to point the ship. It makes me think that the upgraded Discovery (as well as the other Star Fleet ships) should be able to kick these guys' collective butts, so why haven't they?This being said, I never before this noticed that Booker's ship looks so much like a stylized Millenium Falcon. I suppose that is is because the battle sequence was very heavily derived from various Star Wars space battles. I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, just noting it.

                          And the show is taking place even further into the future, and there's still no seatbelts?

                          12.) I didn't find the planet "A" plot to be all that interesting, so that was most of the episode gone. A lot of the interactions of the characters reminded of some very bad cosplay.

                          What was the magic beam that Discovery sent down to focus the empathic power of Booker and his brother? Is this new (ie. part of the re-fit), or is it just something that the writers pulled out of their butts?


                          13.) Culber shows up in the spore drive room after a long day of fending off any sort of attack from Georgiou, and he is already calling Adira by their prefered pronouns. So when did he get the memo? I see it as lazy writing if characters suddenly know something which they perhaps shouldn't know, but they do because the writers/director decide that they can save a few moments to apply to something else.

                          It just seems to me that this was another moment where the writers could have emphasised the message they wanted to teach the audience. He could have come in, said something like, "How is she?" and Stamets could have corrected Culber on this point, and then Culber being Culber would take this with good grace and the scene would have proceeded. It would be something that would further strengthen the relationship between Stamets and Adira, that she would see that he does indeed have their back.

                          14.) Booker wants in. And he's going to have to ask Saru? Wouldn't he have to ask Vance, or does Booker become just another hitch-hiker on Discovery, who gets wheeled out of a storage bay when the current episode requires it?

                          regards,
                          G.
                          Last edited by Gollumpus; 06 December 2020, 10:26 AM.
                          Go for Marty...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                            Michael is the only thing motivating her to temper her dark impulses, so separating them by ditching Georgiou on the station after she came to the future to be with Michael seems like it would end badly. She's a problem, but she is (it appears for the moment) a manageable problem as long as Michael's around to keep her in check.
                            So keeping a potentially homicidal maniac on board Discovery, who could potentially destroy the ship, is a better option? If Vance wants to keep Discovery safe (for at least the near future) then not having Georgiou on board seems to be the better option, and having her under tight security (even under lock and key) is an even better option. The best thing would then seem be that Burnham is transferred off Discovery and on to the station, where she can "manage" Georgiou, aside from other duties (in quantum physics, or xeno-biology, or xeno-anthropology or w/e).


                            Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                            As you said, Adria is not Starfleet, so whatever the Admiral feels about their knowledge, he can't order them around. If Adria wants to stay on Discovery because they made friends there, and Saru accepts Stamets' argument that it's a good environment for them and they're useful, it seems like that would be the end of it. The Admiral could possibly order Saru to kick them off the ship, but he can't order Adria to stay at the station, and separating them from the people they trust and want to be with seems like a bad way to motivate them to stay on.
                            Well, Vance does have a say on who is on board Discovery, and while Saru may state his preferences, Star Fleet Command has the final say (remember when Discovery first got to the station and Vance was planning on moving people around?). And where's Adira going to go if Vance orders them off of Discovery? Adira could go to Earth, but I got the sense that going back there wouldn't be a preferred option, nor would going to the trill homeworld be an optimal choice. Staying with Star Fleet in some capacity seems to be their best option.

                            What Vance could do is insist upon Adira entering Star Fleet Academy (or the current equivalent) and becoming a cadet. They could get training on the job, as did Crusher. And while everyone and their dog might vouch for Adira's abilities, there's still a chance that Adira may benefit from learning accepted procedures, and then being able to adapt from those as the situation requires. Who knows, they may even find a useful adaptation which Star Fleet could use.


                            Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                            The Discovery also needs someone they can trust who is knowledgeable in future technology and about the state of the galaxy, which Adria would be to a far greater extent if they develop the ability to readily access all of the symbiote's knowledge.
                            Using the symbiote as a convenient source of knowledge looks like it's going to be another Troi and her empathy kind of thing. In one episode the Enterprise is orbiting a planet and Troi can tell what someone down on the surface is feeling. and in another episode she can't pin down the emotions of someone in the next room. Having a Star Fleet advisor (or three) on board would make for a far more reliable source of knowledge than:

                            Saru "Hey Adira, can your symbiote buddy tell us anything about what we're facing?"

                            Adira: "... Nope."

