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What Went Wrong With Stargate?(Part I)

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    #16
    Lost my post (I cried) but here I go again, wanted to address a couple points, there's good and bad for me in Noob's post (what a noob!) Cutting lots of text for convenience purposes. Not sure what FH & GF's posts were about since they got silenced but I'll try to remain civil even though I am not bound to mortal rules, being an Unas and all.

    Originally posted by NoobTau'ri View Post
    I learned that there is a possibility for a fresh reboot of the entire franchise.
    yea well they're working on it I heard (can we make this a future reference for anything related to the SG:C? )

    Giving the Tau'ri ships - There is a reason why the entire franchise is called Stargate. We shouldn't have star ships.
    Yes and no. The main reason why I loved SG so much is that it wasn't based on an evolved society / futuristic so you know they got to do with what they got. That being said...

    YES they should get a ship, at some point, and I think it wasn't premature when the Prometheus was introduced. I mean just ask yourself all those viewers watching the show for 10 years everybody in the Galaxy got ships but not us, what would the Tau'ri doing singing Akunamatata with the Tok'ra?

    NO the Tau'Ri should not have had Odyssey-Class ships with Asg beam weapons and I do believe just like you that it was just for convenience purpose of having equipment to fight the Ori. The Ori, which is an Arc I detest with a passion so I'm with you on that one. The extension of SG-1 was just for the money.

    Killing off the Asgard - We are supposed to believe that the Asgard could create hyperdrives capable of crossing galaxies in minutes and energy-matter converters, but they couldn't fix a simple genetic degradation problem.
    Thinking realistically like that is just going to ruin Sci-Fi for you man lol. SG is all about using existing legends and lore and slapping an Alien face behind it. Asgards are clearly the Greys which, we are told, abduct people to do reproductive experiments because their bodies advanced too much to procreate. Btw all that stuff is HEAVILY documented by our friend Gieorgio on History Crazy-TV (or youtube just ask SG Alisa) if you enjoy ''alternative science''.

    And honestly, sci-fi or not, I would say that consciousness transfer might be one the last technological advancements that will ever be made. It's not a transfer if it's simply making a copy the synapses and brain patterns of a person to a blank slate, like an AI, that becomes another person. Brain swap surgery or head transplants (which are becoming real) don't count either as it is not transferring your consciousnesses by a technological mean, such as the Cylons and the resurrection ship in BSG.

    Lack of interesting villains - Let's face it: the only interesting villain we ever got in Stargate was Ba'al.
    No. I wonder, perhaps it is because you've seen this show too many times now in 2019? Have you tried putting yourself back in your 90' shoes as a kid, how you felt when you first watched SG? Never watched ST much but I recall there's a race of parasitic beings (symbiotes?) but are totally not the same than Goa'ulds, I'd say that was a major item that made SG stand out, along with the Stargate. Even the movies never introduced the Snakes, Ra in the movie was introduced as an Alien but not a Goa'uld or a being infested with symbiote.

    Apophis --> An interesting megalomaniac at first with a whole story arc involving Teal'c as his Frist Prime. However, besides his involvement with Teal'c, he was just another bland System Lord: an egocentric megalomaniac with a one-dimensional personality.
    I completely disagree. Apophis was a great vilain imo, from the beginning to his redemption on Sokar's planet (which was a major plot twist back then when it was revealed it was Apophis behind the mask) and to his final demise, for the first time showing that Goa'ulds can be afraid too. I also thought it was so sad to see the poor host coming back alive after seeing a millennia of traumatizing sh*t unable to do anything about it. Imagine, being frozen like that for 1000 years!

    Anubis --:> A completely over-the-top psychopath and sadist with no other motivation besides causing as much death, suffering and destruction as possible for no other reason than to cause death, suffering and destruction.
    I take great offense to that, Anubis was totally boss.

