Stargate: Phoenix ~ Tabletop RPG by Wyvern Gaming

[Platschu]

I have played mostly our Hungarian RPG (M.A.G.U.S.), what is basically a 2D10 system. I have been Dungeon Master, because it was more fun for me when you try to tell a story for 3-4-5 people. But it also depends on the priorities of the players. We have been just teenager young men at that time, so some players wanted to find a partner (to express it nicely....), some of them wanted to kill everyone. And then it is the DM's job to maintain the balance between the NPCs and the players, order vs. chaos, fighting vs. storytelling. It was pure fun most of the time. But even me or my classmates were not "professional" players, so sometimes we have made mistakes too. Party attacks, individual character moments has taken time from others, unnecessary violence etc. It is hard to balance out an adventure or mission to be not too easy, not too hard, not too straightforward, but not too overcomplicated. And sometimes even dice rolls have really caused some unexpected events for both side. Probably now we would play a bit more serious. Once I had a movie idea about RPG gamers, who they sit down after 10-20 years to play together, but they have also grownup much more as persons and then the movie would focus on their change while they are playing.

Lore for me is important. I really appreciate such things when a world is really planned well. Such things happen mostly in novels. When every tiny details are there (the seasons, the name of the months, the people, the enemies, the alliances, the politicial situation, the religious side etc.), but most of the players won't use this informations necessarily while they are playing with a character. So it is amazing when a writer can create a consistent and logical world, but not every readers / players will interact the same way how it was expected. As I have written above, some players are single minded and basically to kill everyone.

While other players who I have observed really developed the speech tone, the background, the motivations, the weakness and strength of their own character and they literally stayed in the role at the table as amateur actors. And I really like such type of role playing when somebody really acts his/her character.

Sometimes it has also caused problems that the whole party has learned such informations what only one character should know. We have tried to make it more realistic, so if there were key informations then the DM and the player has gone out to discuss it quickly.

I have also loved to prepare some studd for my players. Like an ancient pergamen which was a worn out or torn paper. Or I have used Fighting Fantasy illustrations in my own story. Some players have got zero imaginations and they couldn't understand the concept of the whole RPG.

[Gatefan1976]

I have played mostly our Hungarian RPG (M.A.G.U.S.), what is basically a 2D10 system. I have been Dungeon Master, because it was more fun for me when you try to tell a story for 3-4-5 people. But it also depends on the priorities of the players.

This is absolutely correct. The DM creates the "adventure", the Players create the "Protagonists" and the SYSTEM provides the way in which both those interact. That's why I said both (or all three really) are important.

We have been just teenager young men at that time, so some players wanted to find a partner (to express it nicely....), some of them wanted to kill everyone. And then it is the DM's job to maintain the balance between the NPCs and the players, order vs. chaos, fighting vs. storytelling.

Yes, that is the DM's job, but the DM simply cannot control the actions of the PLAYERS (as opposed to characters). Some people are just twinks who want to roll dice and kill things, some people just want to create conflict and that's not the fault of the DM, it's a PLAYER who might just need to be kicked out of the group for being intentionally disruptive.
That's ALSO the DM's job.

It was pure fun most of the time. But even me or my classmates were not "professional" players, so sometimes we have made mistakes too. Party attacks, individual character moments has taken time from others, unnecessary violence etc. It is hard to balance out an adventure or mission to be not too easy, not too hard, not too straightforward, but not too overcomplicated.

Yes, but that's the role you take on as a DM. You are essentially "playing God", and it's not an easy one to do. You want to tell a story, but you want your mates to take part in that story. If you shoe-horn them into something, all you have is what Nick said, collaborative fan fiction, not a RPG. If that is what you want, RPG's are not the best vehicle for them, LARPing is probably better (though, that's a HELL of a lot harder to organize than your standard RPG)

And sometimes even dice rolls have really caused some unexpected events for both side.

That is ENTIRELY the point. How do the players and DM react to these moments? A character goes down to a random event. Do they try to save them? A villain gets wiped by some good rolls (or better, tactics) from the players, does the DM get frustrated and attempt to change the outcome, or worse, punish the players for it?
It is the very randomness of the dice/cards/object an ORGANIC story as opposed to a narrative. Narratives cannot adapt, RPG's are based on adaption to the unexpected.

Probably now we would play a bit more serious. Once I had a movie idea about RPG gamers, who they sit down after 10-20 years to play together, but they have also grownup much more as persons and then the movie would focus on their change while they are playing.

