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  1. #1
    Site Admin GateWorld's Avatar
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    Post How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    BATWOMAN - SEASON ONE
    HOW QUEER EVERYTHING IS TODAY!
    EPISODE NUMBER - 110
    While Gotham busies itself reacting to Batwoman's awkward encounter, Alice celebrates her ultimate act of vengeance with Mouse. A devastated Mary focuses on Jacob Kane's trial, while Sophie seeks advice about her love life from someone unexpected. (The CW)

    VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >>

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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    I hope they don't kill the golden goose.

    Batwoman Ratings Collapse With 'Queer' Episode

    Myself, I liked this episode. Being straight with the people of Gotham should be expectged, and she chose a very good reason to come out; to help that youngster.

    My only issue with the episode is how the heck did Alice get the drop on her? Gotta be more awake to wear the cowl, dear.

    But the episode was titled "Queer" and that was promoted all week; releases to reviewers and such. Did that promo stuff, using that part of the title turn viewers off?

    I like this show. I hope it doesn't kill itself on the altar of Diversity. Doctor Who is doing the same thing too, it seems.
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    I liked the episode, fairly light, but had some strong performances.

    I didn't like the final scene, Kate's words/voice didn't seem to match Ruby Rose.

    Very curious how this is surprise is accepted or not by others. I mean, Beth apparently took an international flight (with a passport), but this reality still has Alice's history. So the world thinks Beth died and the Kanes know she became Alice.

    Beth is going to have a hard time adjusting to this reality. Someone should have done a better job when they assembled this new universe.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Once more, it fascinates me how different a message people can get from episodes of TV shows.
    Kate has been betrayed by her mother, her father, her sisters and her girlfriend and she made the CONCIOUS choice not to betray not only a stranger, but a criminal. Her sexuality was used as the vehicle to tell that story, yes, but it's not the story, the story is about betrayal and what you would sacrifice to stay true to your values.
    Perhaps the reason people in media beat people over the head is because they (people) have simply become inept at reading into the deeper meaning of stories.
    Truth be told, a lot of the more "moralistic" episodes of things like ST:TOS used a much more aggressive bat.
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    Truth be told, a lot of the more "moralistic" episodes of things like ST:TOS used a much more aggressive bat.
    I wonder if that's because the "moral points" that TOS pushed were more universally accepted than the points some shows are pushing today?

    I caught the last part of "The Omega Glory" last night, with the US flag coming into the room at the end and the overall theme of patriotism and that the US form of govt. was the best. In the mid-60's, the cold war and all, that would have been an almost universally accepted lesson in the United States at that time.

    Whereas the points pushed by many shows these days are no where near universally accepted.
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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  6. #6
    Colonel Gatefan1976's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    I wonder if that's because the "moral points" that TOS pushed were more universally accepted than the points some shows are pushing today?
    A multi national and multi "racial" bridge crew?
    Hardly.
    I caught the last part of "The Omega Glory" last night, with the US flag coming into the room at the end and the overall theme of patriotism and that the US form of govt. was the best. In the mid-60's, the cold war and all, that would have been an almost universally accepted lesson in the United States at that time.
    Yet, in the height of the cold war, they had a much beloved RUSSIAN bridge crew officer.
    Whereas the points pushed by many shows these days are no where near universally accepted.
    Yet, one of the main themes of TOS WAS universal acceptance, not just American acceptance.

    EDIT: The Omega Glory was a WARNING about blind patriotism and the destruction it can lead to, not a call for it. In fact, it's a theme they hit upon in Encounter at farpoint as soon as Q arrived on the bridge.
    Last edited by Gatefan1976; January 26th, 2020 at 02:27 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Tbh i am a bit fed up of the modern day tv shows that has to have a lot of LGBT in it. And this Batwomen isnt about batwomen and is more about the lesbian tv show.

    I dont mind lgbt characters but making every sci fi show evolve around them starts to get annoying
    sorry about my lack of language skills as it is not my daily language and have learned it by my self as not from any help of others or a school

  8. #8
    Colonel Gatefan1976's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by lopo30 View Post
    Tbh i am a bit fed up of the modern day tv shows that has to have a lot of LGBT in it. And this Batwomen isnt about batwomen and is more about the lesbian tv show.