    The mighty Anubis whom disappeared for 1000 years, thought dead, but nono! he was out there learning forbidden Ancient Knowledge and getting stronger. The smartest of the bunch, he screwed both the Ancients, the Goa'ulds and especially Oma de salada. Anubis was an unique SL, he didn't care much about people kissing his feet contrary to the others of his kind, all he wanted was power and ultimate control of the galaxy. Got to give that to the Snake he's got balls to stand up to Ancients and laugh in their faces.

    RepliCarter --> Again, one-dimensional.
    How could a replicator, a ROBOT, be any different? They are aware of their predecessor's feelings yes, but just like Cavil in BSG they think this side of themselves is weak and only the machine side needs to be embraced. They think they can be so much more than mere humans and their emotions.

    Todd--> Another wasted potential.
    Todd wasn't a wasted potential, I think he was portrayed very well. If you mean the ending, that's entirely due to the hastened cancellation of SGA. I've voiced my opinion before that for instance the flashback of his wraith swooping in for the 3 Zed-PM's before the Asurans world collapsed was wayyyyy too convenient so Atlantis could come back to Earth for the finale.

    What is he now that he's on Earth? Prisonner? Allied? Ennemy? Stargate Extinction was going to deal just with that.

    Michael --> (...) This raises a whole bunch of philosophical questions about what it means to be human, what are the limits and how consciousness interacts with desires that are potentially immoral. but instead of going down that route, they turned him into just a mad scientist bent on destroying everything out of revenge. They chose the worst possible interpretation of the character and went with it.
    Not sure why you're saying that honestly there are many scenes from the beginning of his arc to the end where Michael talks about just that, how they made him a monster on both sides, how he now finds himself rejected by Wraith and Humans alike. Just like the bullied kid in school, he comes back with a gun and shoots everybody.

    I thought he was one of the most interesting villain of SGA tbh, loved hating him. Also considering how SG shied away from every single moral dillemas to remain a family show I think this was probably the one occasion apart from SGU where the writers actually dealt with the moral consequences of Beckett's radical DNA experiments.

    Wraith Queens --> Except for Queen Death, there were no interesting Queens in SGA. They just seemed to be one-episode one-dimensional human-eating monsters that existed only to die horrible deaths at the and of said episode.
    Yea this is so true lol.

    Oberoth --> A male version of RepliCarter but even more boring as his main motivations do not even revolve around us, but rather the Lantians and his desire for revenge.
    I thought he was cold and yes super evil but contrary to every other replicator he kind of had a sarcastic edge to it, especially when he rubs it off to Weir. Again, a Cavil from BSG wanting to embrace his artificial potential. RIP Oberoth though (sorry forget his name) I think he died last year.

    Adria --> Adria is a pointless character that seemed to be an excuse to show Morena Baccarin's cleavage.
    Her beauty is not in the cleavage my friend. Many have said that for Lt. James in SGU too but in all honesty I think she is a beautiful woman... with undeniable advantages (she's super nice I heard) but a beauty all the same.
    Spoiler:
    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

    Comment


      #17
      Wall of text Pt. 2

      Originally posted by NoobTau'ri View Post
      Rodney McKay --> Sam Carter with a penis. Literally a clone of Sammy of the opposite sex with higher levels of anxiety and less physical courage.
      No, just no. You're saying ''He's exactly the same but just super different with a different personality and nobody likes him and he's super arrogant and he...''

      How's that a Carter with a penis? Also you just assumed Sam's gender, tssk tssk.

      Jon Sheppard --> A younger version of O'Neil but with none of the charm and wit of Jack. No one can be Jack O'Neil. No one. You can't beat McGyver after all.
      Nothing remotely similar in terms of character between O'Neil and Sheppard, unless perhaps their tendencies not to follow orders at times. I understand you prefer RDA though.

      Elizabeth Weir --> The female version of General Hammond. They put a woman in charge of the Atlantis Expedition to make the feminist statement that women can be in charge. Ok. But at least put a competent woman in charge. Weir was a disaster, and even most hardcore SGA fans wanted her gone.
      I think GF mentioned that already but yea... there's no comparison to make between the two imo. Weir was a very very very different type of leader than any previous commanders we had seen. And she grew on me too but I would keep my (late SG's) Woolsey in charge any day.

