Flat Earthers and other regressions

[mad_gater]

Nope, not implying that at all.

Just drawing from personal experience in which history from other continents is rarely touched upon in depth so it's always a bit tricky, I personally find, to discuss it or talk in depth about history on an international forum with an international audience.

Unfortunately though, American history is very superficial in our history classes -- European history takes up all the hours already. We didn't delve into Eastern history either, unless it was somehow important towards anything happening in Europe.

In fact, I wanted to study South-American pre-Columbian history but those courses were not even available at any of our universities. Would have had to go to Leiden in The Netherlands, and that was a little too far out for me. (mentally not capable of moving that far away)



Neither is Roman or Greek, and yet part of our history curriculum -- in depth.
Where I live, the Romans just never really reached that far north -- to say, there is very little archaeological evidence to the contrary.



That would mean, everyone should learn African history... ...and in my case, it would also include Germanic (which it does), Roman (did), Scandinavian maybe, Eastern-European likely... Too many to name.

I have a fair amount of Eastern European ancestry (Slovak, Lithuanian, probably some Polish and Hungarian too)...who knows...maybe I'm a distant descendant of a winged hussar

[magi877]

The main aspect of metal is that there is no rules, no genres. Similar to rock but pushed a step further: outside of the normal musical boundaries, electric guitars tuned to sound raw paired with shocking vocals.

IMO, you stop being true metal when you conform to please the masses or for any other motives.



The music isn't bad, I actually enjoy some songs but enter Sandman was just played to death on every single rockish radio stations I know of and I'm just sick of hearing it.

But, but,but...what about BABYMETAL?

[magi877]

Nope, not implying that at all.

Just drawing from personal experience in which history from other continents is rarely touched upon in depth so it's always a bit tricky, I personally find, to discuss it or talk in depth about history on an international forum with an international audience.

Unfortunately though, American history is very superficial in our history classes -- European history takes up all the hours already. We didn't delve into Eastern history either, unless it was somehow important towards anything happening in Europe.

In fact, I wanted to study South-American pre-Columbian history but those courses were not even available at any of our universities. Would have had to go to Leiden in The Netherlands, and that was a little too far out for me. (mentally not capable of moving that far away)



Neither is Roman or Greek, and yet part of our history curriculum -- in depth.
Where I live, the Romans just never really reached that far north -- to say, there is very little archaeological evidence to the contrary.



That would mean, everyone should learn African history... ...and in my case, it would also include Germanic (which it does), Roman (did), Scandinavian maybe, Eastern-European likely... Too many to name.

OK... First off, I will state what has probably already been noticed about one of my online faults.

that being, i present a statement like "Are you inferring that..." then also reply to that inference in the same post

this i think, is a adjustment made by me to 'get my word in' on some other sites where there may actually be like a dozen or more replies being made about what me and the other person are discussing therefore causing me to have to reply to them and then sometimes forget to continue the original discussion

--------------
anyhow, yes, so bottom to top (haven't got the parsed response thing figured out yet,well i really have not tried to figure it out) in response

--yes! we all are africans if you go back far enough. though with new discoveries found all the time about previously unk human races (denisovans, etc), everything is subject to adjustment


--yes, our cultures are far removed from the greek and roman (but again, what was "roman" at the end?) in many ways. but we do still have strong influence in our languages and in our law and political systems all based on the roman model

but i will add, i am very happy that our societies have (broadly) adopted the roman way as a basis for our legal systems and the germanic way as a basis for our entertainment and not vice versa

--on the history of other areas not being available due to local curriculum.

probably the last history classes that should be made available to others, even americans themselves, is US history. imo, our history is more like current affairs than history

in america, there is next to no education on asian or african history. yes, they touch on japan and china (part of the reason why so many americans think every asian they meet is either japanese or chinese?) a bit, but usually only in how their affairs intersected with US or European history.

same with african histories.

so, yes, i think we agree


history teachers have a bad problem in defending the teaching of history. especially in america with tightening curriculum that are focused on standardized testing.

this coincidental to this thread, may be part of the issues behind current "regressions" in knowledge in america and elsewhere

the most often used reason for learning history is "to not repeat the mistakes of the past"

imo, that is true and we could add "to learn how mistakes of the past has led to our often, poor reactions to the conditions caused by past mistakes"

[Annoyed]

OK... First off, I will state what has probably already been noticed about one of my online faults.

