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Did Ancients create non-human aliens?

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    #16
    I'm not saying it's aliens, but...
    "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

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      #17
      Why would the Ancient create other races? Maybe their stargate network influenced the evolution of some lifeforms, but no direct genetic changes were made. I wouldn't mind if the next SG spinoff could focus on environment, biological hazards, adaption and extension. They could tell us so many stories how life was created by the Dakara device, what went wrong, what was working in the past, who it has effected the galactic status quo, why are pine trees everywhere etc. Stargate is a unique plot telling device, but if we try to imagine it realistically on an evolutionary timeline, we have to admit, that it can lead to clash of evolution systems too soon as the gate connect such worlds, who would normally never ever meet until they haven't reached the space technological level. There were some stories what could happen if a technological upgrade was not followed by cultural development, when tech ended up in wrong hands. But I talked a lot about such things in the past here on the GW, if you have read my comments about future spinoffs.
      https://forum.gateworld.net/threads/...1#post14639300
      "I was hoping for another day. Looks like we just got a whole lot more than that. Let's not waste it."

      "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment."

      "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if we are to be saved at all."

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        #18
        Originally posted by DigiFluid View Post
        That's not the case, at least not in canon. The only discussion of the original use of the Dakara device was Anubis (as the fat dude in the diner in "Threads") telling Daniel that it was originally created to create life after the plague; even labelling that as ironic since he was planning to use it to destroy all life.
        This is also supported by Ayiana's existence. If the plan was to use the device to destroy all organic material that might contain the plague and then recreate life from scratch, she wouldn't exist. Instead, it does seem that the Ancients used the device solely (at least as far as Earth is concerned) to create the second evolution of their form in the hopes that their species would be able to continue after the plague ran its course.

        It's a bit of an oversight, though; the one planet that you think is safe to seed humans on also happens to be the one planet where a plague infected Ancient is preserved on.

        Originally posted by nivao View Post
        The fact that Nerus achieved it, dioes not mean the Ancients didn't. If Earth was the only planet to be seeded, then why wasn't the device on Earth? It is implied that the device reorganizes matter, to destroy or create as it were. Anubis said "create life in the Milky Way galaxy", not "create life on Earth". And according to all sources regarding the plague, it would have wiped out life in the galaxy. So if there is no life, how can it evolve?

        Of course, life could evolve naturally. But the plague spread everywhere where the Ancients went, according to their own accounts. It is implied that the Ancients used the device to destroy all life in order to destroy the plague and then reseeded the galaxy with new life.
        1) The Ancients who built it were potentially infected by the plague. Constructing the device on the same planet that they wanted to use it on is a contamination risk. There's also the issue of resource allocation. With Atlantis gone, building the device on Earth would have required the transportation of everything needed to construct the device from machines that can carve through a mountain to components for the device itself via the Stargate or ship. That adds time to the project that they may not have had.

        2) What the Ancients intended for the device and what it was used for are not necessarily the same thing. The device appears to have been one of several projects that a particular group of plague infected Ancients worked on in an effort to preserve their species in their dying "breaths." For all we know they died before using the device on very many planets, but actually intended to make widespread use of it. So perhaps all they had time for was Earth or perhaps they seeded the building blocks of human life on several worlds and we just haven't encountered those other worlds yet (that could be because humans didn't make it on those worlds, so there are currently no living humans in the galaxy that haven't come from Earth). We also might have seen another world like that and just don't know it. That would, for example, be one way to explain the 11,000 year old human civilization form "Tin Man" without a retcon.

        3) It's possible they thought it best to only use the device on a single planet. They wouldn't have been able to know for sure what the consequences were of doing otherwise as they only had their one planet evolution model to work with. Allowing humans to evolve a second time on multiple planets at once, while risky in the sense that something could happen to them before they developed an advanced civilization, could also easily mean you're dooming humans to interstellar war as these different planets wouldn't have had a shared experience to unify under.

        Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
        I really thought it was said at some point that the Ori created the plague. It's not confirmed, so I stand corrected on that point, yet to me they remain ''Ancient Most Wanted'' since we've seen them create similar, seemingly incurable, invisible illnesses, in late SG seasons.
        While certainly suspicious, another possible explanation for the similarity could simply be that the Ori used their ascended abilities to learn what killed the Ancients and decided that it would be worthwhile to create a version of it for use against humans. So, yeah, we don't know for sure that they used the plague to kill the Ancients, but I will say that it would been a better reveal for future stories than the one I'm presenting now. This is a dead end, storywise. If it was revealed that they simply copied the plague in season 11, you have a rather anti-climatic few second reveal and then you move on. If, on the other hand, we were presented with evidence that the Ori infected the Ancients, that's a jumping off point to delve into both Ancient and Ori history. I can therefore more easily see that being the intention of the writers as it has greater storytelling potential, but writers do sometimes drop intended story threads with anti-climatic reveals for a variety of reasons.
        Last edited by Xaeden; 29 January 2019, 12:07 AM.