      Ronon Dex --> The SGA version of Teal'c. Of course, Teal'c is vastly more interesting than Ronon, who is just an angry thug bent on revenge on the Wraith.
      Ronon and Teal'c both lacked some story telling in my opinion, but the few Ronon-centric episodes where they gave him more than a few lines were great. Honestly this guy's got some actors skill, I don't recall the Epi's name but when he meets his old buddies back and finds out they are wraith worshipers, the performance he gives, how Ronon is torn apart by betrayal and sadness to see his friends become traitors, great scenes.

      If anything I'd blame the writers, Ronon filled the ''muscle'' part of the team but was still very unlike Teal'c.

      "Lost Tribe" -- Brought back the Asgard simply because everyone was pissed that they were killed off in Unending.
      That's not how I saw it and I also thought it was great to see actual evil Asgards other than that rogue scientist, this was going to be a major arc but yea cancellation. You got to admit the first time around there is no freaking way you could tell it was an Asgard hiding underneath the suit, major plot twist there as well.

      Ori --> Bigger and badder version of the Goa'uld. Actual gods, instead of just god impersonators.
      Just bad would work for me but yea.

      Priors --> Jaffa with magic sticks instead of make-belief magic sticks like the Jaffa.
      Nope, you could say the foot soldiers were like Jaffa's which was basically exactly the same thing but they had those smiting lances instead zapping people with Tesla-coils.

      Asurans --> The human-form Replicators from season 7 SG-1. Literally the same characters except with different names.
      Agreed it was redundant but at least they gave those repli a very different vibe to it so I didn't mind much.

      Aschen --> The Aschen could have been the biggest villains of all, even bigger than most System Lords.
      The *flashforwards* was a great setup for the episode and I wouldn't have it any other way. I personally enjoy their episodes less and less as time goes on, they just creep me out.

      For instance, what if Sammy and Narim fell in love? What would the Tollan Council think of one of the most important of their citizens being in a relationship with one of the leading people on Earth that belongs to a program that involves around stealing alien technologies? Such a potentially interesting story, but we never got to see it.
      Well they did fall in love but I got to remind you SG is based on a 1-episode story model with a couple two-parters.

      The early infighting among the Tok'ra about whether to betray their "gods" or not was interesting
      ?

      but then they toned it down at the end in an United front against the Ori. That made them boring to the max.
      Notice the reccurrence? Everything bad seems related to the Ori arc.

      Lucian Alliance --> Ordinary criminals. As interesting as Mafiosi in a Scorsese film. Except for their role in getting people into the Destiny to explore the far reaches of the Universe, they were completely uninteresting.
      Yep. Extremely poor choice.

      Genii --> The Genii to me were the best human villain faction in the show. Cowen was an interesting semi-villain. The problem with the Genii is that since they are stuck in the 1940's in terms of capabilities, they are not a credible threat to Earth.
      Agreed except the last part. Remember early SG-1? We were pretty much in their spot compared to the rest of the Galaxy yet we came out on top. The biggest innovations are made out of necessity and working with what you got, just like the Asgards needed *dumber* people to figure out how to get rid of the Reps.

      Satedans --> Not as interesting as the Genii, and same problem of being technologically backwards.
      They were dead when introduced? Of course they won't be interesting.

      The failure of Atlanis Expedition -- We went to Pegasus to retrieve Ancient stuff to help us fight the snakes in our own native galaxy. We found nothing of value, and made a much more dangerous enemy in the process.
      Or you could call that the failure of the MGM expedition instead, that'd be more accurate.

      Not making the Stargate program public --> Making the Stargate program public would have opened a whole new dimension to the show.
      I am honestly one of the school that believes this would've been a TERRIBLE shift for the show. I won't expand much as this has been discussed to death but I still believe the show would've lost its cachet by making it public.

