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  1. #261
    First Lieutenant NickEast's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stargate: Phoenix ~ Tabletop RPG by Wyvern Gaming

    And what if no one provides feedback about the lore and the book gets released with those mistakes? It's a book. A book has more than just random letters that form words. A rulebook is more than "roll a d20". The game is the sum of its parts. If you don't provide feedback on all its parts, then you're not doing it right.

    If you are playtesting a video game, are you only going to worry about "press left to shoot", or do you also look at the story, characters, art, and design? The answer should be "yes" if you know anything about playtesting and game design.

    Again, you may have 30 years of experience with playing RPGs, but I am a trained game designer. Since they didn't say they only wanted feedback for the mechanics, I'm providing feedback based on the entire material they have released as part of the beta test. If they don't want to listen to that feedback, then it won't matter how "small" they started, they wouldn't be really good game designers to begin with.

    But as I write this, I realize we're heading back into debate territory and as I said in my previous message that started this, I'm really tired of people arguing against me, no matter whether I'm right or wrong. So, once again, I'll be taking a break from here. We'll see if I ever come back, at least to this thread. But as this cycle is repeating itself more and more and peacetime is getting shorter and shorter, I'm growing real tired of not being able to share something without it turning into another argument over who's right and who knows better. The thing is, we're not talking past each other, because I wasn't talking to you. And we don't see things from different perspectives. You see it from your perspective, I see it from every perspective.

  2. #262
    Colonel Gatefan1976's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stargate: Phoenix ~ Tabletop RPG by Wyvern Gaming

    Quote Originally Posted by NickEast View Post
    And what if no one provides feedback about the lore and the book gets released with those mistakes? It's a book. A book has more than just random letters that form words. A rulebook is more than "roll a d20". The game is the sum of its parts. If you don't provide feedback on all its parts, then you're not doing it right.

    If you are playtesting a video game, are you only going to worry about "press left to shoot", or do you also look at the story, characters, art, and design? The answer should be "yes" if you know anything about playtesting and game design.

    Again, you may have 30 years of experience with playing RPGs, but I am a trained game designer. Since they didn't say they only wanted feedback for the mechanics, I'm providing feedback based on the entire material they have released as part of the beta test. If they don't want to listen to that feedback, then it won't matter how "small" they started, they wouldn't be really good game designers to begin with.

    But as I write this, I realize we're heading back into debate territory and as I said in my previous message that started this, I'm really tired of people arguing against me, no matter whether I'm right or wrong. So, once again, I'll be taking a break from here. We'll see if I ever come back, at least to this thread. But as this cycle is repeating itself more and more and peacetime is getting shorter and shorter, I'm growing real tired of not being able to share something without it turning into another argument over who's right and who knows better. The thing is, we're not talking past each other, because I wasn't talking to you. And we don't see things from different perspectives. You see it from your perspective, I see it from every perspective.
    You are assuming I WANT an argument.
    I don't.
    I find our discussions incredibly useful, you are the other side to the discussion and it helps me understand your POV.
    All I am saying is that our experiences comes from two different, yet equally important realms in games design.
    It's not a go, a dig, an insult or an attempt to belittle your skills, it's just that we see things from different perspectives. You look to story, as you should because that is what you are talented at, I look to mechanics because that is where my talents are.
    One does not preclude the other, but they are separate skills my man.
    Don't leave on my account, our experiences are simply different and it is the very nature of those mixed experiences that can make something work far better than it could alone.
    Peace man.
    ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
    A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yet
    The truth isn't the truth

  3. #263
    First Lieutenant NickEast's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stargate: Phoenix ~ Tabletop RPG by Wyvern Gaming

    I feel that you don't understand what you're doing. From my point of view, you're looking for an argument. I merely remarked something here about an experience I had, sharing both an opinion and an objective view. But it seems I can't go anywhere without someone counter-arguing with me about anything I say, with you doing that here. It makes me feel worthless and as if my opinion doesn't matter, or that my objective view is completely wrong, no matter what you write. And this is the third time overall it's happened in a little over a week (beyond this).

