How old is destiny ship?

[Chaka-Z0]

Part II:

I'm back, here goes part 2.

Once we're talking about a siege, the number of Wraith who need to be awake goes way down. Most Ancient battleships won't be powered by ZPMs as there weren't enough to go around, and those are far easier to take out than Atlantis. Ones with ZPMs still need to be resupplied with drones, so they can only stay in the battle for so long before needing to be resupplied. Atlantis itself was able to survive for years against the Wraith's firepower (presumably after swapping out their ZPMs a bunch of times), but the Wraith don't need their darts at that point as it's the heavy weapons fire from Hives that are most effective. Hence, their Hives can operate on skeleton crews while most of the Wraith sleep at that point.

We were never shown what the siege looked like (a part from before I sleep when we see the rescue ship destroyed). Safe to assume that the Lanteans could've sent a couple cloaked jumpers or something to do surprise attacks. They certainly wouldn't sit on their arse getting bombarded if they were able to scramble fighters or something. Therefore, if the Ancients had any shred of strategy, they would try to keep the Wraiths alert at all times for this exact reason.

As for moving billions of humans to Earth, you're adding another level.

I am not really suggesting moving billions of people, that's just impossible. What I said is that in LAST RESORT if all was lost, they could evacuate as many as possible through the gate if they were about to get overwhelmed, pretty much like they did in the show. Then self-destruct the city.

However, you look at it, this is madness.

As was the situation in the Pegasus galaxy at the time. To be honest, I don't think any of what I or you suggested could be any worse than what they actually did.

I don't agree that they ignored food as an issue. Sg-1 always carried food with them on missions and the writers regularly made a point of them having to eat or ration (if need be) what they had available to them.

Here are some of many examples:

I could go on like this for pages, and I'm tempted to because your comment baffles me given the volume with which this actually comes up. In another case, refugees are brought through the gate and have to spend time in the SGC and the issue of how they will get fed is brought up. In Atlantis, they talked about a potential food shortage by the 6th episode, so Teyla introduced them to the Genii specifically because she knew them as farmers who the Athosians previously traded with. Later they get resupplied by Earth and talk about that, they come through the gate with fresh fruit that they've been gifted, and so on and so forth.

You don't understand what I said. Of course they talk about it, but its never more than talk. Jaffa farms? How do the Goa'ulds feed themselves? They must have a ton of food stores in a mothership because they have armies in the thousands. Nothing? Latrines for the soldiers? Maybe they don't eat at all? Alpha site food storage? Only SGU did it in Air and Water episodes. Food and Water is the one thing that is the most impacted during wars.

Literally all your quotes proves that its only mentioned, not really made into an actual plot or issue in the show. Its easy to understand why, just like they won't show the SG teams stopping occasionally for nature calls. There is no time, in the SG format of a 45 minutes wrap-up episode, to address these matters. Or it simply wouldn't be appealing for the viewers. The Wraith don't count, since their food is more or less the corner stone of their lore and directly connected to their very nature.

Stargate (SG1-SGA) is the one franchise where the ''mudane'' aspects of life such as food and water is the least important in terms of actual plots and scenes shown on screen. Its extra, either on random script lines or briefly addressed in a few episodes out of the 10 years of SG1. Its a family show, its understandable and also because of the 45 minutes episodes model.

And how many are going to shoot back? Or set off bombs both in the moment and later as retribution?

Well if they are hostile in the first place, there probably won't be much evacuation anyways. If they become hostile, leave them there, hell you can't force some folks out of their house when there's a tornado coming, that's on them. Are you telling me that most of the jews in the WW2 would refuse to leave their homes prior to the Nazi arrival? Did you know how many people gave their lives trying to smuggle jews out of the warzone even before WW2 broke out? Are you saying fathers and mothers would rather condem their children to certain death instead of trying to get them a better life than being a snack for Wraith? It's not an extreme comparison, the situation is pretty much the same with SGA, wraith kill humans or ''farm'' them, jews were killed or sent to camps. Given the chance, they would take it.

You know what people love? Knowing their family members were taken through the gate by the an arrogant, technologically superior race never to be seen against and told they should trust that they'll be okay.

You know what people love? Knowing their family members were killed by vampires instead of literally putting two steps forward and going to safety... oh wait no, they stayed behind and they're dead now. This doesn't make sense I'm sorry. It's quite obvious for them to know what's going on when there's darts zooming in and out everywhere abducting people like Roswell.

Then there's the issue of unhappy governments. Do any of them have nuclear weapons or any kind of military forces capable of doing damage to Ancient ground, aerial, and/or space targets?

Only the Genii were shown to be that far advanced technologically, and EVEN so, only were able to create the nuclear bomb with the help of McKay and Zelinka. Assuming otherwise is just speculation and goes against canon. Prior to the SG:C arrival, there was really no threat to the Wraith. The Genii stayed hidden, so they literally had no enemies really (that we know of in 5 seasons of SG), other than hostile wraith factions.