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          #19
          Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
          While certainly suspicious, another possible explanation for the similarity could simply be that the Ori used their ascended abilities to learn what killed the Ancients and decided that it would be worthwhile to create a version of it for use against humans. So, yeah, we don't know for sure that they used the plague to kill the Ancients, but I will say that it would been a better reveal for future stories than the one I'm presenting now. This is a dead end, storywise. If it was revealed that they simply copied the plague in season 11, you have a rather anti-climatic few second reveal and then you move on. If, on the other hand, we were presented with evidence that the Ori infected the Ancients, that's a jumping off point to delve into both Ancient and Ori history. I can therefore more easily see that being the intention of the writers as it has greater storytelling potential, but writers do sometimes drop intended story threads with anti-climatic reveals for a variety of reasons.
          I really do like the theory that they used their ascended abilities to artificially evolve their tech, as I've argued countless times when someone said the Ori were not as advanced as the Ancients at the Exodus moment.

          How about this: a rogue Ancient converts to the Ori religion, in secrecy, and uses his advanced scientific knowledge to manufacture the plague. He could've worked undercover, an Ori sleeper agent of sort, using live Ancient test subjects. A little bit in the fashion of The Destroyer of Worlds (Linea? not sure name).

          It might not be the best reveal as you say, yet I would think that anything else than Ori would be hard to swallow to me. And on a personal note, I found the whole Ori arc forced and I always had the impression that this late arc was more of a ''patch'' to extend the series further at popular demand. It was just too much Goa'uld 2.0 in my opinion.
          Spoiler:
          I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
            I really do like the theory that they used their ascended abilities to artificially evolve their tech, as I've argued countless times when someone said the Ori were not as advanced as the Ancients at the Exodus moment.
            Yeah this is one of those little things everyone assumes, that bugs me. We were never shown the ancient Ori at the time of the exodus; we were only shown the Alterans/Ancients as they left, in the opening minutes of "The Ark of Truth." Could be that the Ori fanatics were anti-technology Luddites, could be they had the exact same technological advancements as the Alterans. But in strictest terms of canon, we simply don't know where the Ori were (technologically) at at the time of the Alteran exodus.

            Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
            How about this: a rogue Ancient converts to the Ori religion, in secrecy, and uses his advanced scientific knowledge to manufacture the plague. He could've worked undercover, an Ori sleeper agent of sort, using live Ancient test subjects. A little bit in the fashion of The Destroyer of Worlds (Linea? not sure name).
            I like that, but I'm not sure the chronology quite works. We know that the SGU gates predate the Milky Way gates, so there's a time lapse of some length between gate version generations, and the Antarctic gate's age is estimated at 50 million years in "Frozen," while we know from "Rising" and various episodes of Atlantis that the city left this galaxy (due to the plague) somewhere between 3-5 million years ago. So it being one sleeper agent doesn't quite work, IMO.

            What about a lineage? Something like the Sith (Star Wars) "Rule of Two"? I have no idea whether it would make a satisfying story, but it's an interesting thought.

            Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
            And on a personal note, I found the whole Ori arc forced and I always had the impression that this late arc was more of a ''patch'' to extend the series further at popular demand. It was just too much Goa'uld 2.0 in my opinion.
            For my part, I really enjoyed the Ori storyline, and wish it had been allowed to spool out for longer. I wish the 'cold war' of the Prior invasion had gone on for longer than just one season/that the Crusader army story had been put off a bit longer (in a perfect world, where we have guaranteed as many seasons as we like).

            If I have one real beef with the Ori storyline, it's that the Arthurian angle was introduced as something completely new and something that they had never experienced before. Really? 20+ SG teams have been exploring the galaxy for eight years and there's not one mention of someone having encountered Ancient/Arthurian mythology out there in all that time? Rationally I understand that it was down to creativity -- they needed a new hook for a new era of the show -- but thought about in context of the whole series's storytelling, it's a little jarring to switch from one type of mythology to another so abruptly and without having laid any groundwork.