that being, i present a statement like "Are you inferring that..." then also reply to that inference in the same post

this i think, is a adjustment made by me to 'get my word in' on some other sites where there may actually be like a dozen or more replies being made about what me and the other person are discussing therefore causing me to have to reply to them and then sometimes forget to continue the original discussion

--------------
anyhow, yes, so bottom to top (haven't got the parsed response thing figured out yet,well i really have not tried to figure it out) in response

--yes! we all are africans if you go back far enough. though with new discoveries found all the time about previously unk human races (denisovans, etc), everything is subject to adjustment


--yes, our cultures are far removed from the greek and roman (but again, what was "roman" at the end?) in many ways. but we do still have strong influence in our languages and in our law and political systems all based on the roman model

but i will add, i am very happy that our societies have (broadly) adopted the roman way as a basis for our legal systems and the germanic way as a basis for our entertainment and not vice versa

--on the history of other areas not being available due to local curriculum.

probably the last history classes that should be made available to others, even americans themselves, is US history. imo, our history is more like current affairs than history

in america, there is next to no education on asian or african history. yes, they touch on japan and china (part of the reason why so many americans think every asian they meet is either japanese or chinese?) a bit, but usually only in how their affairs intersected with US or European history.

same with african histories.

so, yes, i think we agree


history teachers have a bad problem in defending the teaching of history. especially in america with tightening curriculum that are focused on standardized testing.

this coincidental to this thread, may be part of the issues behind current "regressions" in knowledge in america and elsewhere

the most often used reason for learning history is "to not repeat the mistakes of the past"

imo, that is true and we could add "to learn how mistakes of the past has led to our often, poor reactions to the conditions caused by past mistakes"

The biggest problem is that we've allowed our educational system to be perverted into a political indoctrination system that favors leftist ideas. One manifestation of that is the current trend to rewrite history, such as the push to eliminate Columbus day in favor of "indigenous people's day" or some such rot. Transforming the celebration of the discovery of America by Europeans* into a declaration of how horrible it was that the native population was displaced by a more technically advanced civilization.

That isn't the fault of the Europeans; it's what happens whenever a more advanced civilization encounters a more primitive one.

But one of the hallmarks of liberals is guilt and self-hatred; they want to teach us that we were evil. Fits in rather nicely with that.

*Yes, I know, Columbus wasn't actually the first European here, that was Leif Erickson or similar, but that's another discussion

[Chaka-Z0]

The biggest problem is that we've allowed our educational system to be perverted into a political indoctrination system that cuts on services and favors leftist ideas wealthy people.

Fixed. That my friend is the resultant of privatization of the education and health, two domains that should stay out of the lucrative companies' hands.

And hey don't mean to be a dick here, but I believe you said you did not attend superior studies such as university and such, a part from that class with the posters which seems to be your sole experience. Sad to say, you have no clue what you're talking about because you did not experience it yourself.

One manifestation of that is the current trend to rewrite history, such as the push to eliminate Columbus day in favor of "indigenous people's day" or some such rot.

Columbus did not discover America and besides he was a nasty and cruel captain. History is updated when new findings leads us to believe impostors are not worthy of their status.

Transforming the celebration of the discovery of America by Europeans* into a declaration of how horrible it was that the native population was displaced by a more technically advanced civilization.

Take the pink glasses off and see how horrible it actually was. The Americas' history as a whole is written in blood and wicked by nature, time to accept reality.

That isn't the fault of the Europeans; it's what happens whenever a more advanced civilization encounters a more primitive one.

You miss the point, it's not about being ''sorry'' about it, it's about recognizing what actually happened. Each year we commemorate genocides such as Rwanda or WW2, the same must be done for indigenous people that have suffered greatly.

But one of the hallmarks of liberals is guilt and self-hatred; they want to teach us that we were evil. Fits in rather nicely with that.

“The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.”
? Socrates
“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
? Socrates

*Yes, I know, Columbus wasn't actually the first European here, that was Leif Erickson or similar, but that's another discussion

Therefore he is unimportant and should step down from the pedestal we put him on as a society.

[Annoyed]

Fixed. That my friend is the resultant of privatization of the education and health, two domains that should stay out of the lucrative companies' hands.

K-12 education is NOT in the hands of private companies. It is called the public school system for a reason. And while political indoctrination/censorship is certainly a problem at the college level, which is on a for profit basis in many cases, it is also a problem in the K-12 range.

And hey don't mean to be a dick here, but I believe you said you did not attend superior studies such as university and such, a part from that class with the posters which seems to be your sole experience. Sad to say, you have no clue what you're talking about because you did not experience it yourself.

