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    Ra Arriving On Earth

    It was a discussion I saw on Facebook but thought I'd open up here too. So in the movie Ra is kicked off of Earth 10,000 years ago based on the carbon dating of the cover-stones that were found with the 'Gate.

    In the show's continuity, this was changed to 5,000 years ago based on when SG-1 goes back in time in Mobius. Can anyone think of further examples of this date changing in the show's timeline?
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    Stargate Destiny - Coming Again Soon

    #2
    Forgive me, it's been a while since I watched the film, but didn't it say that Ra arrived on Earth 10,000 years ago? I don't recall it specifying that's when the uprising happened (but again, it's been a while so I could be forgetting).

    If that's the case, then there's nothing contradictory in the movie having him arrive in 8000 BC, and then the show having the uprising happen in 3000 BC; just means that he ruled here for 5000 years.
    "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

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      #3
      Yes, Ra arrived circa 8,000 BC (10,000 years ago) and the rebellion occurred circa 2,995 BC (5,000 years ago).

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        #4
        The time gap is so big... Centuries and milleniums... Don't matter anymore. There would be plenty of stories to tell when he has arrived, how the different human people were transported to the other planets, how the Systemlords were created, what happened with the Four Great Race Alliance, if Ra's host was a Vanir or an Asgard, when were Merlin and the Roundtable active etc. It is a shame that nothing happens in the Stargate franchise, because even this chapter of the timeline could be interesting.
        "I was hoping for another day. Looks like we just got a whole lot more than that. Let's not waste it."

        "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment."

        "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if we are to be saved at all."

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by DigiFluid View Post
          If that's the case, then there's nothing contradictory in the movie having him arrive in 8000 BC, and then the show having the uprising happen in 3000 BC; just means that he ruled here for 5000 years.
          With the cover-stones being dated 10,000 years old in the movie the implication is that the 'Gate was buried 10,000 years ago which is when the rebellion would have happened. At least, that's my take on it.
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          Stargate Destiny - Coming Again Soon

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            #6
            Originally posted by Elite Anubis Guard View Post
            With the cover-stones being dated 10,000 years old in the movie the implication is that the 'Gate was buried 10,000 years ago which is when the rebellion would have happened. At least, that's my take on it.
            Although logical, the the film opens with the text, "North African Desert, 8000 B.C." We then see Ra's arrival, so it's not clear why the coverstone was also dated to 10,000 years.

            It could've been made by Ra when he arrived and then used as a coverstone by the members of the rebellion or the rebellion could've happened within decades or hundreds of years of Ra's arrival.

            In the show's continuity, this was changed to 5,000 years ago based on when SG-1 goes back in time in Mobius. Can anyone think of further examples of this date changing in the show's timeline?
            In the TV show continuity, the writers used 10,000 years ago as the point in time when the Ancients came back to Earth. They helped jump start human civilization and then disappeared into the human gene pool, ascended, or left through the Stargate. No mention was ever made of them encountering the Goa'uld, so the Goa'uld either arrived on Earth much later or just missed the Ancients.

            The idea that Egyptian civilization goes back 10,000 years is an obsession of Emmerich's (it's an old, long dunked myth that he has repurposed in more than one of his films). That the Ancients were involved in the early civilization building of humans and the Goa'uld arrived much later fits better. Mind you, Sg-1 never confirmed that Ra arrived later, but they never reaffirmed movie's 10,000 year claim either.

            They did, though, date one off-world human civilization at over 10,000 years:

            DANIEL
            Harlan, how long have you been on your own?

            HARLAN

            Eh, now, let me see, Wallas was the last one to go. I miss him. But, you all remind me a little of Wallas. Eh, except for you, of course, you are a female.
            (Harlan turns from Carter to Teal'c.)
            And you are…whatever you are.
            (Teal'c and O'Neill glance at each other.)
            Hubald, he was the creator of all this, but he died very early…too early…Many secrets with him, so long ago.

            O'NEILL
            How long, exactly?

            HARLAN
            Eh, exactly? Ninety-nine million, two hundred and seven thousand of your hours.

            O'NEILL
            Well, that's 11,000 years.


            That's from "Tin Man," so you can chalk up to a season 1 thing that they later decided to pretend never happened. If you want to explain it, the easiest way to do so is to say their ancestors were taken from Earth by aliens other than the Goa'uld.

            To the first option, the writers don't have the best track record with those early season dates. For example, in "Fire and Water," Nem's mate went to Babylon "four thousand years ago" to fight the Goa'uld, a full thousand years after the rebellion.