    I dont mind lgbt characters but making every sci fi show evolve around them starts to get annoying
    Kate Kane has ALWAYS been gay, so it's not like they shoehorned that notion into the show. Also, look at the Arrowverse as a whole, there are not that many gay characters in it. In fact the only three that spring to mind are Kate, Alex and Kurt (Mr Incredible) all the rest are pretty much openly straight.

    I also want to stress again, it was not Kate's "gayness" that was the focus of the episode, it was betrayal and it is not the writers fault that some cannot get past the notion of her being gay in order to see that. We only learn of the main antagonists sexual orientation in the bathroom scene where she berates Batwoman for judging her, not knowing that Batwoman is herself gay and it is Batwoman who CHOOSES to "out" herself to protect her in the final beat of the show.
    That's courage and strength of character, not a failure of writing or shoehorning an "agenda" into the show.
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    Kate Kane has ALWAYS been gay, so it's not like they shoehorned that notion into the show. Also, look at the Arrowverse as a whole, there are not that many gay characters in it. In fact the only three that spring to mind are Kate, Alex and Kurt (Mr Incredible) all the rest are pretty much openly straight.

    I also want to stress again, it was not Kate's "gayness" that was the focus of the episode, it was betrayal and it is not the writers fault that some cannot get past the notion of her being gay in order to see that. We only learn of the main antagonists sexual orientation in the bathroom scene where she berates Batwoman for judging her, not knowing that Batwoman is herself gay and it is Batwoman who CHOOSES to "out" herself to protect her in the final beat of the show.
    That's courage and strength of character, not a failure of writing or shoehorning an "agenda" into the show.
    You forgot Sara Lance and Ava Sharpe in "Legends".
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    You forgot Sara Lance and Ava Sharpe in "Legends".
    OK, I forgot Sara (who is actually bisexual) and Ava (who is a partner character)
    What a full dance card of "gay people" we have over 5 shows, look how hard they are shoving their "gayness" down our throats...………
    Mick was gay, his Earth X analogue was OPENLY gay (and sent to an actual gulag for it and sentenced to execution, [mod snip])
    They ALL serve the STORY, and that is what matters. I don't care who rubs tights with who, does it serve the character, and does it serve the story?
    If the answer is Yes and Yes, then exactly WHO has an issue here?

    For Newer people and to remind the mods as to WHY this issue gets me riled up, My best friend at school was openly gay and got beaten on a regular basis because of it (unless I or my other friends were around). My second best friend is a Genderqueer bloke and my very first girlfriend was Bisexual. Even today my best friend IRL is a gay woman and the person I admire most on this board is Genderfluid.
    I don't take well to baseless assumptions that "LGBTQ"= inferior or worthy of derision and scorn, nor do I take well to the notion that just because a character is LGBTQ, that's the only story you can tell with them, or that EVERY story you tell with them is rooted in that fact. It will provide a function or basis for behaviour for that characters response to the story, yes.
    So does being straight.
    Was Oliver Queen Defined by being Straight?
    Is Barry Allen?
    Black Bolt?
    Supergirl?
    If the Answer is no, then again I ask, WHO is it that actually has a problem?
    Last edited by GateWorld; January 28th, 2020 at 09:27 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    OK, I forgot Sara (who is actually bisexual) and Ava (who is a partner character)
    What a full dance card of "gay people" we have over 5 shows, look how hard they are shoving their "gayness" down our throats...………
    Mick was gay, his Earth X analogue was OPENLY gay (and sent to an actual gulag for it and sentenced to execution, [mod snip])
    They ALL serve the STORY, and that is what matters. I don't care who rubs tights with who, does it serve the character, and does it serve the story?
    If the answer is Yes and Yes, then exactly WHO has an issue here?

    For Newer people and to remind the mods as to WHY this issue gets me riled up, My best friend at school was openly gay and got beaten on a regular basis because of it (unless I or my other friends were around). My second best friend is a Genderqueer bloke and my very first girlfriend was Bisexual. Even today my best friend IRL is a gay woman and the person I admire most on this board is Genderfluid.
    I don't take well to baseless assumptions that "LGBTQ"= inferior or worthy of derision and scorn, nor do I take well to the notion that just because a character is LGBTQ, that's the only story you can tell with them, or that EVERY story you tell with them is rooted in that fact. It will provide a function or basis for behaviour for that characters response to the story, yes.
    From my perspective, a recurring trait of Kate's is honor and integrity. She's not going to pretend to be straight at a restaurant and she's not going to lie about who she is to stay in school. As her ex stated, Kate had the luxury to drop out of the Academy because her family was connected and wealthy.