                            I've been suggesting that there should have been additional crew members brought on board Discovery, who are familiar with the future tech, and/or may act as a "native guide". Why would these Star Fleet personnel not be trustworthy? I'm assuming here that you meant "familiar", however, Adira hasn't been with Discovery for all that long (maybe a month or so?) and other than Stamets, who have they really interacted with (maybe Culber)? And while Adira may have a knack with tech, what does Adira really know about the galaxy beyond the Sol system, unless the symbiote suddenly wakes up when convenient and supplies some deep insight.

                            It also seems like the Discovery crew should still be training on the new tech. Yes, they have been given these nice, new interfaces which allows them to use Discovery's tech, but what about if they go on board a ship which doesn't have these gimmicks? Having a greater familiarity with this new tech could be useful.

                            Joachim: Our shields are dropping.

                            Khan: Then raise them!

                            Joachim: [pounds fists on console] I can't!

                            Khan: The override. Where's the override? (and they all look bemused while the Reliant blows up around them)


                            Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                            Meanwhile, I don't know that Adria knows all that much about the Spore Drive. Sure, they created an interface, but learning how the old interface worked in order to upgrade it is different than understanding how the drive itself works. I would think they'd need to work under Stamets for quite a bit longer to pick up a comprehensive technical and scientific understanding of the drive.
                            Well, of everyone in Star Fleet, who knows the most about the spore drive? Stamets, Tilly, Adira... and Burnham, because she's Burnham. I don't recall having seen anything about Reno being all that interested in the spore drive. Anyone else?

                            There is a good point here, that Adira, being a quick study, does fit being mentored by Stamets. This being said, as Discovery doesn't seem to be going out on missions all that often, Stamets and Adira could be taken off of regular duty on Discovery and tasked with assisting in the building of additional spore drives, and in the training of personnel in how to use these things. When Discovery is being sent off on a mission, Stamets could be returned to the ship while Adira remains on the station using what knowledge they have gained to continue the work.


                            Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                            They didn't say they kept him around after jumping from the station because he still needed medical treatment. When he first appeared, he was impatient at waiting on an agreed upon meeting with Saru. The episode didn't elaborate on what that meeting was to entail, but since he wasn't a prisoner, and they had no idea that he was wanted, I would guess that Saru was planning to talk to him about whether he wanted to be dropped off or stay on until Book left and leave with him.
                            My assumption is that Ryn would still have required some medical assistance after the events of "Scavengers" (the spore drive gets Discovery back the same day). In any event, he could have/should have been off-loaded as soon as Discovery got back, rather than lying about in Discovery's sick bay or otherwise have been given lodgings on board ship (for weeks?). If he wanted to talk to Saru, he would have then made his request from the station, and would not have been cooling his heels in the hallway outside of the Saru's office a week or so later. If Saru wanted to do the interview on Discovery, then he would have brought Ryn back on board.

                            Ryn could also have been de-briefed by Star Fleet during the events of "Unification 3", so there was no need for Saru to have to perform this function. If Ryn was insistent on Saru being around (why?) then he could throw a hissy fit until Saru was in the room. The big reveal that the Chain are running out of dilithium doesn't seem to be that big of a deal, and could have been revealed to any appropriate individual in Star Fleet.


                            Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                            If that's indeed the case, I don't see why they would make him wait on the station until after what was intended to be a non-combat mission. For one, they didn't know whether Book would be coming back with them or leave at the end of the mission. The latter would complicate matters if Ryn ended up wanting to go with Book. Beyond that, this was as good a time as any to drop him off if he wanted to be dropped off. It's not clear whether to Admiral would authorize the Discovery's departure for a drop off. If not,, Ryn would either have to try to get passage on another ship or be stuck waiting around until Discovery was next allowed to leave, and who knows whether the reason for them doing so would be more or less risky.
                            I don't see why Star Fleet would delay the departure of Discovery, non-combat mission or not, just for the convenience of Ryn. If he had other things to do and wanted to leave then sure, show him the door and wish him well. This being said, Ryn likely didn't have a lot of resources to draw upon since he was previously being kept as a slave, so how would he be able to pay for passage? And Booker was around (during "Unification 3"), so didn't he go see his Andorian buddy while he was in sick bay?

                            Assuming Star Fleet was done with Ryn, he could just as easily be placed on any ship (on Star Fleet's dime) which was going somewhere and Ryn could make his way from there. If Book wanted to find Ryn after that then he knows where to start looking (as noted above, there was ample time for them to talk). If Star Fleet was feeling grateful for some assistance from Ryn (and he hadn't really done that much for Star Fleet at this point) then sure, they could keep him around for a few extra days (assuming Booker wasn't back right away).

                            regards,
                            G.
                            Go for Marty...