      Ancient incompetence -- It is applaiing how incompetent the Ancients were. Why did they even bother trying to make the Arcturus device work?
      Yep they were dumb which also connects to the point I just made, TPTB wanted to show that extremely-advanced societies such as the Tolans or Asgards who relies on their technology too much end up slacking and getting wiped out because of arrogance and else.

      Furlings -- WTF?! I want to know if the Furlings are as cute and furry as the name suggests. I want to know, dammit. And no, they are not the smoke aliens, or the ones that build the ship from Grace
      Furlings were introduced simply because the Fifth Race sounded nicer than the Fourth Race, as far as I know it was one of the inside joke so for everybody reading this WE DON'T CARE ABOUT THE FURLINGS.
      Spoiler:
      I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

      Comment


        #18
        Just finished reading some replies above and I have to say, I agree with some of what's been said.

        SGU was a test for the 4 writers/producers (Wright, Cooper, Maulie, Malozzi): more SG-1 movies, including SGA movies would be approved, probably done and released if they could make SGU stick DESPITE their inability to properly write a TV series and despite Syfy axing SG for its original timeslot for SGU. Hence the docunmentary style storytelling being used for the third show. It was the final chance for the 4 to make everything right. Now I'm not saying the SG sucked in any of its 3 spin-offs, but there were a lot of things done wrong that were already mentioned in this thread.

        I'm not going to quote anyone since I'd probably say some stupid things. But I am going to say that the biggest mistake was MGM NOT allowing SG-1 to end when the writers wanted it ended so they could focus on Atlantis and then Universe since they would have at least 2 shows complete by that time Rush and Jack go to pick up Eli in the first SGU episode. Make "Lost City" as a movie and have SG-1 run in a series of movies during SGA. It would have saved more money for SGA and the spin-off would be done much better plus the writers/producers would be able to deliver much better versions of the SGA characters. That includes making the Wraith being evil to yeah from ep 1 to 100 and no need for Pegasus Replicators. Or bringing back Jonas for an SG-1 movie. Or actually establishing that Sammy and Jacky are lovers. The list just goes on.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by Mnikolic View Post
          NOT allowing SG-1 to end when the writers wanted it ended so they could focus on Atlantis and then Universe since they would have at least 2 shows complete by that time Rush and Jack go to pick up Eli in the first SGU episode. Make "Lost City" as a movie and have SG-1 run in a series of movies during SGA. It would have saved more money for SGA and the spin-off would be done much better plus the writers/producers would be able to deliver much better versions of the SGA characters. That includes making the Wraith being evil to yeah from ep 1 to 100 and no need for Pegasus Replicators. Or bringing back Jonas for an SG-1 movie. Or actually establishing that Sammy and Jacky are lovers. The list just goes on.
          If Sg-1 had ended on "Lost City" and Atlantis picked up where it left off the main enemy would have been the replicators and the Wraith probably wouldn't have ever existed.

          That was the original plan... to find Atlantis on Earth and have them face the replicator invasion. When the decision came to air both shows concurrently, Atlantis was moved to Pegasus and the Wraith were created as their main enemy and season 8 of SG-1 ended up condensing the replicator invasion.

          Comment


            #20
            I know that. However, it's obvious that the writers/producers were not ready to run two shows at once as SGA started using some SG-1 story elements in its early seasons. The perfect example of this is the episode "Thirty Eight Minutes". The Pegasus Galaxy was supposed to have to introduce a new enemy and danger, however, 4 episodes in - it's more of the same. They should have used this episode to establish that the Milky Way and the Pegasus gates are wordls apart from each other by establishing that the maximum time a Pegasus gate can stay open is 1 hour, while it would be 2 hours for the Atlantis gate for some XYZ reason. You know, establish some mythology around the Atlantis and Pegasus Stargates, the difference between the Pegasus and the Milky Way ones and eventually, use that as a plot or a sub-plot whenever having the team explore Atlantis or one of its devices. Have basically every ancient tech device in the city connected to the Stargate somehow so when the gate is damaged or destroeyed, Atlantis is basically rendered useless. Then have Sheppard and co. search for a replacement gate by going to a planet close by by using the Puddle Jumpers. So much story potential wasted that early on. Same with "Before I Sleep". They could have turned that episode into a multi-season character arc for Wier and use it to make the team and the entire expedition learn more about the Anicents, Antlantis and its systems every season.
            By season 4, SGA basically becomes another SG-1.