I did have some college a technical program, but in talking about the posters, I was referring to current posters in a social studies classroom in the high school I attended 40 some odd years ago, which I was taking an adult education class in.
Back when I went to that high school, such highly biased political content would have been unthinkable, let alone unacceptable in a public school classroom.

Columbus did not discover America and besides he was a nasty and cruel captain. History is updated when new findings leads us to believe impostors are not worthy of their status.



Take the pink glasses off and see how horrible it actually was. The Americas' history as a whole is written in blood and wicked by nature, time to accept reality.



You miss the point, it's not about being ''sorry'' about it, it's about recognizing what actually happened. Each year we commemorate genocides such as Rwanda or WW2, the same must be done for indigenous people that have suffered greatly.



“The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.”
? Socrates
“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
? Socrates



Therefore he is unimportant and should step down from the pedestal we put him on as a society.

I'm fine with replacing Columbus with Leif Ericson day or some such to place the honor at the feet of the man who actually did find this continent (from the European perspective).

And I have no real objection to a separate, freestanding holiday to recognize what happened to the native peoples who were here first. (as long as it is held when schools are not in session, they get too damned much time off as it is)

What I am not fine with is turning the existing into crying jag over what happens when a primitive society encounters a more (militarily) advanced one.

[magi877]

I've got a lovehate relationship with this band because Master of Puppets was my first CD and then I discovered Ride the Lightning, And Justice for all, etc. I was stunned at the Black Album and I was disgusted at Saints Anger.

I also have a copy of an unsealed record of the 91 album Metallica (its true name) which I'm planning to keep for the next 30-40 years then sell it for a fortune.

I had a bootleg copy of a Ozzy concert with Randy Rhoades. bought it from the back of some magazine (hit parader?) in 82(?)

sold it about 10 yrs ago for $204 through an online auction. it was unopened and i never played it

[magi877]

The biggest problem is that we've allowed our educational system to be perverted into a political indoctrination system that favors leftist ideas. One manifestation of that is the current trend to rewrite history, such as the push to eliminate Columbus day in favor of "indigenous people's day" or some such rot. Transforming the celebration of the discovery of America by Europeans* into a declaration of how horrible it was that the native population was displaced by a more technically advanced civilization.

That isn't the fault of the Europeans; it's what happens whenever a more advanced civilization encounters a more primitive one.

But one of the hallmarks of liberals is guilt and self-hatred; they want to teach us that we were evil. Fits in rather nicely with that.

*Yes, I know, Columbus wasn't actually the first European here, that was Leif Erickson or similar, but that's another discussion

our education system also serves to make good consumers and people with great credit scores

[magi877]

Fixed. That my friend is the resultant of privatization of the education and health, two domains that should stay out of the lucrative companies' hands.

And hey don't mean to be a dick here, but I believe you said you did not attend superior studies such as university and such, a part from that class with the posters which seems to be your sole experience. Sad to say, you have no clue what you're talking about because you did not experience it yourself.



Columbus did not discover America and besides he was a nasty and cruel captain. History is updated when new findings leads us to believe impostors are not worthy of their status.



Take the pink glasses off and see how horrible it actually was. The Americas' history as a whole is written in blood and wicked by nature, time to accept reality.



You miss the point, it's not about being ''sorry'' about it, it's about recognizing what actually happened. Each year we commemorate genocides such as Rwanda or WW2, the same must be done for indigenous people that have suffered greatly.



“The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.”
? Socrates
“The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
? Socrates



Therefore he is unimportant and should step down from the pedestal we put him on as a society.

do scandinavian nations have a "remember the sami" day? if so, then i am all for your proposal

though some would argue that american natives are celebrated every time a non native person looses money at the native american casinos

[Chaka-Z0]

do scandinavian nations have a "remember the sami" day? if so, then i am all for your proposal

though some would argue that american natives are celebrated every time a non native person looses money at the native american casinos

I don't know about much about Scandinavians other than they are supposedly our European copy-cats, or the other way around

You should visit one of Canada's reserves, and you'll see this:

People living without running water and poor living conditions
People living without jobs and plagued with alcoholism or gas sniffing and violence
Hundreds of unresolved cases of murdered native women because cops at the time didn't bother investigating them or cops actually killed them
And you'll see a traumatized people, whose ancestors have been enslaved, poisoned, castrated, beaten and killed.

If you don't think this is just cause to have a national holiday for Columbus can go f**k himself seriously.

