GateWorld Forum: 2020 Vision!

[Annoyed]

I think it's not so much about having to understand that, it is enough if one keeps in mind that saying rude or offending things about a character can hurt others
That does not entirely mean that one cannot say anything critical, but there is a better way to say that. Instead of saying you can say "I think...." this makes it clear without any doubt that it is just your opinion and not a given fact.

It is but a small thing but can make a difference for if you say someone is stupid, another person can feel like they are stupid for liking someone stupid. When you say you think someone is stupid, the other person who likes that character can likely live with it better because they can tell it is your opinion they do not have to agree with. An opinion is likely to hurt less because it (or the one who has it) could be ignored, whereas if it feels like a fact it can be taken personal

I can give nothing but my own opinions. As I've said many times before, I believe in free speech; the speaker can say what he wishes. It is up to the audience to determine the value of what is said. If the reader doesn't think Khan is a scumbag, he is perfectly free to ignore my opinion or whatever I say.

I can't really go any farther with this in public, though I have more to say about it. If you wish to continue this by PM, let me know.

[Annoyed]

The negative intrusions...
About Tv/Film character bashing, years ago when Battlestar Galactica was revamped into more brutal, gutteral tones than its original BSG (with male Starbuck), I found myself feeling "ganged-up" on by the majority of viewers on the main thread who liked the more violent direction the revamped series had taken. The few of us who tried to enjoy both series, but felt dissatisfied with the ganging up issues, some of us got tired of it and left the thread. I wasn't fond of the violence, but felt that was the direction future sci-fi wanted to go into and any discussions to sway against that weren't helping no matter how constructive the arguments became.

Personally, I like both incarnations of Galactica, each has their own good and bad points.
That's kinda the point of this discussion, however.

If I write that NuBSG is stupid because it's just a vehicle for violence and showing #6's feminine attributes, that's fine (in my opinion). If, on the other hand, I write that user_001 is stupid for liking NuBSG, then that's offensive, and ought not to be permitted.

If you get a group of people discussing anything, different people are going to have different opinions, and if you don't expect that, it's probably best not to participate. If people can't criticize anything because someone might take it personally, well, there's not going to be much of a discussion.

[VampyreWraith]

In general I agree with what Annoyed is saying, but sometimes it's not as straightforward as that. Like, say character x is a gay character and he's also a moraly gray character who betrayed his friends or something as well. User001 keeps saying things like "character x is stupid and Hollywood keeps trying to push their adgena by normalizing that sort of behavior". While not outright saying anything bad about another user or their sexuality you know that they aren't talking about character x's morally dubious actions because their favorite character, character y (who happens to be straight), has done the same kind of thing. I can definitely see how other people can get offended by something like that even if it's not specifically directed at them and how that can get out of hand if it's allowed to flourish. I see that kind of stuff a lot (not here specifically, but in general).

[Annoyed]

In general I agree with what Annoyed is saying, but sometimes it's not as straightforward as that. Like, say character x is a gay character and he's also a moraly gray character who betrayed his friends or something as well. User001 keeps saying things like "character x is stupid and Hollywood keeps trying to push their adgena by normalizing that sort of behavior". While not outright saying anything bad about another user or their sexuality you know that they aren't talking about character x's morally dubious actions because their favorite character, character y (who happens to be straight), has done the same kind of thing. I can definitely see how other people can get offended by something like that even if it's not specifically directed at them and how that can get out of hand if it's allowed to flourish. I see that kind of stuff a lot (not here specifically, but in general).

In your instance, User001 is a hypocrite, by accepting the behavior from Char. y while condemning it from Char. x.

That should be obvious to all reading the piece, and therefore the value assigned to the piece can be adjusted accordingly.

Regarding "Hollywood keeps trying to push their adgena by normalizing that sort of behavior".