            I am going to re-watch the 3 shows soon yand I will post my own full take on what went wrong with Stargate. Basically, I'm just writing this post by quick-looking the main GW website and my own memory of the show, which has gone pretty weak and foggy.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by Mnikolic View Post
              I know that. However, it's obvious that the writers/producers were not ready to run two shows at once as SGA started using some SG-1 story elements in its early seasons.
              They were also explicitly unwilling to do it again for an SGU/SGA situation because it was basically double the work

              Comment


                #22
                Hi, first post, be gentle
                While there's no doubt that the MGM problems dealt a bad blow, I think it was also another case of Series Growth Conflict. The X-Files had the same issue. When a series goes on long, it gets split between having to satisfy old fans and growing beyond its original ways. Stargate needed to grow and change to keep up with the changing views of scifi fans, but that would cause problems with old fans,as it would tamper with the formula. SGU tried to jump this hurdle, but overdid it, losing too much of its roots without building new ones.
                You either get cancelled a beloved show, or live to become a soap opera. I think that's a nut that most series are trying to crack.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Mnikolic View Post
                  I know that. However, it's obvious that the writers/producers were not ready to run two shows at once as SGA started using some SG-1 story elements in its early seasons. The perfect example of this is the episode "Thirty Eight Minutes". The Pegasus Galaxy was supposed to have to introduce a new enemy and danger, however, 4 episodes in - it's more of the same. They should have used this episode to establish that the Milky Way and the Pegasus gates are wordls apart from each other by establishing that the maximum time a Pegasus gate can stay open is 1 hour, while it would be 2 hours for the Atlantis gate for some XYZ reason.
                  There are a number of examples where Sg-1 and Atlantis treaded the same or similar ground, not necessarily because they were both airing at the same time so much as because they span over 300 episodes. Star Trek had the same problem.

                  I don't see this as one of them, though. You're taking issue with an established mechanic and saying it should be different just for the sake of being different. Having Pegasus gates remain open for an hour does not do anything new or special or important. And it's unnecessarily confusing as now audiences have to keep track of two wildly different gate mechanics for entirely superficial reasons. This episode actually enhanced our understanding of how the gates work within the Stargate franchise. When talking about the mechanics of the gate network in general or the mechanics of something seen in Sg-1, I cite lines from this episode all the time.

                  Also, the mechanic was simply a springboard for the true purpose of the episode, which was to show their characters try to overcome a problem while confronting their differences. All of that was unique to this episode and even the way in which the 38 minute window was used was different from what we've seen in Sg-1, so I don't see how it's a good example at all.

                  Sg-1 had multiple episodes where they found themselves lacking or unable to use a DHD, requiring them to find a way to power the gate so they could dial out manually. Were they copying themselves each time? No, they were using an established problem to put their characters in new situations while requiring them to solve a common problem in unique ways. "The Torment of Tantalus," "Prisoners," and "Bad Guys" are all very different episodes even though the core problem is the same because that problem puts them in different situations each time with different conflicts to confront.

                  You know, establish some mythology around the Atlantis and Pegasus Stargates, the difference between the Pegasus and the Milky Way ones and eventually, use that as a plot or a sub-plot whenever having the team explore Atlantis or one of its devices. Have basically every ancient tech device in the city connected to the Stargate somehow so when the gate is damaged or destroeyed, Atlantis is basically rendered useless.
                  That seems contrived. Any explanation for how that works is unlikely to make much sense, and I don't see why the Ancients would want to tie all their technology into another piece of technology so that if something happens to the latter none of the former would work. They'd basically be creating their own Achilles heel.