            As a sidenote, I often wonder what it would've been like if they'd been allowed to relaunch the series as "Stargate Command" as originally intended. Maybe make a few more cast adjustments and make a new series out of it entirely.
            "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

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              #21
              Originally posted by DigiFluid View Post
              I like that, but I'm not sure the chronology quite works. We know that the SGU gates predate the Milky Way gates, so there's a time lapse of some length between gate version generations, and the Antarctic gate's age is estimated at 50 million years in "Frozen," while we know from "Rising" and various episodes of Atlantis that the city left this galaxy (due to the plague) somewhere between 3-5 million years ago. So it being one sleeper agent doesn't quite work, IMO.

              Well just a short nap of 3-5 million years is... super mega sleeper agent? Hibernating agent? Stasis Agent? Maybe he pulled a Doyle Brunson (Poker reference, he's known to use the ''Mega Sleeper'' tactic). Okay it doesn't work

              What about a lineage? Something like the Sith (Star Wars) "Rule of Two"? I have no idea whether it would make a satisfying story, but it's an interesting thought.
              Ascended Ori that takes human form pherhaps? But yea I agree it's not really in the league of SG.

              For my part, I really enjoyed the Ori storyline, and wish it had been allowed to spool out for longer. I wish the 'cold war' of the Prior invasion had gone on for longer than just one season/that the Crusader army story had been put off a bit longer (in a perfect world, where we have guaranteed as many seasons as we like).
              I mean after so many seasons, I am of the opinion that it was time for the franchise to renew itself. SG1 I think lasted too long, SGA needed 1-2 more seasons. SGU was just a heartbreak for me, my favorite all-time sci-fi show.

              I've never been able to take Browder and Claudia seriously, I just can't dig for any of those characters in a SG show and frankly they're not my favorites anywhere else on the small screen. I love humor, but not so much in sci-fi, I'd rather have tiny well-placed jokes than a constant humorous vibe. Every interactions with other NPC's seem like a comedy. Not to mention that Vala completely corrupted Daniel's character to the point where he wasn't recognizable anymore. I get the whole love hate relationship, trust me I've lived it myself. ...might just be internal Chaka talking here.
              Spoiler:
              I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
                I mean after so many seasons, I am of the opinion that it was time for the franchise to renew itself. SG1 I think lasted too long, SGA needed 1-2 more seasons. SGU was just a heartbreak for me, my favorite all-time sci-fi show.

                I've never been able to take Browder and Claudia seriously, I just can't dig for any of those characters in a SG show and frankly they're not my favorites anywhere else on the small screen. I love humor, but not so much in sci-fi, I'd rather have tiny well-placed jokes than a constant humorous vibe. Every interactions with other NPC's seem like a comedy. Not to mention that Vala completely corrupted Daniel's character to the point where he wasn't recognizable anymore. I get the whole love hate relationship, trust me I've lived it myself. ...might just be internal Chaka talking here.
                They wanted to rename the show, so SG-1 season 9 and 10 should be considered as the season 1 and 2 of Stargate : Command. Just SyFy wanted to reach the longest running scifi cable show title, so they have kept the name of SG-1.
                "I was hoping for another day. Looks like we just got a whole lot more than that. Let's not waste it."

                "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment."

                "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if we are to be saved at all."

                Comment


                  #23
                  I think I need a refresher. How could the Ancients guarantee that the Dakara device would destroy all humanity in the Milky Way? What about possible remnants that would survive the plague of the Ori? And how exactly did the Dakara device enable human populations in the Pegasus Galaxy? And how again was it that some earthlings acquired the original Ancient DNA to be able to activate the chair etc.? In any case, since there were non-humans who had advanced civilizations such as Salish, Retu, etc. etc. how did they acquire humanoid physical and/or intellectual characteristics without contact with the original human Ancients? Even the Asgard had one time been humanoid. Then there were others such as Reole, Nox, etc.?

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                    #24
                    Please re-read the thread, this has been discussed at length.
                    "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by DigiFluid View Post
                      If I have one real beef with the Ori storyline, it's that the Arthurian angle was introduced as something completely new and something that they had never experienced before. Really? 20+ SG teams have been exploring the galaxy for eight years and there's not one mention of someone having encountered Ancient/Arthurian mythology out there in all that time? Rationally I understand that it was down to creativity -- they needed a new hook for a new era of the show -- but thought about in context of the whole series's storytelling, it's a little jarring to switch from one type of mythology to another so abruptly and without having laid any groundwork.
                      To be fair, there were, what, two planets with people related to Arthurian history? And I don't think either were addresses from the Ancient database, which is an effective explanation for why Sg-1 never encountered them before. The address to Camelot was found in Merlin's mantle. It wasn't said that it was a new address to them as far as I'm aware, but we do know the planet they began the quest for the Sangraal on was not on the Ancient Stargate list because they had to combine three known addresses to find it.