Hollywood has been pushing a liberal, permissive "if it feels good, do it" attitude for many decades now, with ever increasing violence and sexuality. Remember how shocking "Charlies Angels" or "Three's Company" were back in the day, as they pushed the envelope back then? Nowdays, you're lucky to get a "yawn" as a reaction.

There is a real GW forum user who has expressed his dislike of this trend several times. He has stated that he has chosen not to watch some shows because of this. For all I know, he may be offended by this trend, and the general acceptance of it.

Shouldn't his feelings be taken into consideration, and comments encouraging or supporting this trend be disallowed under the same logic?

Who do you offend? Whose feelings should be protected?

The current incarnation of "Doctor Who" is a good example of this. The Showrunner, Chibnall has been making blatant commentary on real world issues, even to the point of having Jodi Whittaker "break the fourth wall" and make speeches directly to the audience. Many people (including myself) don't like that kind of thing, that's not what I watch TV for. And I will be honest, I don't like the message he's pushing.

Shouldn't the show's choice to do that kind of thing be fair game for discussion? Or can't we risk offending an environmental activist (to pick an example) or something?

You can't have discussions without different views being expressed, and not everyone is going to agree with everything that is said. That is the price of having the discussions. Can't have one without the other.

[VampyreWraith]

First it was just a random example, I haven't been here for awhile because of stuff in real life, so I don't know about specific issues with other posters. Next, I'm not sure what you're saying, are you saying it should be OK for someone to call a whole group of people abnormal for existing? I wasn't talking about showing explicit sex scenes or anything. If someone doesn't want to watch a show because it has gay people (or any other group of people) in it and that offends them, no one is forcing them to watch it, and no, I don't think they have a right to insult other people just because they themselves feel like they've been offended.

[Falcon Horus]

...Jodi Whittaker...

It's Jodie with an "e" at the end.

[Annoyed]

First it was just a random example, I haven't been here for awhile because of stuff in real life, so I don't know about specific issues with other posters. Next, I'm not sure what you're saying, are you saying it should be OK for someone to call a whole group of people abnormal for existing? I wasn't talking about showing explicit sex scenes or anything. If someone doesn't want to watch a show because it has gay people (or any other group of people) in it and that offends them, no one is forcing them to watch it, and no, I don't think they have a right to insult other people just because they themselves feel like they've been offended.

I guess the most succinct way I can say it is "Let everyone say their piece, and let the audience decide the value of what is said."

It's no secret that I'm significantly older than most here. If you want to make a post calling me a decrepit, senile old boomer, feel free. I won't object at all. I'll just consider the source and move on. That's the way open discussions should be handled.

Besides, in too many ways, you're probably right.

But in my opinion, a person taking personal offense at criticism or insults that targets a fictional character is absurd.

[Annoyed]

It's Jodie with an "e" at the end.

Bah! I finally remember that Whittaker is 2 T's and you want the first name spelled right too?

[VampyreWraith]

I guess the most succinct way I can say it is "Let everyone say their piece, and let the audience decide the value of what is said."

It's no secret that I'm significantly older than most here. If you want to make a post calling me a decrepit, senile old boomer, feel free. I won't object at all. I'll just consider the source and move on. That's the way open discussions should be handled.

Besides, in too many ways, you're probably right.

Before I wasn't saying that people shouldn't be able to say that a character is bland and pointless and only there
because of a Hollywood liberal agenda or whatever, but there's a way to have that discussion without getting personal or insulting people. It might get old for some if that's all that one person keeps going on about, but I think there's still an ignore function on here and they should use it if they're just finding someone's opinion annoying. I haven't started the new season of Doctor Who yet, but if there's a discussion going on about a showrunner's ham-fisted attempt (in someone's opinion) at inserting social issues into the show, I don't see a problem with that as long as it doesn't devolve into name-calling and bullying. Others may not have as thick a skin as you and some people out there may have been traumatized by their experiences to an extent where they can't handle personal attacks on their identity. I don't think trying to be respectful and mindful of other people's feelings is a bad thing. That's basically all I'm saying.