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Gollumpus View Post
                              So keeping a potentially homicidal maniac on board Discovery, who could potentially destroy the ship, is a better option? If Vance wants to keep Discovery safe (for at least the near future) then not having Georgiou on board seems to be the better option, and having her under tight security (even under lock and key) is an even better option. The best thing would then seem be that Burnham is transferred off Discovery and on to the station, where she can "manage" Georgiou, aside from other duties (in quantum physics, or xeno-biology, or xeno-anthropology or w/e).
                              If you’re worried about keeping a “potentially homicidal maniac onboard Discovery,” you should be worried about keeping an aggrieved homicidal maniac at Federation Headquarters. The Discovery may be very important, but so is the station. Discovery brought Georgiou with them to the future, so she’s their responsibility. Dumping her on someone else goes against their principles and presents a greater risk since, as stated, it has thus far been shown that they can keep her in check on Discovery.

                              Even if Burnham spends time with Georgiou on the station, at some point she’s going to have to go off on missions, there’s little guarantee that Georgiou would be satisfied sitting around (she craves action, which she can get on the Discovery), and if you’re talking about a permanent transfer, keep in mind that the crew of the Discovery gave up their lives in the 23rd century to follow Burnham to the future. If the Admiral cares about the Discovery’s morale (which he clearly does since he agreed to let them stay together), transferring the person they gave up everything for is a really bad idea.

                              As for locking Georgiou up, I don’t see how they can legally do so. She hasn’t broken any laws in their universe, and I doubt their legal framework gives them jurisdiction to prosecute someone for crimes committed in another universe. Even if it did, where’s their evidence? The best they have is hearsay from the Discovery crew that people in the Mirror Universe considered her really bad and sometimes she talks about bad things to scare people, which she’s been called out for lying about in at least one insistence. They may know what she is, but this is still the Federation, so they’re going to go by the book even if they’re certain doing so will come back to bite them.

                              Well, Vance does have a say on who is on board Discovery, and while Saru may state his preferences, Star Fleet Command has the final say (remember when Discovery first got to the station and Vance was planning on moving people around?).
                              I don’t know that he has the authority to override a captain’s decision on what civilians are let onboard. He can certainly transfer Starfleet personnel, and he can threaten to replace Saru with someone who would kick Adira off, but whether he can order Saru to do so is uncertain. Here’s a quote from The Next Generation’s “The Offsping…”

                              PICARD: As do I. I would be willing to consider releasing Lal and Data to you so that he may continue his work with her.

                              …

                              PICARD: Yes, Admiral. It may not be easy for you and I to see her that way, but he does. And I respect that. They will remain here for now.

                              HAFTEL [on monitor]: Starfleet's policy on research is clear. You're making your stand on very uncertain ground. I do hope it doesn't fall out from under you. Haftel out.

                              Note that Picard appears to think he has authority over the admiral in this matter, while Haftel appears to think that he can use Starfleet’s policy of technological research to trump that authority. This suggests that had Lal been a flesh and blood person, the issue would have been closed when Picard said no.

                              I have the impression that this wasn’t the only time Picard asserted such authority over people on his ship, but as I haven’t watched previous Star Trek shows in decades, this is the only example I was able to recall.

                              And where's Adira going to go if Vance orders them off of Discovery? Adira could go to Earth, but I got the sense that going back there wouldn't be a preferred option, nor would going to the trill homeworld be an optimal choice. Staying with Star Fleet in some capacity seems to be their best option.
                              Forcing a person from the only people they’ve bonded with on the expectation that they’ll continue working for you because they have nowhere to go is extremely manipulative. While it’s true that Adira may stay because they have nowhere to go, it’s also possible they would leave out of anger, and even if it works it’s not in Adira's best interest, something the Admiral would take into consideration since he’s obviously a compassionate leader.

                              I've been suggesting that there should have been additional crew members brought on board Discovery, who are familiar with the future tech, and/or may act as a "native guide". Why would these Star Fleet personnel not be trustworthy? I'm assuming here that you meant "familiar", however, Adira hasn't been with Discovery for all that long (maybe a month or so?) and other than Stamets, who have they really interacted with (maybe Culber)?
                              I concur. I was also surprised that one or a handful of 31st century personnel weren’t transferred to the Discovery as they would indeed be very helpful to have around. It’s also an opportunity to assign a science officer to temporarily study the Spore Drive while it’s being used and take that knowledge back to headquarters.

                              My comment about Adira being trustworthy wasn’t meant to imply that Starfleet personnel can’t be trusted or that it would be a bad idea to also have them onboard. I was simply stating why Saru and the crew of the Discovery would want Adira around, and why the Admiral has reason to agree that they can useful there. That is not to say that Starfleet personnel wouldn’t also be trustworthy and bring useful knowledge with them.