I think you might be able to find some of those things on places like "geek and sundry" on Youtube, especially the eps that feature Will Wheaton and Felecia Day. (well, Will is always in it, or used to be)

Lore for me is important. I really appreciate such things when a world is really planned well. Such things happen mostly in novels. When every tiny details are there (the seasons, the name of the months, the people, the enemies, the alliances, the politicial situation, the religious side etc.),

Ok.
You can't compare a novel, or even series of novels to an RPG.
The function of a "core rulebook" is to provide the systems for character creation and a basic distillation of the setting for DM's to use as a framework to tell stories within that environment. Think about Lord of the rings. Did we ever know Gandalf was essentially a demigod in the whole series? Nope, we got that from the extended writings of Tolkien in things like the Silmarilion and Unfinished tales. That, my friend is what "splat books" are for, to extend the Lore of the world you are using. I collected damn near every splat book for 3.5 D&D because I am just as much into the Lore as you are. It's just not -practical- in a core rulebook.

but most of the players won't use this informations necessarily while they are playing with a character. So it is amazing when a writer can create a consistent and logical world, but not every readers / players will interact the same way how it was expected.

And that is the very essence of a RPG, and exactly why we use dice/cards/object.
It's the randomness, the choices the DM and Players make that make it interesting. RPG's are a simulation of life, just not your life. It's the simulation of the one you might want to be at that time. But simulations have rules.

As I have written above, some players are single minded and basically to kill everyone.

Then your issue is not the game, it's the player. If some twink just wants to kill everyone and disrupt your game, kick them the hell out of the group. They don't help you, or their fellow players and they ruin it for 5-6 other people? I'll take one less player any time.

While other players who I have observed really developed the speech tone, the background, the motivations, the weakness and strength of their own character and they literally stayed in the role at the table as amateur actors. And I really like such type of role playing when somebody really acts his/her character.

Again, quality of player. I've spent hours "goofing off" in RPG's, but only when the story was not about my character or more importantly, the group of characters were not acting togeather. When we did however, I played my character. Never forget that RPG's are a social thing, and when you get a bunch of friends together they like to catch up and chat as well as play.

Sometimes it has also caused problems that the whole party has learned such informations what only one character should know. We have tried to make it more realistic, so if there were key informations then the DM and the player has gone out to discuss it quickly.

Quite the right way to approach it, but "knowledge bleed" is inevitable when all your players have read the same "lore books".

I have also loved to prepare some studd for my players. Like an ancient pergamen which was a worn out or torn paper. Or I have used Fighting Fantasy illustrations in my own story.

You mean stuff from "out of the pit" (another dog eared book I have)
Making props is cool, and I absolutely encourage it in gaming

Some players have got zero imaginations and they couldn't understand the concept of the whole RPG.

Correct, but note the word WHOLE in your comment. RPG's are about a storyteller, characters and a way for them to interact.
Some DM's have no imagination either, they just want the players to act as they would expect them to in order to tell "their story", which one more is just fan fiction.

[Platschu]

Thanks for the long and detailed answer. I loved playing RPGs and now as I have talked about it, I miss it again. It was really fun when the party has completly done something unexpected when half of the adventure module must have been improvised. Good old times. I won't say impro story telling were also the best choice, but it was a challenge to entertain my friends. Or when they had a major party attack after an arguement... Booo.

(I had to google what "splat book" means. They are almost named after my nick... )

I have also talked about my past RPG experiences if anyone else read us as it can give a little glimpse what is all about. You and NickEast are experts anyway.

What can be a bit challenging with Stargate that all the actions happen around the gate. So it is not just go A to B on a big continent, but even the adventure can happen on different planets. Since the gate can be guarded than some action can easily happen when they arrive or when they try to leave a location. Sometimes I have felt this storytelling limitations in the tv show, but on the hand that is the reason we talk about Stargate and the writers have still managed to make it interesting. But if you would imagine a realistic galactic war, then the gates would limit the choices as the "front line" is just at the stargate if the hostile nations don't visit each other with space ships.

[Gatefan1976]

Thanks for the long and detailed answer. I loved playing RPGs and now as I have talked about it, I miss it again.

I miss it everyday I can't play. It's that level of socialization, being with a group or what if you play enough togeather becomes a family. It didn't matter to me if I was playing RPG's, or TTWG's, or CCG's, it that unique sense of community that bonds us, much like GW bonds us here. We might not always be talking about Stargate, but we are always family.

It was really fun when the party has completly done something unexpected when half of the adventure module must have been improvised. Good old times. I won't say impro story telling were also the best choice, but it was a challenge to entertain my friends.

Gaming is all about entertainment, and really, most of RPG's are Improv. The GM creates the scenario, the players react to it, then the GM reacts to the players, and so on and so forth. It's the joy of RPG's, WHERE DO WE GO NOW? There is no right or wrong answer, it's just how everything interacts.

Or when they had a major party attack after an arguement... Booo.

Yeah, douche players will be douches.

(I had to google what "splat book" means. They are almost named after my nick... )

Cool, so you understand more about what I was getting at. I'm sorry for using RPG shorthand, but it's been a habit of more than most of my life.

I have also talked about my past RPG experiences if anyone else read us as it can give a little glimpse what is all about. You and NickEast are experts anyway.

If you want stories, I've got stories. BUT I would not say I am an Expert. I have a lot of experience, true, but only an idiot thinks they know everything.