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              #7
              Originally posted by Elite Anubis Guard View Post
              With the cover-stones being dated 10,000 years old in the movie the implication is that the 'Gate was buried 10,000 years ago which is when the rebellion would have happened. At least, that's my take on it.
              True, though that could be handwaved away as an estimate. A lot of early Egyptian (Old Kingdom and earlier) is shrouded in mystery simply because it was so long ago that much of it is simply lost to the mists of time.


              Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
              In the TV show continuity, the writers used 10,000 years ago as the point in time when the Ancients came back to Earth. They helped jump start human civilization and then disappeared into the human gene pool, ascended, or left through the Stargate. No mention was ever made of them encountering the Goa'uld, so the Goa'uld either arrived on Earth much later or just missed the Ancients.
              I actually really like this weird convergence of dates. In my headcanon it makes a really nice, tragic dovetailing of events--Lanteans returning to MW only to find that their homeworld is ruled by a brutal feudal society that is so powerful that they, as refugees, are largely powerless to do anything against. So instead, they scatter--some learning to ascend, some hiding out on Earth and being the origin of Buddhist myths, others like Merlin in denial and carrying on with tech experiments like nothing has happened, undoubtedly a large number simply dying out in exile in their ancestral (galactic) lands.

              A tragic epilogue to the fall of the Lantean people.
              "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

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                #8
                I don't know why are you so surprised, when the writers have even used millions (!) of years at the beginning of Atlantis. I am sure they wanted to write thousands of years. Just imagine... Has Atlantis flown so slowly to the Pegasus galaxy? Or have they built their colonies for so long? Because when they have discovered the Wraith according to the Ancient hologram then the war has escalated really quickly. But no galactic war will last for millions of years...

                I don't remember the exact number, but the events of Moebius has happened around 2000 BC. So I am guessing the gate must have been buried since that for 4 thousand years. I believe we should accept this date as canon instead of the Stargate movie. But this is only the end the rule of Ra on Earth, so he and his dynasty could have been here for hundreds or thousands of years. Even Omoroca has had her fight a long time ago on Earth.

                That is the reason I have said we should know what has happened with the Ancients between 8000BC until the Roman period. Even Egeria (the Tok'ra Queen) was named after a Roman goddess. Janus had mythological reference. But how? Has the Goa'uld / Ancients visited us later? When has the Asgard kidnapped people? How has Sokar, Morrigan and other Celtic Goa'ulds have got medieval societies? When has Merlin returned to Earth? So these events must have happened after the rebellion of Ra. When has the Giant Aliens (Chrystal Skull people) have come to Earth by the skulls to teach the Mayan? These events must be placed on the timeline too.
                "I was hoping for another day. Looks like we just got a whole lot more than that. Let's not waste it."

                "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment."

                "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if we are to be saved at all."

                Comment


                  #9
                  I think we should keep in mind also that these dates are all approximate. If an episode aired in 1998 says something happened "three thousand years ago," that doesn't mean the event literally happened in 1002 BC, it just means it happened around 1000 BC.
                  "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

                  Comment


                    #10
                    SG-1 9x20 Camelot
                    ANTONIUS
                    Welcome to Camelot. Past and future home of King Arthur and his Round Table.

                    CARTER
                    Sorry, future home?

                    MEURIK
                    I assume you know the history of the Battle of Camlann.

                    DANIEL
                    Of course, where Arthur was mortally wounded by Mordred.

                    MEURIK

                    (incredulous, then chuckling)
                    Arthur… mortally wounded. Please.

                    ANTONIUS
                    Arthur defeated Mordred at the Battle of Camlann. After which, he and his fellow knights set off to find the Sangreal.

                    DANIEL
                    That's the Holy Grail.

                    ANTONIUS
                    That was long ago, but we know in our hearts that one day, he will return to us.
                    http://www.stargate-sg1-solutions.co...%22_Transcript
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camlann

                    * * *

                    DANIEL
                    While on PX1-767, we got the names of three planets: Castiana, Sahal, and Vagonbrei. Three possible destinations for Arthur and his knights in their quest for the Holy Grail, what we know to be Merlin's weapon. Unfortunately, what we didn't get were any corresponding gate addresses, and the process of going through that library page by page looking for clues could have potentially taken years. So, I knew we were going to have to narrow the search parameters a little. That's when it hit me: Sir Gawain.

                    [Vala opens a book to marked page and hands it to Daniel with a smile. He takes it and holds it to show the others an illustration.]

                    MITCHELL
                    Wasn't he one of the Knights who says "Ni"?