                              And while Adira may have a knack with tech, what does Adira really know about the galaxy beyond the Sol system, unless the symbiote suddenly wakes up when convenient and supplies some deep insight.
                              I don’t know what Adira knows about the galaxy. They traveled aboard a Starfleet ship before reaching Earth, but what that entailed is unclear at the moment. However, I was indeed referring to the prospect that the symbiote would come through in the future: “and about the state of the galaxy, which Adria would be to a far greater extent if they develop the ability to readily access all of the symbiote's knowledge.”

                              There is a good point here, that Adira, being a quick study, does fit being mentored by Stamets. This being said, as Discovery doesn't seem to be going out on missions all that often, Stamets and Adira could be taken off of regular duty on Discovery and tasked with assisting in the building of additional spore drives, and in the training of personnel in how to use these things. When Discovery is being sent off on a mission, Stamets could be returned to the ship while Adira remains on the station using what knowledge they have gained to continue the work.
                              I am unclear right now how difficult creating a new spore drive would be, and that’s something the show should correct sooner rather than later. Is it something that can be installed in an existing ship or does it need a ship to be designed around it, and if so does the Federation have the resources to build new ships or are they holding on with ships that survived the burn? Similarly, do they have the ability to create another navigator? Stamets can do what he does because he injected himself with tardigrade blood. Do they think that has some sort of probability of killing the person and Stamets simply lucked out? Do they have more blood on hand? If they do not have more blood, can they get more? As I recall, the tardigrade’s appearance on Discovery’s sister ship was an accident that had some vague connection to how they were experimenting with the drive. Does Discovery have any idea how to recreate that so they capture another one?

                              I appreciate that the writers want to keep Discovery unique for awhile longer, but they need to clearly establish why Starfleet doesn’t appear to be devoting resources into researching how they can replicate the technology at the moment.

                              My assumption is that Ryn would still have required some medical assistance after the events of "Scavengers" (the spore drive gets Discovery back the same day). In any event, he could have/should have been off-loaded as soon as Discovery got back, rather than lying about in Discovery's sick bay or otherwise have been given lodgings on board ship (for weeks?). If he wanted to talk to Saru, he would have then made his request from the station, and would not have been cooling his heels in the hallway outside of the Saru's office a week or so later. If Saru wanted to do the interview on Discovery, then he would have brought Ryn back on board.

                              Ryn could also have been de-briefed by Star Fleet during the events of "Unification 3", so there was no need for Saru to have to perform this function. If Ryn was insistent on Saru being around (why?) then he could throw a hissy fit until Saru was in the room. The big reveal that the Chain are running out of dilithium doesn't seem to be that big of a deal, and could have been revealed to any appropriate individual in Star Fleet.
                              Starfleet has a lot going on. They have to coordinate their limited resources to respond to an ever-expanding series of crises, so I don’t see how it’s helpful to make every person a ship picks up their problem. The Discovery clearly has the resources and capability to host, guard, debrief, and ultimately accommodate Ryn’s plans for leaving. On top of that, Saru made the decision to bring Ryn onboard for medical treatment, so all those things I just listed should be his responsibility to deal with it, even under normal circumstances.

                              I don't see why Star Fleet would delay the departure of Discovery, non-combat mission or not, just for the convenience of Ryn. If he had other things to do and wanted to leave then sure, show him the door and wish him well. This being said, Ryn likely didn't have a lot of resources to draw upon since he was previously being kept as a slave, so how would he be able to pay for passage? And Booker was around (during "Unification 3"), so didn't he go see his Andorian buddy while he was in sick bay?
                              I didn’t say they would. I said Ryn would be forced to remain on the station in that instance, forcing him to “either have to try to get passage on another ship or be stuck waiting around until Discovery was next allowed to leave.”

                              Assuming Star Fleet was done with Ryn, he could just as easily be placed on any ship (on Star Fleet's dime) which was going somewhere and Ryn could make his way from there. If Book wanted to find Ryn after that then he knows where to start looking (as noted above, there was ample time for them to talk). If Star Fleet was feeling grateful for some assistance from Ryn (and he hadn't really done that much for Star Fleet at this point) then sure, they could keep him around for a few extra days (assuming Booker wasn't back right away).
                              Starfleet has a limited number of ships that need to respond to very specific problems. There’s no telling when one’s route would correspond with a suitable drop-off point for Ryn, or if they’d be willing to use dilithium and precious time going out of their way to get him to one. Especially since it’s much easier for Discovery to cut him loose, and, again, Saru would rightfully consider it his responsibility to do so since he brought Ryn onboard.
                              Last edited by Xaeden; 17 December 2020, 03:10 AM.

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