[Annoyed]

Before I wasn't saying that people shouldn't be able to say that a character is bland and pointless and only there
because of a Hollywood liberal agenda or whatever, but there's a way to have that discussion without getting personal or insulting people. It might get old for some if that's all that one person keeps going on about, but I think there's still an ignore function on here and they should use it if they're just finding someone's opinion annoying. I haven't started the new season of Doctor Who yet, but if there's a discussion going on about a showrunner's ham-fisted attempt (in someone's opinion) at inserting social issues into the show, I don't see a problem with that as long as it doesn't devolve into name-calling and bullying. Others may not have as thick a skin as you and some people out there may have been traumatized by their experiences to an extent where they can't handle personal attacks on their identity. I don't think trying to be respectful and mindful of other people's feelings is a bad thing. That's basically all I'm saying.

I've been trying to think of a rhyme that goes along the lines of "heck, no, Chibnall must go".

[VampyreWraith]

But in my opinion, a person taking personal offense at criticism or insults that targets a fictional character is absurd.

Sorry you added this part after I replied, I don't necessarily disagree with that, but everyone is different and some are more sensitive to certain things than others. My made up example wasn't about someone just criticizing a fictional character though, they criticized a character by calling them stupid, yes, but then they went one to basically call an entire group of real life people abnormal, when they implied that there was an agenda to try to "normalize that sort of behavior", which in my example specifically meant homosexuality.

[VampyreWraith]

I've been trying to think of a rhyme that goes along the lines of "heck, no, Chibnall must go".

LOL, I wasn't the biggest fan of his first season, and depending on what I think of this new season, I might have to agree with you.

[Annoyed]

One further thought on this topic. It sounds trite, but it is true and might help someone.

In all the world/universe/whatever, there is only 1* person whose opinion of your worth matters, and you look at them in the mirror every morning when you brush your teeth.

*There may be more than 1 if there really is such a thing as "God".

[Falcon Horus]

So errm.... how about those newbies?

Where are they? Cause if activity goes down any further, there won't be a Gateworld left to come back to...

[Darren]

We've had a handful of new user registrations this year, but so far have not pulled the trigger on our planned membership drive.

That's largely because we are negotiating hosting and software issues on the back-end, and want to reach some resolution on that before we invite a bunch of new friends over to play. Stay tuned!

[immhotep]

Just logged back in for the first time in a while. Is there any way to find the old fleet/Science and tech threads?

If not would be be possible for someone to extract them and send them to me? We all put a huge amount of work in to those back in the day so it would be good to have them.

[Bagpuss]

Hi immhotep.Good to see you!

Sent you a pm with the direct links you'll need.

[immhotep]

Brill, thanks a lot. I can see they are just in the general SG1 area now, that's great.

[Falcon Horus]

Brill, thanks a lot. I can see they are just in the general SG1 area now, that's great.

2020 Vision

[magi877]

I'm not going to spend too much time on this. We all have differing opinions of course, which is fine

The only thing I'm going to add here is that, from my perspective, there are so, so, many other places to talk politics in general, and some places where you (general you) can talk specifically about politics. You don't have to go to this forum at all to do that, if that's all you want. But there aren't that many places, relatively speaking, dedicated to sci-fi and fantasy specifically, and Stargate even more so.

All in all, I do agree with you personally. We can avoid those threads altogether, which I have always done. I also just wanted to provide a fair argument in support of GW's decision.

yes there are many places online to talk politics (politicaljack is one place) BUT many of us like to talk politics with other users whose online personas we are already familiar with BECAUSE WE SHARE a love of sci fi. among other things, it makes us (me at least) wonder WHAT ELSE might we share in common?

I am not asking for the continued presence of politics here, it is apparent those in charge have made a firm decision on that, just trying to share some perspective on how I and, I think, a few other political discussion participants feel

thanks!!