                      The planets that the obelisks cycled through were also cut off from the rest of the gate network, so it seems Merlin/Morgan took some number of gates from existing worlds and set them up on new worlds to keep them hidden.

                      Originally posted by Davey View Post
                      I think I need a refresher. How could the Ancients guarantee that the Dakara device would destroy all humanity in the Milky Way? What about possible remnants that would survive the plague of the Ori?
                      As Digifluid noted, this is something that was discussed in the thread.

                      And how exactly did the Dakara device enable human populations in the Pegasus Galaxy?
                      We have no idea if it did or not. It's possible that, after Atlantis established itself in Pegasus a group of Ancients gated to Dakara and used the device to seed human life in the Pegasus galaxy, but it's also possible that the Ancients simply "test tubed" humans and seeded them on planets in their current form, without triggering their evolution from the native animal population. The specifics have never been addressed in the show.

                      And how again was it that some earthlings acquired the original Ancient DNA to be able to activate the chair etc.?
                      10,000 years ago the Ancients evacuated the Pegasus gate via Atlantis and returned to Earth. They thought they would find the technology necessary to maintain their civilization. When they instead discovered that they would have to rebuild practically from scratch they abandoned that plan and broke up into three fractions. Some headed back through the Stargate (we don't know what happened to any of them save Janus who rebuilt his time traveling jumper and used it elsewhere in the Milky Way), some devoted their lives on Earth to working toward ascension, and some helped humans develop the building blocks of civilization. That third group interbred with humans, which is why the ATA gene exists in some percentage of Earth's (and presumably the larger Milky Way's) human population today.

                      In any case, since there were non-humans who had advanced civilizations such as Salish, Retu, etc. etc. how did they acquire humanoid physical and/or intellectual characteristics without contact with the original human Ancients? Even the Asgard had one time been humanoid. Then there were others such as Reole, Nox, etc.?
                      It's probably best to just look at the humanoid aliens for what they are: stand-ins for truly alien looking species. For budget reasons, people are sometimes put in make-up and said to be aliens because it's easier and less expensive than CGI-ing them. Writers can pull a Star Trek and try to create a canonical reason for this or they can ignore it and hope viewers suspend disbelief. Stargate avoids most of this by using humanoid aliens sparingly, preferring instead to create explanations for why actual humans exist on other planets. This is overall a very smart and effective workaround for the limitations of TV, but it starts to get convoluted when applied to the Ancients. Trying to similarly create explanations for the existence of every humanoid species (like the Nox) would be just make things worse.

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                        #26
                        The pine trees could be explained that gymnosperm plants were more important for the Ancient to change the athmosphere of hostile worlds. Just it would have been nice to hear some stories how they placed the first stargates, which worlds were included or left out, how the first domes looked like. The area around of a stargate is nothing in comparsion to the surface of a planet, so I am guessing they brought animals and plants from Earth. That is the reason I was brainstorming that the next Stargate could talk more about biology related subjects (evolution, adaption, climate change, protection of environment) while they could still write stories about it if one of the main characters would be a biology or geology expert. It could be a nice move from history to biology. Even the main bad guys could be some form of bioterrorist, who turned against the gate system users....


                        It would be still hard to explain why we could not see any other non-Earth based ecosystems. Some concept arts of Stargate : Worlds has shown some, so I know budget wise they could not afford such things in a tv show. We can also not expect that every week we will see an Avatar type of new worlds with new plants and animals. That is the reason it would have been nice to occasionally something else then pine trees. Have the Ancients merged the local plants? Or have they used just Earth based ones? Could we see such animals which became extinct on Earth? etc.

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnosperm

                        * * *
                        Underwater aliens... Well... There could be even different races with different motives. Or different folks of the same race. You know once like dark closed worlds under the ice, while others like the tropical sea planets, the third one which likes wondering to the mainlands, the fourth one maybe like the swamps with rotten leafs etc. There would be so much fun to introduce a proper water race. One of them could still activaley interfere other worlds (tsunamis, floods), while other would just simply freeze everyone. Or they could go for daily mission in "water suits" and that is how the heroes would contact them. Or even the weather changing devices could influence their culture etc. Or they could sit on giants sea horses like a classis Ariel type mermaid. I always wanted to see manta rays type aliens flying through the stargate without water into the SGC. If they could film them in a tank, maybe they could be added digitally easily. (By the way once I asked Joe Mallozzi why could they not make a scene with a camel is going through the gate, but he said it needs lots of authorization of using animals on the show. Probably the PETA / Green Peace would watch them nonstoply.)