                    DANIEL
                    He was a Knight of the Round Table. In one of his earliest incarnations, an old Welsh tale, he went on a quest to help rescue a lost love. The legend says that Sir Gawain, AKA Gwalchmei, visited several lands over the course of his adventure, including a place called Gwlad Gan Brenhinol Gwir, which is Welsh for "Land of Royal Truth". Translate that into Ancient, and you get "Verus Gen Bree"—Vagonbrei.

                    CARTER
                    So, how does that get us a gate address?

                    [While Daniel begins to speak, Vala opens another old book to a marked page and passes it over to him.]

                    DANIEL
                    Uh, it doesn't. But it did give me something very specific to look for in Merlin's library, namely references to Gawain. Now, based on this information, I started scanning through the titles, and I found this. Now, the entire volume is dedicated to Gawain's adventures and includes several very interesting illustrations, including a depiction of a sword he once carried. Note the symbols engraved on the blade.
                    http://www.stargate-sg1-solutions.co...%22_Transcript

                    * * *

                    SG-1 10x03 The Pegasus Project
                    MORGAN LE FAY
                    Moros was the last High Councilor of Atlantis.

                    VALA
                    Moros. Well, apart from the funny hat, he's the spitting image of Merlin, isn't he?

                    DANIEL
                    See, in Arthur's time, that was Myrrdin. You see how a word can change over the centuries.

                    VALA
                    I know where you're going. You think the Merlin or Myrrdin or whatever his name was, came back to Atlantis at some stage and hid these names here as clues for us to find.
                    http://www.stargate-sg1-solutions.co...%22_Transcript

                    * * *

                    Actually I was still looking for a quote where they connected Merlin to a battle and I believe they have mentioned some date in the conversation. I will try to find it. Maybe it was in the Quest.
                    "I was hoping for another day. Looks like we just got a whole lot more than that. Let's not waste it."

                    "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment."

                    "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if we are to be saved at all."

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Actually it was in the SG-1 9x01 Avalon part 1:

                      MERLIN HOLOGRAM
                      Welcome, ye knights of the round table, men of honor, followers of the path of righteousness. Only those with wealth of knowledge and truth of spirit shall be given access to the underworld, the storehouse of riches of Ambrosius Aurelianus. Prove ye worthy, and all shall be revealed.

                      [Mitchell has moved around the stone to get a closer look at the hologram. When the message is finished, the hologram disappears, and Mitchell runs his foot over the dirt where the image stood. Vala's face lit up at the hologram's mention of riches. Teal'c moves away from Vala and begins to explore more of the cave. Daniel meanwhile, is thinking about the message.]

                      DANIEL

                      (awed)
                      That's incredible. Certain scholars have speculated that Ambrosius and Arthur were one and the same, but that would have made him 74 years old at the Battle of Mount Badon. It's actually quite fascinating. See, Ambrosius was the son of the Emperor Constantine…
                      http://www.stargate-sg1-solutions.co...%22_Transcript

                      The Battle of Badon (Latin: obsessio[nis] Badonici montis, "Blockade/siege of the Badonic Hill", Bellum in monte Badonis, "Battle on Badon Hill", Bellum Badonis, "Battle of Badon"; Old Welsh: Badon, Middle Welsh: Gweith Vadon, "Battle of Badon", Welsh: Brwydr Mynydd Baddon, "Battle of Badon Mount/Hill") was a battle thought to have occurred between Celtic Britons and Anglo-Saxons in the late 5th or early 6th century.[1] It was credited as a major victory for the Britons, stopping the encroachment of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms for a period.
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badon
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosius_Aurelianus
                      "I was hoping for another day. Looks like we just got a whole lot more than that. Let's not waste it."

                      "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment."

                      "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if we are to be saved at all."

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Platschu View Post
                        I don't know why are you so surprised, when the writers have even used millions (!) of years at the beginning of Atlantis. I am sure they wanted to write thousands of years.
                        The 5-10 million figure for when Atlantis left Earth, while an unbelievably vast amount of time, was necessary in order to explain how humans were the second evolution of their form as the Dakara device was activated around the same time that Atlantis left.

                        It's one of their least logical in-show reasons for why they had actors play inter-stellar human characters (usually the show is good at these budget saving explanations), but the only way to avoid the millions year old civilization bit would've been to make the Ancients a truly alien species or to have them be humans who time traveled into the past.

                        Just imagine... Has Atlantis flown so slowly to the Pegasus galaxy? Or have they built their colonies for so long? Because when they have discovered the Wraith according to the Ancient hologram then the war has escalated really quickly. But no galactic war will last for millions of years...
                        The war with the Wraith lasted a hundred years, so it likely wasn't too much prior to 10,000 years ago that the Ancients first encountered the Wraith. Before that, yes, they spent their time rebuilding a galaxy-wide civilization in Pegasus, seeding humans on various worlds, and then living in their scientific utopia. They also apparently spent at least 40-45 million years in the Milky Way before the plague per "Frozen."