                  Then have Sheppard and co. search for a replacement gate by going to a planet close by by using the Puddle Jumpers.
                  Do the puddle jumpers have hyperdrives in this scenario or is there a second gate somewhere in the same system? It's feasible that the Wraith would've brought and left behind a second gate during the siege, so that would work.

                  So much story potential wasted that early on. Same with "Before I Sleep". They could have turned that episode into a multi-season character arc for Wier and use it to make the team and the entire expedition learn more about the Anicents, Antlantis and its systems every season.
                  I disagree. It appropriately served as a tease by offering a glimpse into Ancient life before they left the galaxy. There needs to be a sustained mystique to the Ancients. Blowing that on a multi-episode arc in season 1 would've been a mistake and it also would have been too much of a diversion from the main multi-episode arc, which was the coming of the Wraith.

                  What I think they did wrong is in not going back to the Ancients enough in later seasons. One of my favorite things about the early seasons of Sg-1 was the Asgard because they were such a mystery. I looked forward to every episode, which were spread out quite a bit. They were teased in season 1 and then we were left hanging until season 2 when we got a big reveal. That was then followed by another tease at the end of "Fifth Race" and from there we got a steady but still slow rollout of Asgard episodes that revealed more about them and their culture.

                  Finding (or least learning about) the Ancients was a foundational mystery of SGA. "Before I Sleep" was a good introduction and meeting the crew of the Aurora in season 2 was a nice tease that there was more to come. After that there were missed opportunities.

                  A prolonged multi-episode arc would have worked best with the crew of the Tria. Instead they were just a plot device to set up their story about having to take back the city from the Asurans and they were killed off-screen. Forcing the characters to live and work under the Ancients would've made for an interesting few episodes and, failing that, it would've been nice to know that some of the Ancients survived the Asuran attack and had given up trying to control Atlantis because they didn't have the manpower for it and didn't want to stay and live with the expedition but were out there and could be relied on to set up future episodes.

                  Same with the Asurans. They were a window into the Ancient's past, but all we really got was a flashback of Ancient ships bombarding Asuras and a brief creation scene. (The other "big" glimpse into the past was through the space whales and that did nothing other than show us extras in white moving around the city's sets.)
                  Last edited by Xaeden; 24 April 2020, 03:38 PM.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                    There needs to be a sustained mystique to the Ancients
                    I think we saw too much of the Ancients and they kinda stopped making sense a long time ago. The fundamental problem is that SG1's Ancients and SGA's ancients are very, very different. In SG1 they were a lost race that had vast and impossibly powerful tech and knowledge. Either acting as a source of mcguffins or plots. We don't know much about them other than that they are a legendary race with impossibly competent abilities..

                    But in SGA, they are a source of trouble and fallible. They died out not because of an external force they couldn't overcome, but through incompetence. Because we keep seeing these huge, powerful technologies that just wipe the floor with the Wraith, yet the Wraith don't really show how they could've beaten that. Suddenly, it seems like the Ancients were incompetent. Things like the Tumor Machine are just hilarious while things like Minidrones make me wonder what problem they were even solving. Ships like the Aurora make me wonder how they even lost. And the more and more tech and plot gets assigned to them, the more the Ancients become a paradoxical race of impossibly competent and powerful and yet impossibly incompetent and stupid.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by thekillman View Post
                      Because we keep seeing these huge, powerful technologies that just wipe the floor with the Wraith, yet the Wraith don't really show how they could've beaten that. Suddenly, it seems like the Ancients were incompetent. Things like the Tumor Machine are just hilarious while things like Minidrones make me wonder what problem they were even solving.
                      This is a large part of why I think it would've helped to see more of the Ancients, particularly in a historical context.

                      The Ancients without question had a major flaw, which is that they lacked military experience. They had advanced to such a point where they just let their technology deal with threats while they sat comfortably in their shielded installations, so they didn't know how to fight a war with an enemy who could drain their resources by sending seemingly endless numbers against them. As a result, they resorted to trying to invent various kill all solutions and, at one point, they tried to negotiate a peace with the Wraith. In doing the latter, they fell into a trap that cost them their most powerful warships.

