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  1. #81
    Major General VampyreWraith's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon Horus View Post
    The reason we are all in lockdown is to "flatten the curve" so that our hospitals can handle the number of patients.

    I think Italy is a prime example of what happens when you don't flatten the curve and you have an overload on patients in hospitals. You can't treat them all and have to make the choice on who to save and who to make as comfortable as possible because dying of Covid-19 is not a pleasant way to go.

    EDIT
    In fact, I just read an article that Doctors in the USA are toying with the ethical idea of a universal DNR for corona patients.
    End edit

    You can also be infected, have no symptoms whatsoever but still spread it like a proper Typhoid Mary or Patient Zero.

    if everyone could get tested, it might be possible to relax the lockdown rules but we have no way of doing that. There are simply not enough tests available and those that are should be kept for those who actually need them.

    We're gonna have to suffer a bit to make it through the worst, and maybe if we do so, we'll be able to ward if off faster when it returns for a second wave.

    I work for an HR company. I see what it does to companies which have to close and independent workers which have no income now... I see all of that up close and I worry about the economy. But I'd rather we face this **** head on right now, then have to suffer through ups and downs in the coming months -- I say get it over with and lets work together to make the best of it.
    I know that, I've said that in many of my posts on several threads. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a lockdown, just not one that lasts several months.

  2. #82
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by VampyreWraith View Post
    I knew that lung damage reduces lung function, I just hadn't read anything on the topic of how this virus can affect the lung function of those that have recovered until MG mentioned it here and I went and read about it after.

    I can just imagine all the suicides and suicide attempts from people who've lost their livelyhoods and possibly even family members because of this.

    As for the several month lockdown idea, I still don't think it's necessary or viable. You can lockdown the people at high risk for several months, they can work from home or be on disability or something. Anyone with virus related anxiety can stay lockeddown as well and either work from home or get disability. All these people can get stuff delivered to them to minimize contact with others if they want, maybe provide masks for those that don't already have them or can't get them. Maybe have guidelines or rules for households that have high risk members to help minimize risk of infection. The high risk people could have their health monitored. Everyone else could go back to work and try to live normal lives again. There will be a risk of getting covid-19 if you haven't already gotten it, and some of those low-risk people may develop severe issues and die, but that's stuff we deal with everyday anyway. Sometimes normally healthy people die of the flu or of random bacterial infections. You can't lock healthy people up for months on end so that they can't try to make a living, cripple the economy (which affects more that just people gambling their money away on stocks), and cause a host of other issues in the process. Now, I'm not saying everything back to normal by Easter or anything, but I think several months of lockdown for everyone is excessive.
    Problem with the "voluntary lockdown" you advocate is that it won't protect workers. Suppose we do what you suggest. The govt. dictate for isolation is lifted. Next thing is business owners open back up and expect their workers to show up.

    Any employees who have "virus related anxiety" and choose to continue to isolate themselves will be fired for not showing up to work. In our system, that's fired for cause. No unemployment or other assistance.

    So, lifting the govt. decree doesn't leave the vast majority of workers a choice. Work whether it is safe to do so or not, or get fired and starve. The only folks for whom it's voluntary is the decision makers, not the people at large.

    Of course, this is just a side argument; the main reason is still that we have to let the disease run its course before we open up or we will have a lot more people infected before the day is done.
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  3. #83
    Major General VampyreWraith's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    Problem with the "voluntary lockdown" you advocate is that it won't protect workers. Suppose we do what you suggest. The govt. dictate for isolation is lifted. Next thing is business owners open back up and expect their workers to show up.

    Any employees who have "virus related anxiety" and choose to continue to isolate themselves will be fired for not showing up to work. In our system, that's fired for cause. No unemployment or other assistance.

    So, lifting the govt. decree doesn't leave the vast majority of workers a choice. Work whether it is safe to do so or not, or get fired and starve. The only folks for whom it's voluntary is the decision makers, not the people at large.