                        Not to mention there are such real life sea animals which could be digitally scanned to have an "alien" on the show. Here are some examples that even our nature can create such races which looks like aliens:

                        Like these sea dragons:
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_seadragon
                        https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.1340...x800,070,f.jpg
                        https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...eniolatus1.jpg
                        https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...yllopteryx.jpg

                        Blue dragon:
                        https://steemit.com/animals/@rocking...ien-from-earth
                        https://hybridtechcar.com//wp-conten...original38.jpg

                        Not to mention these guys :
                        http://www.storytrender.com/12102/st...es-look-world/
                        http://www.clearlifestyles.com/wow-2...ike-pokemon/5/
                        https://hybridtechcar.com/sea-creatu...liens-planets/

                        Or if they could visit exotic alien worlds there are so many crystals, marples, mushrooms which could be inspiration to odd looking alien worlds. JM also said that it is not a lack of imagination that they can not find out new aliens with weird looking for the Stargate : Universe show... It is rather a budget question.
                        Have you ever heard from the Naica cave in Mexico?
                        http://www.luvthat.com/wp-content/up...hua_Mexico.jpg

                        Or the Wave in Arizona, USA?
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wave,_Arizona

                        Or the Glowworm cave in New Zealand?
                        http://www.rumblerum.com/glowworm-cave-new-zealand/

                        Or Hang Son Doong cave in Vietnam?
                        http://www.atchuup.com/son-doong/

                        or the Dallol Vulcano in Ethiopia?
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallol_(volcano)
                        https://steemit.com/photography/@car...rt-in-ethiopia

                        or the Danxia Mountains in Zhangye, China?
                        http://www.awakeningstate.com/nature...hangye-danxia/

                        So such places are the inspirations for me to imagine "wild" alien planets. Okay, they can never afford to shoot some scenes there (Naica would be too hot anyway), but maybe they could use them as digital backgrounds. You know I would be happy with a stargate on the savannah with some real / digital baobabs or acacia trees or dragon trees. There are such rare plants on Socotra as well which could be used as inspiration or digital background in the future. Just they should forget the pine trees!
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adansonia_digitata
                        http://www.viralforest.com/alien-looking-place-earth/
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracaena_cinnabari
                        http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-...ears-old-00866
                        https://forum.gateworld.net/threads/...galaxy-in-2020
                        "I was hoping for another day. Looks like we just got a whole lot more than that. Let's not waste it."

                        "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment."

                        "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if we are to be saved at all."

                        Comment


                          #27
                          There have been a few references to both the Goa'uld and Ancients terraforming planets. Here's the Goa'uld one:

                          DANIEL
                          For a planet with a U.V. radiation as high as this one's supposed to have, the plant life seems to be doing very well.

                          CARTER
                          Apparently, Abydos was the exception, not the rule, as far as trees are concerned.

                          DANIEL
                          Well, that makes sense. I mean, in order for a planet to support human life, there must be some form of carbon-based vegetation, right?

                          [Carter nods.]

                          TEAL'C
                          It is no accident. Many Stargate worlds were terra-formed by the Goa'uld centuries ago.
                          Of course, that's from the sixth episode of the series when the Goa'uld were considered to be the creators of the Stargates, so Teal'c's belief may be another example of the Goa'uld taking credit for something they never actually did. They certainly transported animals and plants from Earth even if they didn't engage in full scale planetary terraforming projects, though.
                          Last edited by Xaeden; 30 January 2019, 12:12 AM.

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                            #28
                            So was it conceivable that ordinary homo sapiens as we are could emerge without any connection to the Ancients at all? Could it be that Ancients were only one portion of humans that emerged in one or another galaxy and that other humans existed simultaneously and independently of the Ancients?

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Davey View Post
                              So was it conceivable that ordinary homo sapiens as we are could emerge without any connection to the Ancients at all? Could it be that Ancients were only one portion of humans that emerged in one or another galaxy and that other humans existed simultaneously and independently of the Ancients?
                              Based on what we know, no. Ancients seeded human life in the milky way, left and then seeded more human life in Pegasus.
                              Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

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                                #30
                                So where did the Sakaras come from, who themselves seeded planets? Not to mention other humanoids as those we have seen on SG1??

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