    I'm hereby saying that what you're doing, no matter if you mean well, does not have the effect you think it does. This may sound harsh, but I think you should think twice before responding like that, ensuring it may not be interpreted incorrectly. It is simply the way you respond that rubs me the wrong way, and if that doesn't change, I'm afraid we can't talk to each other anymore. Simply put, this has happened two (three?) times now, and each time it has left me with a bitter taste.

    I'm not a "normal" person (that means the average normal). I'm bad at reading between the lines if they're not the same lines that I use. So things like this I take personally. And it doesn't matter whether you say you mean well, it doesn't change how you write things. I think this is the point where our personalities diverge so much that there's no way to do it right. I'm not saying either of us should shut up and leave. But I'd still rather just agree to disagree and part ways, at the very least for my sake. From many years of experience, I certainly think we won't be able to work together on anything.

    I'm really sorry, but this is where I stand...

  4. #264
    Colonel Gatefan1976's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stargate: Phoenix ~ Tabletop RPG by Wyvern Gaming

    And where I stand, is where I fall.

    I don't argue to belittle you, never think that. I "argue" to improve our own perceptions of things. I have never said you are "wrong" or that your opinion is not valid. In fact if you go back through our discussions you will see that I am trying to do the exact opposite.
    Your opinions ARE VALID, you VOICE DOES MATTER. Don't EVER think that it is not. Depression is not a good deal my man, and believe me, I know, and so do a HELL of a lot of people on this forum.

    I cannot help you "read between the lines" but it seems as if I am not blunt about things, they have to read between the lines and as you say, people may not be good at that sometimes. I have absolutely ZERO intention of hurting you, belittling you or putting you down. Thing is though, being blunt tends to evoke strong emotional responses, and I can't help that either.

    Just, bear that in mind dude. If you want to break off communication, then that's your right.
    I would miss it, but that's just my perception.
    ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
    A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yet
    The truth isn't the truth

  5. #265
    First Lieutenant NickEast's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stargate: Phoenix ~ Tabletop RPG by Wyvern Gaming

    I don't want to do anything really. And that our perspectives and opinions differ also isn't the problem. Having slept on it, I believe the issue is that our way of communication differs too much. I've seen it happen before. Our intentions may be sound, but its the way we express ourselves that's in conflict.

    I feel that the most unobtrusive and least conflicting way for us to keep being active in this thread (for example) is to not reply to each other directly, but rather just share our opinions and views as part of the ongoing discussion. At least then it won't feel so personal to me, and won't make either of us feel miserable.

    ----

    On another note, I got another reply over on the RPG forums that I found interesting. They mentioned (loosely paraphrased) that they looked through the original AEG book and concluded that, as that RPG didn't portray the SG teams as being "specialized" either (supposedly what I said in the OP), either both AEG and Wyvern must've tripped into the same pitfall or I must be wrong. Yet when I read the book myself, it mentions "Team Assignments" and "Mission Profiles", stating that each team has a specific assignment (i.e. Exploration, Diplomatic Ops, Engineering Ops, Search and Rescue, etc.) and that their assignment dictates what kind of missions (Mission Profiles) they get assigned to. For example, as per the book, a Marine Combat Unit has very little use for a civilian anthropologist, and wouldn't be sent on archaeological survey missions. That was the point I was making, as the Wyvern book says that every SG team has a cultural anthropologist or archaeologist, a scientist, and a soldier, making them a "true exploratory group". Which implies every SG team is like SG-1, which they aren't.

    (I did mention the same thing over there)

    But anyway. I've said my peace, on both topics. It's unhealthy for me to keep mulling over this. I've provided objective feedback, Wyvern can do whatever they want with it. Thanks to that last reply pointing at the AEG book, I know I'm right. And that's what I'll do in my homebrew RPG.

  6. #266
    First Lieutenant NickEast's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stargate: Phoenix ~ Tabletop RPG by Wyvern Gaming

    Since for now it's a simple question, I'm wondering, what would people think would be a suitable "default" date for an RPG? The default date determines the context of how the text is written, and what information is available in terms of "past" and "present", and what hasn't happened yet. Star Trek Adventures for example uses 2371, the year that VOY started and just before the Dominion War began, as well as when Generations took place. The reasoning being that it's the last major period before a lot changes in the Star Trek universe, the quiet before the storm so to say.