    But we have seen Kate suffer loses because of her desire for truth and to be open about herself (whether her sexuality or her opinions/feelings). She hurt her relationship with her dad, she lost her ex, and she hurt Mary.

    She accepted that she had to wear the mask to scare criminals by maintaining the look of the Bat. But seeing the media just treat her by default as straight and how it was hurting a teenager like her, growing up as lesbian. That meant she felt her secret was causing more harm than good.

    So she sacrificed some of her anonymity (making it easier for folks to determine who is Batwoman), in order to help young people like her looking for a role model.
    Last edited by GateWorld; January 28th, 2020 at 09:28 PM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    OK, I forgot Sara (who is actually bisexual) and Ava (who is a partner character)
    What a full dance card of "gay people" we have over 5 shows, look how hard they are shoving their "gayness" down our throats...………
    Mick was gay, his Earth X analogue was OPENLY gay (and sent to an actual gulag for it and sentenced to execution, [mod snip])
    They ALL serve the STORY, and that is what matters. I don't care who rubs tights with who, does it serve the character, and does it serve the story?
    If the answer is Yes and Yes, then exactly WHO has an issue here?

    For Newer people and to remind the mods as to WHY this issue gets me riled up, My best friend at school was openly gay and got beaten on a regular basis because of it (unless I or my other friends were around). My second best friend is a Genderqueer bloke and my very first girlfriend was Bisexual. Even today my best friend IRL is a gay woman and the person I admire most on this board is Genderfluid.
    I don't take well to baseless assumptions that "LGBTQ"= inferior or worthy of derision and scorn, nor do I take well to the notion that just because a character is LGBTQ, that's the only story you can tell with them, or that EVERY story you tell with them is rooted in that fact. It will provide a function or basis for behaviour for that characters response to the story, yes.
    So does being straight.
    Was Oliver Queen Defined by being Straight?
    Is Barry Allen?
    Black Bolt?
    Supergirl?
    If the Answer is no, then again I ask, WHO is it that actually has a problem?
    You're attributing faults to me that aren't mine.
    Bear in mind, I can't speak much about this topic without running afoul of the new rules here.
    I don't like the new order here, but I intend on abiding by it.

    Have I ever objected to Batwoman being gay?
    Have I objected to Sara or Ava? Or Alex on Supergirl?
    Have I ever suggested that a character be placed in a gulag or sentenced to execution for being gay? (I didn't know about Rory's history)

    The objection I have on most shows and this goes quintuple for the CW's shows is why do I even know their orientation?
    Their orientation in most cases doesn't even come into play in most of the stories that are central to their respective shows.

    In Supergirl, does it matter what orientation Alex is when Supergirl is on the hunt for someone to punch? NO.
    In Legends, does it matter what Sara & Ava do when it comes to screwing history up? NO.
    Batwoman is an exception; her history and the repercussions her partner from childhood faced were more integral to the story, so that was justified in bringing it up.
    I won't say anything about Arrow, The Flash or other CW shows because I don't watch them.
    But in most cases, I shouldn't even know what anyone's orientation is.

    The problem with the CW's shows is they are all written with a very prominent sidestory which is similar to overhearing the conversation at a table of teenage girls in a Jr. High or High school cafeteria. Who is dating who this week or who is hot for who & the various schemes, skullduggery & backstabbing that is involved with all that. None of that has anyplace in most superhero stories.
    Last edited by GateWorld; January 28th, 2020 at 09:29 PM.
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    Kate Kane has ALWAYS been gay, so it's not like they shoehorned that notion into the show. Also, look at the Arrowverse as a whole, there are not that many gay characters in it. In fact the only three that spring to mind are Kate, Alex and Kurt (Mr Incredible) all the rest are pretty much openly straight.