    Of course, this is just a side argument; the main reason is still that we have to let the disease run its course before we open up or we will have a lot more people infected before the day is done.
    I never said it would be voluntary that high risk people stay on lockdown. People go on disability for anxiety all the time. There could be a new category added specifically to deal with this and those people affected. Instead of all those healthy people on unemployment, you'd have high risk people or people with anxiety who are on lockdown on disability.

  4. #84
    Air Force Chief of Staff Falcon Horus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by VampyreWraith View Post
    I know that, I've said that in many of my posts on several threads. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a lockdown, just not one that lasts several months.
    I'd say 2 months tops... after which social distancing rules stay in place but people can go out again, keeping certain rules in place.

    Also... social distance of one Tapir is a good distance. Or the wingspan of a Turkey Vulgure. Or 3 Armadillos or 4 Raccoons. Or 2 Crocodiles, or 1 Great Dane dog.

    Quote Originally Posted by VampyreWraith View Post
    I never said it would be voluntary that high risk people stay on lockdown. People go on disability for anxiety all the time. There could be a new category added specifically to deal with this and those people affected. Instead of all those healthy people on unemployment, you'd have high risk people or people with anxiety who are on lockdown on disability.
    I think -- and I live in a system with universal healthcare -- that there's no system which could sustain that model.

    Besides, proving anxiety is a lot harder to do than proving a physical ailment.
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  5. #85
    Major General VampyreWraith's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon Horus View Post
    I'd say 2 months tops... after which social distancing rules stay in place but people can go out again, keeping certain rules in place.

    Also... social distance of one Tapir is a good distance. Or the wingspan of a Turkey Vulgure. Or 3 Armadillos or 4 Raccoons. Or 2 Crocodiles, or 1 Great Dane dog.



    I think -- and I live in a system with universal healthcare -- that there's no system which could sustain that model.

    Besides, proving anxiety is a lot harder to do than proving a physical ailment.
    We already have a ton of people on unemployment because they aren't being allowed to work and a lot more trying to file. Most of the people 70+ are already retired and receiving social security and/or a pension, they wouldn't be getting disability because they aren't out of work because of this. The people getting disability would be people that fall into high risk catagories that can't work from home. Most people can get a doctors note if they have a respitory illness or heart disease or whatever and turn that into their employer if they still have a job but can't go in, and apply for disability or however the process works. Anxiexty is harder to prove if you're claiming disability, and if you are claiming that you can't work because you're afraid you'll catch something if you go out, that also means you can't go out to the bar or restaurant. Thresholds for proving you're at high risk or whatever can also be lowered depending on the situation. There would still be low risk people who's jobs are gone completely because their workplace closed permanently on unemployment, but at least all the jobless people who still are able to work aren't on unemployment or filing for unemployment because they don't work at someplace essential and their place if employment is temporarily closed. It should be less people being supported by the government financially overall and the economy may be able to start to recover a little. Having the high risk people quarantined/on lockdown/practicing social distancing, whatever you want to call it, should lessen the burnen on the Healthcare system too

    To add: I'm saying something like this could be implemented if lockdowns are still necessary after around a month or so (maybe less) of being in one depending on the overall situation of the area.
    Last edited by VampyreWraith; March 27th, 2020 at 09:10 AM.

  6. #86
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by VampyreWraith View Post
    We already have a ton of people on unemployment because they aren't being allowed to work and a lot more trying to file. Most of the people 70+ are already retired and receiving social security and/or a pension, they wouldn't be getting disability because they aren't out of work because of this. The people getting disability would be people that fall into high risk catagories that can't work from home. Most people can get a doctors note if they have a respitory illness or heart disease or whatever and turn that into their employer if they still have a job but can't go in, and apply for disability or however the process works. Anxiexty is harder to prove if you're claiming disability, and if you are claiming that you can't work because you're afraid you'll catch something if you go out, that also means you can't go out to the bar or restaurant. Thresholds for proving you're at high risk or whatever can also be lowered depending on the situation. There would still be low risk people who's jobs are gone completely because their workplace closed permanently on unemployment, but at least all the jobless people who still are able to work aren't on unemployment or filing for unemployment because they don't work at someplace essential and their place if employment is temporarily closed. It should be less people being supported by the government financially overall and the economy may be able to start to recover a little. Having the high risk people quarantined/on lockdown/practicing social distancing, whatever you want to call it, should lessen the burnen on the Healthcare system too