                      I think this is important commentary on the perils that an advanced civilization should strive to avoid, but a lot of it is told or shown secondhand. To connect with a way of thinking that has led to one's own demise, it helps to be able see the person in action. The Asgard are also a commentary on what can go wrong for an advanced race, but Thor was able to reflect on his peope's limitations, talk about how those limitations got them into the situation they were in, and ask for help. Even though his dialogue was delivered in a fairly wooden manner by a puppet, a lot of us connect with and feel bad for the Asgard.

                      Now imagine if we saw the Ancients, not just on their last day, but at various points in the war and there was someone there who could articulate how they went wrong while wishing there was time to change things.

                      Ships like the Aurora make me wonder how they even lost. And the more and more tech and plot gets assigned to them, the more the Ancients become a paradoxical race of impossibly competent and powerful and yet impossibly incompetent and stupid.
                      The core point from above applies here. I personally have no difficulty picturing how they lost. The problem is that this is something that needs to be extrapolated from lines of dialogue.

                      For example, I've noticed when talking to people that there are a good number who don't understand that the Wraith had significantly larger numbers when the Ancients were around than they do now. In the beginning, to know this you had to realize that what we were told described a situation where they overfed on humans to such a degree that they likely resorted to infighting until their population shrunk significantly. To avoid extinction, they created a plan to sleep for hundreds of years at a time while the human population rebounded some. This is not overtly explained per say, but it is the obvious conclusion of what we were told.

                      A less obvious conclusion takes 5 seasons to get to and it comes from an episode that some consider a filler. I'm referring to season 5's "The Seed." Learning that the Wraith could grow a ship on any planet as long as they had a sufficient power source available was a game changer. It meant that, during the war, the Wraith could use the gate network to grow one or a small number of ships on hundreds of planets at once. If the Ancients targeted one of their growing sites, it wouldn't have put a dent into the Wraith's overall production. Conversely, if the Wraith take out an Ancient shipyard that would set the Ancients back months, maybe years. Not only would they lose all of their in-production ships and have to start over, but all the mining and transport work would have been wasted and have to be replicated. Additionally, the shipyard itself would have to be rebuild from scratch somewhere else before they could even begin to start producing more ships for the war effort.

                      I think sometimes viewers expect to be hand-held too much and should work on being able to analyze what they're being told a bit more, so not everything needs to be shown. In this case, though, I think it would be both worthwhile and powerful to actually see the Ancients struggling to try to fend off an enemy with seemingly endless numbers while the Ancients struggled in the face of dwindling resources that they couldn't build back up fast enough.

                      The true power of the Wraith is their ability to swarm and quite literally infest the galaxy like the bugs they are, but they can only do that when their food source is in abundance. Flashbacks like the ones I suggested would not only humanize the Ancients, they would also paint a more intimidating Wraith as we would then see what they were capable of at their peak and worry if there was a way they could get back there during the run of the series.

                      When too much of the past is told in bits and bytes, viewers are able to draw their own conclusions. Like dismissing the Ancients as nothing but arrogant screw ups and the Wraith as eternally underwhelming. A firsthand look at life during the war could have convinced people that there's more there.
                      Last edited by Xaeden; 19 January 2020, 05:34 PM.

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                        #26
                        The trouble with star ships is that nasty races like the Wraith can trace here you came from and come and kill you. My theory is that the gates make our appearance on alien planets somewhat anonymous. hey may out and out fear Humanity and it's so called devil. Their directive should be not telling any alien that we are Human. I know the cats out of the bag with the G'ould and all but they have a mythology all their own. I just don't believe in prosthetics and greys. Aliens that are not in some way Humans are a hard sell.
                        The story is taking ordinary people over here and putting them in extraordinary situations over there where the whole story should take place.

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                          #27
                          Generally, aliens can't track Earth ships.

                          The Ori were briefly able to track the Odyssey in "Unending," but Carter was able to put an end to that by discovering that it was the Asgard core that was giving them away.