    I also want to stress again, it was not Kate's "gayness" that was the focus of the episode, it was betrayal and it is not the writers fault that some cannot get past the notion of her being gay in order to see that. We only learn of the main antagonists sexual orientation in the bathroom scene where she berates Batwoman for judging her, not knowing that Batwoman is herself gay and it is Batwoman who CHOOSES to "out" herself to protect her in the final beat of the show.
    That's courage and strength of character, not a failure of writing or shoehorning an "agenda" into the show.
    thats the thing i know that Kate is lesbian, but this show is about batwomen and not how lesbian she is in every episode

    I cant remember the name of the older daughter of Black Lightning is gay too. Thing is that it does not matter who is gay. The point is that it's overly too much shown in these series. Like it's the most important thing about the character that they are gay. And Alex in Supergirl have new gay girlfriend in every season.

    I dont hate gay people and i have friends who are gay too. But how does it help on the story. Super hero shows are about crime solving and not who they date and especially who side characters date that mostly dont have anything to do with the story. If the side character girlfriend or boyfriend is in trouble then how does it effect the story that we need to know and see how they make out ? Just hug and do your thing off screen.

    I dont like any type of sex in tv. There are porn movies if i really need to see sex in tv.
    Last edited by lopo30; January 27th, 2020 at 02:44 PM.
    sorry about my lack of language skills as it is not my daily language and have learned it by my self as not from any help of others or a school

  14. #14
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by lopo30 View Post
    thats the thing i know that Kate is lesbian, but this show is about batwomen and not how lesbian she is in every episode

    I cant remember the name of the older daughter of Black Lightning is gay too. Thing is that it does not matter who is gay. The point is that it's overly too much shown in these series. Like it's the most important thing about the character that they are gay. And Alex in Supergirl have new gay girlfriend in every season.
    NO, the show is about Kate BEING Batwoman, and Kate is gay.
    Like Supergirl is about Kara being Supergirl, and she is straight.
    It is a function of character and sexuality IS a function of character.
    Should I object to Oliver and Felicity?
    "oh, Arrow shows too much straightness"
    "Kara is too straight for me"
    "Barry has kids?? WAY too straight"

    THIS EPISODE was not about Kate being gay, her being gay was merely the vehicle to tell a story about betrayal. Mouse felt betrayed (straight), Alice felt betrayed (straight), Mary felt betrayed (straight) Jacob is trying to deal with his new situation (straight)
    Need I go on?
    It's not "shown too much", it's just actually considered in the writing of the story and the characters.
    Get over it.
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    [mod snip]

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    Bear in mind, I can't speak much about this topic without running afoul of the new rules here.
    I don't like the new order here, but I intend on abiding by it.
    Asked and answered, we can speak to episodes or shows within their confines and I have no intention of stepping outside of that.

    [mod snip]

    The objection I have on most shows and this goes quintuple for the CW's shows is why do I even know their orientation?
    Because it plays into their decisions. A straight Kate might never have revealed her Identity to Gotham under that duress, the Gay one DID.
    It's a factor of STORY
    Or would it be better if Kate revealed her identity for a "hot guy" instead?
    Now THAT would have been shallow, but more "socially acceptable"
    Their orientation in most cases doesn't even come into play in most of the stories that are central to their respective shows.
    In Supergirl, does it matter what orientation Alex is when Supergirl is on the hunt for someone to punch?
    NO.
    Alex is not the main character she is the "gay character" as a sideline to tell a different story. Supergirl is STRAIGHT
    In Legends, does it matter what Sara & Ava do when it comes to screwing history up? NO.
    Sara is not gay, she screwed Constantine.
    She just has no fear about who or what she wants.
    She has just accepted herself, for better or worse.
    Batwoman is an exception; her history and the repercussions her partner from childhood faced were more integral to the story, so that was justified in bringing it up.
    Of course it was, so why complain now?
    I won't say anything about Arrow, The Flash or other CW shows because I don't watch them.
    But in most cases, I shouldn't even know what anyone's orientation is.
    No, what you shouldn't do is CARE about what someone's orientation is.
    Arrow and Flash made it VERY clear they were Straight guys, so where is your rage against them "pushing a straight agenda"?
    Oh, that's right, you agree, so why be mad.
    [mod snip]
    The problem with the CW's shows is they are all written with a very prominent sidestory which is similar to overhearing the conversation at a table of teenage girls in a Jr. High or High school cafeteria. Who is dating who this week or who is hot for who & the various schemes, skullduggery & backstabbing that is involved with all that. None of that has anyplace in most superhero stories.
    They are written for TEENS and if you are so [mod snip] naieve to believe that they should be written for adults, you should just simply stop watching superhero shows
    It's not WB or Disney plus, it's the frigging CW. it's BEST asset in SPN is, despite it's overtones, is a frigging kids show.
    Accept things for what they are, and sometimes, just sometimes you can get surprised and remember why you love a show.
    Last edited by GateWorld; January 28th, 2020 at 09:37 PM.
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post

    Asked and answered, we can speak to episodes or shows within their confines and I have no intention of stepping outside of that.