    To add: I'm saying something like this could be implemented if lockdowns are still necessary after around a month or so (maybe less) of being in one depending on the overall situation of the area.
    The minute they lift the govt. ordered restrictions on business being open, you're going to see many more people in the same boat these poor folks are in:

    https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus...any-angry.html

    That is what is considered an "essential business", so the lockdown rules don't apply to it.

    These folks are in a call center, doing customer service or tech support. There is no reason on the face of the earth that that job can't be done from home. I speak from experience, I used to to that job and I was a work at home.

    Ever work in a call center? It's a cubicle farm, people working 8 hour shifts, sitting 3-4 feet from 4 or more other people in their cubicles. You cannot possibly practice "social distancing" in that environment. But the employees don't have a choice. If the employer is permitted to open, and he wants you to go to work, you go to work or get fired.

    You suggest revamping our benefits system. You live in NY State, so I assume you know how frakked up this place is. Do you really trust NY state government to do that?

    We ran into this yesterday; we can't discuss the political aspects here, but they are a major aspect of this whole situation. All I can really say is that we can't do anything besides do what we are doing for a few months, at least. Businesses won't let their people make their own choice, so if "Pause NY" or whatever Cuomo calls it (and he's pushing for re-opening already) is lifted prematurely, we will defeat the purpose of what has already been done and the virus will really begin spreading.

    PS: I sent you a PM outlining a few aspects of NY state politics.
    Last edited by Annoyed; March 27th, 2020 at 09:49 AM. Reason: Added PS
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  7. #87
    Major General VampyreWraith's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    The minute they lift the govt. ordered restrictions on business being open, you're going to see many more people in the same boat these poor folks are in:

    https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus...any-angry.html

    That is what is considered an "essential business", so the lockdown rules don't apply to it.

    These folks are in a call center, doing customer service or tech support. There is no reason on the face of the earth that that job can't be done from home. I speak from experience, I used to to that job and I was a work at home.

    Ever work in a call center? It's a cubicle farm, people working 8 hour shifts, sitting 3-4 feet from 4 or more other people in their cubicles. You cannot possibly practice "social distancing" in that environment. But the employees don't have a choice. If the employer is permitted to open, and he wants you to go to work, you go to work or get fired.

    You suggest revamping our benefits system. You live in NY State, so I assume you know how frakked up this place is. Do you really trust NY state government to do that?

    We ran into this yesterday; we can't discuss the political aspects here, but they are a major aspect of this whole situation. All I can really say is that we can't do anything besides do what we are doing for a few months, at least. Businesses won't let their people make their own choice, so if "Pause NY" or whatever Cuomo calls it (and he's pushing for re-opening already) is lifted prematurely, we will defeat the purpose of what has already been done and the virus will really begin spreading.
    I agree that people that work in a call center should be allowed to work from home, so it was wrong of Spectrum or other companies to force people to report to a call center when it would be safer to work from home. At the end of the article it did say that they were allowing call center employees to work remotely now though.

    The company I work for started having some people in corporate offices and such work remotely before NY went into this pause thing and we closed stores before we were required to. We've also been getting paid and will be getting paid for at least another week(regular store employees too). Upper management has been very nice and supportive (so far lol) checking in with store managers and store managers checking in with their store associates. Before we closed if anyone called out because they felt it was unsafe to come into work, no one was penalized for it, if they wanted to use sick days, they could use sick days, no questions asked. It was one of the things that came down from corporate, so it was a company-wide policy (hopefully it was listened to by individual managers). I'm sure other companies did/are doing the same. Everyplace isn't going to take advantage of their workers, though I'm sure some will try.