                          In "The Pegasus Project" the Wraith appeared when the Daedalus was trying to establish a connection with the supergate near the black hole. I have heard someone say that this is a sign that they can track ships, but given how slow Wraith hyperdrives are that Hive was likely nearby already and detected the naquadah explosions. After convincing the Wraith that Atlantis was destroyed in the season 2 premiere, Atlantis' location remained a secret to every Wraith save Todd through the finale despite regular visits from Earth ships.

                          The Ancients had the ability to track Wraith ships and the Tok'ra used their spy network to covertly develop a system to track Goa'uld motherships, so it is possible to track ships, but it's really at the writers' discretion.

                          Ship travel can be as annoymous or public as the plot demands. Same with Stargate travel. If the writers wanted to, they could introduce an alien race who, for example, deployed satellites in orbit of some, most, or all Stargate worlds, which have been designed to track/detect certain travelers. In fact, they've done that already: this is how the Travelers captured Sheppard.

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                            #28
                            Isn't it just Star Trek without the ship? I mean that as a good thing. Bases of operations, like embassys are necessary on the other side but should be pretty much untenable IMO.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Xaeden View Post

                              I think sometimes viewers expect to be hand-held too much and should work on being able to analyze what they're being told a bit more, so not everything needs to be shown. In this case, though, I think it would be both worthwhile and powerful to actually see the Ancients struggling to try to fend off an enemy with seemingly endless numbers while the Ancients struggled in the face of dwindling resources that they couldn't build back up fast enough.
                              Oh yea, i recall people wanting an explanation for SGU's "time" despite the outcome being almost entirely spelled out.

                              But for me, it's incredibly unsatisfying that we can only deduce why the Ancients lost from a few lines and meta-analysis when the story as-show and as-told makes the ancients losing an impossible thing.

                              A thing i think you missed is that we seem to think of the Ancients as kinda like the Star Wars Empire of a pan-galactic hyperadvanced hyperdeveloped superrace. But if you count the episodes with what we actually find, it's mostly just outposts and research labs. There's *one* planet (The planet with Arcturus from "trinity") with a city that dates to Ancient times, *One* planet with another City ship. Everything else is just "flavor lab of the week". Basically the Lanteans were less "pan-galactic empire" and more "bunch of survivors trying hard to ascend and not really bothering with the rest since they won't stick around".

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by thekillman View Post
                                A thing i think you missed is that we seem to think of the Ancients as kinda like the Star Wars Empire of a pan-galactic hyperadvanced hyperdeveloped superrace. But if you count the episodes with what we actually find, it's mostly just outposts and research labs. There's *one* planet (The planet with Arcturus from "trinity") with a city that dates to Ancient times, *One* planet with another City ship. Everything else is just "flavor lab of the week". Basically the Lanteans were less "pan-galactic empire" and more "bunch of survivors trying hard to ascend and not really bothering with the rest since they won't stick around".
                                You're basing this analysis on what survived the war and the aftermath, though. They fought the Wraith for a hundred years, losing ground along the way until only Atlantis and a few holdouts remained. After that it's likely the Wraith destroyed additional Ancient targets, leaving behind only the ones they couldn't reach, didn't know about, or was deemed not worth the effort because they fought back. I have no idea how to begin to gauge what the full scale of the Ancient civilization was based on these limited data points.

                                That said, that two city-ships survived intact is impressive in and of itself and to me is an indication that there many more that didn't make it. It's reasonable that the odd outpost would have escaped the Wraith's notice or that a lab hosting a Wraith fleet killing super weapon would survive to modern day, but cities are high value targets, so I'm surprised that any survived.

                                I don't think that the Ancient population in the Pegasus galaxy reached the heights that it did in the Milky Way because they devoted 1,000 worlds to the second evolution of their form. I've even suggested before that this might have been because they knew their time on the lower planes was limited and were attempting to cultivate humans to become their successors. I have not, however, seen anything to suggest that the Ancients lacked an extensive galaxy-wide civilization at their peak.
                                Last edited by Xaeden; 17 July 2019, 06:10 AM.

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