    [mod snip]
    No, if you think about, we can discuss gender orientation as it directly relates to the show; "why did Batwoman come out when she did" for example.

    But discussions about either your or my views on the topic are topics verboten under the new order, as they do not relate to the show itself. Your comments about me, for example have nothing to do with the show, and would be a no-no. (No, I'm not gonna go whining to the mods, that's not how I play.), and any defense I might make in return would also be off-limits.

    [mod snip]
    Last edited by GateWorld; January 28th, 2020 at 09:39 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    Sara is not gay, she screwed Constantine.
    And Constantine had a boyfriend so I'm assuming he's bisexual, or definitely not beholden to one gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by lopo30 View Post
    It only helps me to move on from these shows cause the fandom of the LGBT people and who defend them in any means is just disgusting. It's only matters what you think and if i have different opinion then you have, then you start to attack me. What gives you the right for it to attack me when i have my opinion and i am not offending in personal level ?
    What part of the part in red is not meant to be offensive, if I may be so curious?

    Quote Originally Posted by lopo30 View Post
    Teens are still kids and adults are who make the TV shows and movies. It's basically influencing the LGBT movement and manipulating with young minds. It makes it worse that the CW is channel for teens and is so heavy on LGBT side of the stories.
    I'm going to assume that you are referring to diversity in cast and characters, which bring these stories to live and, while I'm not familiar with the comics, I do assume Kate Kane is gay in the comics too. I assume they touch on the subject -- one character profile later and yes, they do.

    It's always nice to see real life represented in one's tv series.
    And don't worry about turning gay one day. We're not contagious. I mean, years of straight characters on my screen and I'm still gay.

    Quote Originally Posted by lopo30 View Post
    Or is it when you get to be adult your not allowed to like shows out of comic books anymore and you cant have your opinion on them ?
    You can have your opinion -- just be polite about it, that's all.
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon Horus View Post
    You can have your opinion -- just be polite about it, that's all.
    Actually, I expect the mods to put the kibosh on this whole thread or do some severe editing shortly.
    As I pointed out to GF, what any of us think about it is in violation of the "new order" because it's not directly related to what happened on the show.

    That said, the next episode
    Spoiler:
    does address hostility towards gays as Gotham city management doesn't light the bat signal after Batwoman has come out.
    I have a feeling there is going to be an in-show discussion about that... And that would be fair game under the new rules.
    Last edited by Darren; January 29th, 2020 at 02:13 PM.
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  19. #19
    Site Admin GateWorld's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Annoyed is correct. I've had to moderate several posts in this thread, and now must post this reminder to everyone about the forum's rules and recent changes.

    Under these rules, in an episode discussion such as this one you may: talk about the episode, plot and characters, writer choices, series themes, etc. Compare and contrast with other shows and characters from elsewhere in the Arrowverse. Opine. Share about why representation matters to you; or, about why you find some writing choices frustrating and what you'd like to see this show do differently.

    On the other hand, you may not: insult one another and attack another forum member's opinions. Lash out with loaded questions or judgments about another forum member's character. Complain about the new forum rules. Embrace Godwin's law to score points. Or score points at all.

    Editing posts to enforce the rules takes extra time, and we'd rather not do it. This is a courtesy to allow the rest of your posts stand, and provide only minimal interruption to the thread when someone else comes along to read it. After this warning, we'll simply delete full posts.

    Please stay on topic.

  20. #20
    General Falcon Horus's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Queer Everything Is Today! (110)

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    That said, the next episode
    Spoiler:
    does address hostility towards gays as Gotham city management doesn't light the bat signal after Batwoman has come out.
    I have a feeling there is going to be an in-show discussion about that... And that would be fair game under the new rules.
    Spoiler:
    With the dialogue in the car between the two hostages: "Dude, it's 2020."
    Last edited by Darren; January 29th, 2020 at 02:14 PM.
    Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum
    Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 8 of SG-1

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