    If the government issues a mandate that all high risk people are to remain practicing social distancing and not to return to work. There should be serious consequences for employers firing high risk workers for not being able to report to work.

    I'm not suggesting revamping the entire thing. They can even keep getting unemployment or whatever they're getting now for being out of work, it doesn't have to disability, as long as people are getting the money they need to survive. I haven't really had bad experiences with the benefit system, so I can't really comment on that personally. Though I've read that it's getting almost impossible to apply for unemployment benefits online because the site keeps crashing and wait times on the phone impossiblely long and often times you get disconnected.

    Last I read, he only breify brought up the idea of letting younger healthy people go back to work, and he didn't give a timetable for it. I don't think that's a bad idea.

  8. #88
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by VampyreWraith View Post

    The company I work for started having some people in corporate offices and such work remotely before NY went into this pause thing and we closed stores before we were required to. We've also been getting paid and will be getting paid for at least another week(regular store employees too). Upper management has been very nice and supportive (so far lol) checking in with store managers and store managers checking in with their store associates. Before we closed if anyone called out because they felt it was unsafe to come into work, no one was penalized for it, if they wanted to use sick days, they could use sick days, no questions asked. It was one of the things that came down from corporate, so it was a company-wide policy (hopefully it was listened to by individual managers). I'm sure other companies did/are doing the same. Everyplace isn't going to take advantage of their workers, though I'm sure some will try.
    That's the point as far as this particular aspect of this is concerned. If you let 'em, many (most?) businesses will do the same thing the cable company did. So you can't let 'em. Unless you want to tell the employees of all those companies that they aren't worth squat.
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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  9. #89
    Major General VampyreWraith's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    That's the point as far as this particular aspect of this is concerned. If you let 'em, many (most?) businesses will do the same thing the cable company did. So you can't let 'em. Unless you want to tell the employees of all those companies that they aren't worth squat.
    So don't let them. If you put out a set of rules/laws protecting workers, there should be steep penalties for breaking those rules.

  10. #90
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by VampyreWraith View Post
    So don't let them. If you put out a set of rules/laws protecting workers, there should be steep penalties for breaking those rules.
    Companies can pay lawyers. Workers can't. Game over.
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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  11. #91
    Lieutenant Colonel SoulReaver's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    welp looks like Sanctity of Life does have its limits :/

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/te...ce/ar-BB11N147


    Quote Originally Posted by jelgate View Post
    Soul is right.

  12. #92
    Major General VampyreWraith's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    Companies can pay lawyers. Workers can't. Game over.
    People take companies to court all the time for discrimination and the like, it's also really bad press if a company is firing workers with a chronic respitory illness if it's mandated that they stay home for their health and so that the Healthcare system doesn't get overburdened.

  13. #93
    Air Force Chief of Staff Falcon Horus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by VampyreWraith View Post
    People take companies to court all the time for discrimination and the like, it's also really bad press if a company is firing workers with a chronic respitory illness if it's mandated that they stay home for their health and so that the Healthcare system doesn't get overburdened.
    But CEO's generally don't care about those workers enough. They want to see profit and if you're not gonna show up for work, what good are you to them when there are abled bodied others who can do your job and don't have to stay home because of poor health or reasons.

    ****

    In other news... our lockdown has been extended to the 19th of April, and we'll probably get another extension after that until the 3rd of May.

    Got news today from our CEO that from the 13th of April onwards -- and likely sooner -- each of us employees (approx. 1500 of us) will be going on technical unemployement for 1 day each. This rule will apply to everyone, from the lowest category to the CEO himself. We're in it together.