                        I don't remember the exact number, but the events of Moebius has happened around 2000 BC. So I am guessing the gate must have been buried since that for 4 thousand years. I believe we should accept this date as canon instead of the Stargate movie. But this is only the end the rule of Ra on Earth, so he and his dynasty could have been here for hundreds or thousands of years. Even Omoroca has had her fight a long time ago on Earth.
                        It was 5,000 years ago...

                        JACKSON: Now remember, Jack, three thousand BC. When Sam hooks up the power to the time device, think about that date and nothing else.

                        ...

                        CARTER: Earth was in a different orbit around the sun five thousand years ago. I think we did it.

                        ...

                        CARTER: Uh, sorry, I-I kinda meant what year.

                        O'NEILL: Well, you and Daniel said there was some kind of a failed rebellion.

                        CARTER: In 2995 BC.


                        That one is fairly definitive as they needed to go back within a few year time frame prior to the rebellion. The "Fire and Water" figure of 4,000 years ago may be more of an estimate, but it's likely a matter of rounding more than being off by a whole thousand years. Plus, Babylon wasn't around 5,000 years ago, so I would chalk this one up to a retcon.

                        That is the reason I have said we should know what has happened with the Ancients between 8000BC until the Roman period. Even Egeria (the Tok'ra Queen) was named after a Roman goddess. Janus had mythological reference. But how? Has the Goa'uld / Ancients visited us later?
                        Some Goa'uld remained on Earth after Ra left. It's plausible there were more than just the ones we know about. Maybe a couple even found a way to get off-world and reclaimed a position in the hierarchy.

                        I'd also guess there were more Ancients on Earth at times that we're not aware of. This could be because one or more descended during Roman times or were in stasis (they would've lived for a bit if they came out of it 8,000 years ago) or the ones who left through the Stargate 10,000 years ago returned for a visit. Janus, for example, could've easily stopped by Earth while time traveling or ~2,600 years ago was when he left the jumper for good and after that he settled on Earth in time to influence the birth of Latin (we don't currently know when he last used the jumper or what happened to him).

                        When has the Asgard kidnapped people? How has Sokar, Morrigan and other Celtic Goa'ulds have got medieval societies? When has Merlin returned to Earth?
                        Sokar at some point learned that the Beta gate was active again and used it to take medieval people offworld to serve as slaves. It's possible that some of the slaves he took from Earth at that time came to be controlled by Morrigan and others who then took on figures from Celtic mythology to better control them. It makes sense that minor Goa'uld might've come to power by stealing slaves from Sokar, being given them because they were his underlings, or perhaps purchasing them from him within the last ~1,500 years.

                        Similarly, Sokar may easily have not been the only Goa'uld to use the Beta gate to obtain slaves. Once the gate was unburied again, the only thing keeping Goa'uld from gating to Earth was apathy. Many of the more established Goa'uld likely didn't care to try Earth's address again after thousands of years passed because Earth had no value other than as a source of slaves and the established Goa'uld likely had all the slaves they needed.* Lesser Goa'uld who were trying to build an empire or a system lord who, for whatever reason, lost a significant chunk of their slave population (as may have happened to Sokar) are a different matter.

                        As for Merlin, I wouldn't be surprised if he's the reason why Sokar was able to gate to Earth again. We know the Beta gate was buried in ice 5,000 years ago because otherwise Ra and company wouldn't have been cut off by the rebellion. Earlier in the series it was suggested that the shifting of the ice unburied the gate at some point after the rebellion, allowing Sokar to do his thing. We later learned, however, that Merlin was on Earth and using the Beta gate (unless he had a third gate we don't know about) around 1,500 years ago, so it's plausible that he opened the door for Sokar.

                        *Although, Apophis did at some point try and the only reason he didn't follow-up was because his scouts didn't report back (Teal'c once said the Goa'uld do that; send scouts and deem a planet unsafe if they don't hear from them). Presumably, the DHD had enough energy to allow Sokar to send people back and forth and Apophis tried the address at some point down the road when it lacked the juice required to dial out, so he likely missed his window.
                        Last edited by Xaeden; 27 June 2019, 11:13 AM.

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                          #13
                          Thanks for the detailed answer. I am sure there are still plenty of rooms in the history of Stargate on Earth.
                          "I was hoping for another day. Looks like we just got a whole lot more than that. Let's not waste it."

                          "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment."

                          "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if we are to be saved at all."

                          Comment

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