    I was thinking the following:

    1. Set during SG-1 but before Atlantis, to "start small".
    2. Set before the end of SG-1 and includes Atlantis.
    3. Set after SG-1, during Atlantis, but before SGU.
    4. Set after all of the series, to have a more-or-less clean slate.

    In any case, there is a potential for an optional "default" campaign setting and a basis for adventure modules if others don't want to create their own campaigns. The default date simply influences in what context both the lore and the rules are written, and how elaborate the campaign setting could be.

    Once I've got more work under my belt, I'll create a proper thread in Stargate Fandom subforum to discuss more.

  7. #267
    Teal'c Platschu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stargate: Phoenix ~ Tabletop RPG by Wyvern Gaming

    Since the multiverse is introduced I consider every merchandise products as an alternate reality. So we have "seen" the main timeline, but all the races of the Stargate : Infinity can exists somewhere. The events of the Catherine movie, the SG novels, the SG audibooks, SG comics, the unfinished SG computer games or in this case the existing and future RPG books could have happened in an other timeline. And even fan fictions belong here as well.

    Who knows? Maybe the SGC has fallen and the Phoenix base has risen. Maybe Ra has won at Abydos. Maybe Sam and Jack have ended up in one reality, maybe they killed each other after a few years of marriage. Maybe the Wraith has overrun the Milky Way. Maybe Anubis has conquered Earth over Antartica. Anything can happen, so even every alternate reality can be even a new setting. And if you mix it with past, present and future then I am sure you can make place where different franchise elements can co-exists peacefully without causing a major unrest in the fandom.

    So I don't know what was the lore question in the first place as I am guessing you are not allowed to talk about it, but this is just a tv show. Even a 20 years old tv show. I also hate plot holes or if they don't consider to follow the canon, but it is not the end of the world if they use a little creative freedom. Let it be peace, guys!
    "I was hoping for another day. Looks like we just got a whole lot more than that. Let's not waste it."

    "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment."

    "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if we are to be saved at all."


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  8. #268
    General Falcon Horus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stargate: Phoenix ~ Tabletop RPG by Wyvern Gaming

    I'm biased towards liking Atlantis over SG-1, so I would like a default date to include Atlantis.
    Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum
    Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 9 of SG-1
    First time watching Star Trek: The Adventures of Captain Kirk and his Trusted Sidekick, Mr. Spock

  9. #269
    First Lieutenant NickEast's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stargate: Phoenix ~ Tabletop RPG by Wyvern Gaming

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon Horus View Post
    I'm biased towards liking Atlantis over SG-1, so I would like a default date to include Atlantis.
    I've basically already chosen 2011 as the default setting, the "latest" year in the franchise as it was when SGU ended. I'm trying to keep the material as close to canon and open-ended as possible (perhaps sprinkling in a little from Extinction and Revolution as has been revealed or implied), while building a custom campaign setting or just a single adventure path as a separate "supplement" or expansion for people to get started.

    Long term though

    It's kind of difficult to avoid adding too much head-canon or fan-fiction stuff in there since it's at the end of the franchise and nothing is really happening in the "universe", but I want to try and make the game itself as generic and "unopinionated" as possible.

    PS: this will be my last post about that here, since I'm now hijacking a thread about someone else's RPG.
    Last edited by NickEast; May 3rd, 2020 at 03:24 PM.

  10. #270
    General Falcon Horus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stargate: Phoenix ~ Tabletop RPG by Wyvern Gaming

    Quote Originally Posted by NickEast View Post
    I've basically already chosen 2011 as the default setting, the "latest" year in the franchise as it was when SGU ended. I'm trying to keep the material as close to canon and open-ended as possible (perhaps sprinkling in a little from Extinction and Revolution as has been revealed or implied), while building a custom campaign setting or just a single adventure path as a separate "supplement" or expansion for people to get started.

    Long term though

    It's kind of difficult to avoid adding too much head-canon or fan-fiction stuff in there since it's at the end of the franchise and nothing is really happening in the "universe", but I want to try and make the game itself as generic and "unopinionated" as possible.
    2011 -- that's a good starting point to work with.
    Heightmeyer's Lemming -- still the coolest Lemming of the forum
    Proper Stargate Rewatch -- season 9 of SG-1
    First time watching Star Trek: The Adventures of Captain Kirk and his Trusted Sidekick, Mr. Spock

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