    Our numbers so far:

    3042 patients in hospitals across the country
    690 in ICU
    858 released from the hospital
    289 deaths
    1 infected cat (but it recovered -- human to cat)
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  14. #94
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by VampyreWraith View Post
    People take companies to court all the time for discrimination and the like, it's also really bad press if a company is firing workers with a chronic respitory illness if it's mandated that they stay home for their health and so that the Healthcare system doesn't get overburdened.
    Sorry, dear. I've played this game more than once when I was younger and dumber. The business has more resources than I do, so they win.
    Unless you have some group backing you, it's game over before it starts.
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  15. #95
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon Horus View Post

    In other news... our lockdown has been extended to the 19th of April, and we'll probably get another extension after that until the 3rd of May.
    *pats Belgium on head* "Good country. Good little country"

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon Horus View Post
    Our numbers so far:

    1 infected cat (but it recovered -- human to cat)
    I didn't know cats could get this. What I read from the AVMA says they can't. Hmmmm.
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  16. #96
    Major General VampyreWraith's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon Horus View Post
    But CEO's generally don't care about those workers enough. They want to see profit and if you're not gonna show up for work, what good are you to them when there are abled bodied others who can do your job and don't have to stay home because of poor health or reasons.
    Not if you make it illegal for them to fire you for health reasons where the government itself was saying you have to stay home. You may have to go to court to prove they fired you for health reasons to get compensation, but this happens all the time. And if you get fired, you go on unemployment, which is what you'd be on anyway if your job was closed because of a lockdown.

    When people go on disability or maternity leave or whatever, most places hire temp workers to replace them. My son worked a temp job doing maintenance at a zoo. He worked there until the regular employee got off disability and then he was let go. My brother's wife also worked a temp job as as an executive assistant until someone got back from maternity leave. People going on disability and returning to there jobs isn't a new thing.

  17. #97
    Major General VampyreWraith's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    Sorry, dear. I've played this game more than once when I was younger and dumber. The business has more resources than I do, so they win.
    Unless you have some group backing you, it's game over before it starts.
    If people can take a case all the way to the Supreme Court because they were discriminated against because of their race or their sexuality, someone can take a company to court if they were fired because of a health reason that they were forced to stay home for by the government itself. Some anti-discrimination group or whatever would be all over it if that happened.

  18. #98
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    Sorry, dear. I've played this game more than once when I was younger and dumber. The business has more resources than I do, so they win.
    Unless you have some group backing you, it's game over before it starts.
    Quote Originally Posted by VampyreWraith View Post
    If people can take a case all the way to the Supreme Court because they were discriminated against because of their race or their sexuality, someone can take a company to court if they were fired because of a health reason that they were forced to stay home for by the government itself.
    Remember what I said about having some group backing you? Either race or sexuality will garner support from well-heeled groups. On the other hand, a single white male worker, not so much. As I said, I've played this game before.

    When's the last time you heard of an individual making it that far in the courts with no financial backing?
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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  19. #99
    Major General VampyreWraith's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    Remember what I said about having some group backing you? Either race or sexuality will garner support from well-heeled groups. On the other hand, a single white male worker, not so much. As I said, I've played this game before.

    When's the last time you heard of an individual making it that far in the courts with no financial backing?
    When they have a lawyer who can see a huge payday and tons of media attention from filing the lawsuit. And some anti-discrimination group would be all over something like that. (I added a line about that in my last post after I hit submit).

    Just to add: I mentioned it in my reply to Falcon Horus, if this hypothetical person in this hypothetical seceario gets fired, they end up on unemployment, which is what they would have been on if their job was still closed because of a lockdown anyway. Getting fired because you were forced by the government to stay home because of a pandemic is not your fault.
    Last edited by VampyreWraith; March 27th, 2020 at 05:18 PM.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: The Covid19 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    Remember what I said about having some group backing you? Either race or sexuality will garner support from well-heeled groups. On the other hand, a single white male worker, not so much. As I said, I've played this game before.

    When's the last time you heard of an individual making it that far in the courts with no financial backing?
    I smashed the crap out of my employer at work with no lawyer in court when I got fired for someone stealing our safe (which was bolted to the concrete floor).
    It can be done dude, it's not easy but it can be done.
    ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
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