[aretood2]

The biggest problem is that we've allowed our educational system to be perverted into a political indoctrination system that favors leftist ideas. One manifestation of that is the current trend to rewrite history, such as the push to eliminate Columbus day in favor of "indigenous people's day" or some such rot. Transforming the celebration of the discovery of America by Europeans* into a declaration of how horrible it was that the native population was displaced by a more technically advanced civilization.

Columbus day has nothing to do with public schools...and how was it not horrible that native populations and their cultures were wiped out?

That isn't the fault of the Europeans; it's what happens whenever a more advanced civilization encounters a more primitive one.

So much for responsibility....It was so their fault because they did it. It's like me crashing my car into your house and then saying it's not my fault because "it's what happens when someone drinks and drives under the influence". Why do you even care for defending them in the first place?

But one of the hallmarks of liberals is guilt and self-hatred; they want to teach us that we were evil. Fits in rather nicely with that.

Don't know what school you went to but this is a bucket full of lies, and bad lies at that.

*Yes, I know, Columbus wasn't actually the first European here, that was Leif Erickson or similar, but that's another discussion

To be honest, I never understood why we even have a Columbus day in the first place.....We might as well have a "Simon Bolivar" and a "Queen Elizabeth I" day here then if we are celebrating other people's icons. I can understand the Caribbean states having a Columbus day, or Mexico and Central America. But the US? South America? Canada? That always struck me as odd.

[magi877]

[QUOTE=Chaka-Z0;14666614

If you don't think this is just cause to have a national holiday for Columbus can go f**k himself seriously.[/QUOTE]

so, you are saying that the items you listed are a just cause for a columbus day?

either way, columbus discovered the Caribbean. believing he discovered america is another example of a regression of knowledge. a very early one in our history, but nonetheless a willful and deliberate distortion of the facts to make one small segment of american society appeased

it was about politics and nothing to do with actual facts

signed into law as a federal holiday in 1934:

In April 1934, as a result of lobbying by the Knights of Columbus and New York City Italian leader Generoso Pope, Congress and President Franklin Delano Roosevelt proclaimed October 12 be a federal holiday under the name Columbus Day.

[magi877]

.



To be honest, I never understood why we even have a Columbus day in the first place.....We might as well have a "Simon Bolivar" and a "Queen Elizabeth I" day here then if we are celebrating other people's icons. I can understand the Caribbean states having a Columbus day, or Mexico and Central America. But the US? South America? Canada? That always struck me as odd.

yes, indeed

apparently there quite a few fanbois of Mr C in the Dominican Republic

they even built a massive shrine/park. massive waste of concrete in their capital

https://www.google.com/search?q=colu...w=1366&bih=657


there is an excellent book on this and other lesser known items about the time period

A VOYAGE LONG AND STRANGE by Tony Horowitz

[aretood2]

yes, indeed

apparently there quite a few fanbois of Mr C in the Dominican Republic

they even built a massive shrine/park. massive waste of concrete in their capital

https://www.google.com/search?q=colu...w=1366&bih=657


there is an excellent book on this and other lesser known items about the time period

A VOYAGE LONG AND STRANGE by Tony Horowitz

Columbus Day is as controversial in Latin America as it is here.

Some facts about Columbus days in Latin America. In many places it has been called "Dia de la raza" which literally means "Day of the race" and it's "race" and in people, not the athletic competition. This is a 20th century development pushed by a Spaniard head of an Iberian-American international organization "Union Ibero-Americana". In different countries it either has this name or other names like "Dia de descubrimiento" (Discovery Day) and so on. It has a controversial history that ranges from traditional "Hurray for Columbus" to "Mourn the natives". As for Spain and Italy, they have their own take on the holiday in question which makes sense cause he is their guy.

[magi877]

Columbus Day is as controversial in Latin America as it is here.

Some facts about Columbus days in Latin America. In many places it has been called "Dia de la raza" which literally means "Day of the race" and it's "race" and in people, not the athletic competition. This is a 20th century development pushed by a Spaniard head of an Iberian-American international organization "Union Ibero-Americana". In different countries it either has this name or other names like "Dia de descubrimiento" (Discovery Day) and so on. It has a controversial history that ranges from traditional "Hurray for Columbus" to "Mourn the natives". As for Spain and Italy, they have their own take on the holiday in question which makes sense cause he is their guy.

yeah, not news, already know this. VOYAGE... does a great job in layin gout the dissonace over columbus and other conquistador types in latin america