[Falcon Horus]

When you have a colleague who plays RPG's you end up having long conversations that might occasionally feel like "What in the blazes is he talking about? -- I'll just nod." ...but yesterday we talked maps and cartography.

He's like a walking, talking encyclopedia... and always ready to share his experiences.

[Gatefan1976]

When you have a colleague who plays RPG's you end up having long conversations that might occasionally feel like "What in the blazes is he talking about? -- I'll just nod." ...but yesterday we talked maps and cartography.

He's like a walking, talking encyclopedia... and always ready to share his experiences.

Well...……….
Let me geek out again
In games design, cartography is sort of a specialist skill, you want it to be organic, but sometimes you just need a single writer to do it.
There are two contesting structure's at odds. The "whole world" process where you make the entire map, mythology, lore, etc.
Then there is the "small world" process where you create a region, then expand upon it. You make the basics and then draw the map outwards from there. The lore and mythology is contained to a smaller area, but it leaves writers room to expand.

I'm personally torn between the two as both have equally good and bad consequences on a game, it's also why games have different developers, and why they seek outside advice. In fact, gaming design is most like making a TV show. Who can write, who can plot, who can act, who can manage?
Look at SG-1.
Would you want the developers in front of the camera?
No, you want the actors (players) in the lead role.
Do you want them writing the story?
Probably not either, you want the developers to do that.

Sorry for the sidetrack FH, but The point I am trying to make is, you are a knowlegable person on archchaology, and you would be just as useful to a games design team as any player, DM or world builder. SG-1 got it's authenticity by talking to the US military on several issues, but they were no "TV people".
Same goes for RPG's.
It's a joint project.

[Falcon Horus]

In fact, gaming design is most like making a TV show. Who can write, who can plot, who can act, who can manage?

Little known fact, a few years ago when I took my 3D modelling courses, we also had the game designers with us, so we got a "game design" introduction (and played Playstation games on a cinema-screen).

It's a joint project.

It is indeed.

[Gatefan1976]

So, I have been checking out the Wyvern forums and I have to say, I'm less than impressed with what the beta testers have had to say about the game (not the posters themselves). It's becoming incredibly clear that 5e is simply not the kind of system that people actually WANT for a SG RPG. 5e sucks marginally less than 4e, granted, but it still sucks. It's a cookie cutter system which is fine when you have high fantasy and magic to fix it's flaws, but you can't do that in a "realistic" setting. The choice to base this off of 5e was a chronic mistake.
This is EXACTLY why I loathe the OGL. Back in the 70's-90's, you actually had to do the work to BUILD a damn system that reflected the mood and tone of your setting, but now it's just "slap a coat of paint" on the current version of D&D, no matter if it is crap or not, or totally ill suited for purpose. I have no issues with using -elements- of the design theory behind 5e (or any other system), but no one seems to do the work beyond that, it's just little tweaks to TRY to represent mood and tone. All the while, the system ITSELF is not the right way to what you need represent mood and tone.
Everything I read just puts me more and more off this game, and I would not waste the money on it, and I've wasted money on some stinkers.

[Platschu]

I will look around if I can read other feedbacks. If they release a new version in 1-2 months, then I will check it again.

[Gatefan1976]

Links deleted at the request of another forum member.

[NickEast]

The release is postponed to 2021, and the Kickstarter campaign to fall 2020, due to the current crisis.

I did notice a couple days ago that they did updated the beta PDF last month. I took a quick peek, but it seems that they just added some more text and tweaked what was there, but nothing else changed. In fact, even more (lore) errors "sneaked" in. I'm officially done with it. Not because of the postponement, I had seen that coming and it's quite understandable. I'm done because they're not changing anything major based on the feedback given.

[Gatefan1976]

The release is postponed to 2021, and the Kickstarter campaign to fall 2020, due to the current crisis.

I did notice a couple days ago that they did updated the beta PDF last month. I took a quick peek, but it seems that they just added some more text and tweaked what was there, but nothing else changed. In fact, even more (lore) errors "sneaked" in. I'm officially done with it. Not because of the postponement, I had seen that coming and it's quite understandable. I'm done because they're not changing anything major based on the feedback given.

Did you actually think they would?
Hubris is a point in game development, which is why these days I stick to "theory"
What works best to tell your story, and 5e simply does not work for a stargate game. One is High fantasy, the other is Realistic Sci-fi. There is no cleric to heal damage, no Wizard to throw mass damage effects.
The idea's are incompatible.

[Platschu]

This step is the right solution in this mad world nowadays. At least they have got more time to work on it.

[Falcon Horus]

Ah, that's an opportunity missed... They could have used the current "lockdown" conditions as a perfect way to promote their material even more.

Who cares for Stargate in 2021... when we're doing round 2 of this lockdown fest.

[Platschu]

Who cares for Stargate in 2021...

Most of us do here just we are tired of waiting for the next Stargate chapter.

The RPG has gained a little extra time for development and testing.