There's a reason why the Wraith don't just go in with stunners against societies like the Satedans and it's because they can't; such a society can put up so much resistance that the only way to quell them is with heavy, lethal military force. You appear to be imagining the Ancients going around to a bunch of village planets and mopping up people like the Wraith did to the Athosians, but the reality of the matter is the Ancients would be going to probably a good number of planets where they have to engage in bombing military targets and using other forms of lethal force to stop all major forms resistance, which means a lot of people are going to die.

Sure they can't, because they'll get killed. There's also a reason why folks similar to the Satedans aren't around anymore. In these cases from what we've seen the Wraith prefer to wipe them out and pick the few left for dinner.

Churchill made an agreement to cede Polish territory to the U.S.S.R., which forced Polish people off their land and compensated the Polish government by giving them German land, which forced Germans to do likewise.

You've got to put yourself back in the situation mate. Poland unfortunately has historically been the scapegoat and punching bag of the World powers. Stalin was just as bad as Hitler, both Churchil and Roosevelt were dealing with the devil there. If you don't think for a second that R & C sugar-coated their talks during negotiations, you are absolutely wrong. They knew that as soon as Germany was down, Stalin would rush to get as much territory as he could before the peace settled in. That was proven in the Pacific war (Soviet-Japs). Obviously Stalin didn't expect the US to have the Atomic bomb ready so soon, and acted quickly to show that the USSR did its part and deserved territories. For instance, the island of Heidokko was supposed to go to the Soviets but didn't after all, due to the position of power the US were in.

Churchill was also an imperialist who lamented the human rights abuses of others while the British were still holding on to colonies that did not grant equal rights to non-British people. You're using attitudes that we are critical of today in the hopes that we do not fall back into them to defend an extremely impractical and highly authoritarian plan that requires the Ancients to choose to enslave humanity in order to "save" them. Do you realize how authoritarianism always cites people's best interests when backing whatever horrific act of violence against the people they seek to implement?

Churchill was obviously not a good leader in time of peace, but the best that Britain could EVER have during WW2. Are you telling me that Chamberlain was a better fit? You do know that Chamberlain and other ''soft'' politicians, such as the US isolationists politicians, kept eating the Nazi promises of peace and treaties like candy, only Churchill had the presence of mind in Parliament to warn, ever since the end of WW1, that the Germans would come back and ONLY military might and cunning would defeat them.

Dunkirk is the best parallel that proves my point. How many soldiers were saved? About 350k? You know they expected to save less than 50k. And guess who saved them? Churchill that ordered every single fisherman, citizen and businessmen to get on their small boat and try to save as many as possible. That is an authoritarian plan, sure, but it was a necessity.

To be honest, I don't want this discussion of ours to derail to a history debate on the Great War. I literally only quoted Churchill on the ungentlemanly warfare, which was required at the time since Britain was about to be invaded and guerrilla warfare would be the only option, which is a comparable situation to the Ancients facing Wraiths. Desperate times, desperate measures, you can't act the nice guy all the time when the other side isn't. That is the very definition of being a fool, which in my opinion the Ancients were considering how advance their tech was.

[Chaka-Z0]

Part III:

I think we'll need to reduce the lenght of these wall of texts, this is the last time I'm doing this, very tedious. But I think all of what you said is important so I'll take the time to read it all and try to respond to most of it.

You're citing how many people live and in what state they are in during the present day, not imagining what life was like 10,000 years ago. At the start of the series, the Wraith were estimated at having less than a hundred Hives and however many cruisers throughout the whole galaxy. These are numbers that serve to make them a threat to Earth who has limited supplies, resources, and ability to control/access Ancient technology. They would, however, be wiped out quickly and easily by the actual Ancients during almost any point during the war. The reason for the discrepancy is that, in expanding their numbers to combat the Ancients, they overfed and over reproduced (and over cloned), resulting in humans not being numerous enough to sustain them. Thus, the Wraith went through a tremendous period of decline where they probably fought one or more civil wars before getting to the point where they decided that the only way they could survive was to hibernate for hundreds of years at a time.

I can agree with that, most of their hives probably went dormant as we've seen a couple in SGA. A good point, probably all these years ago there were 10 times at least the amount of humans to be fed upon, therefore sustaining an army much bigger. As of what we see in SGA, mustering such a huge army couldn't be possible, I concur.

They weren't at the same level. The Alterans were scientists who tried to keep their technological developments secret while outwardly pretending to have the same, primitive, medieval lifestyle as that of the Ori. The Alterans decided to leave because the Ori had "amassed armies" to move against them and the Alterans were unwilling to use their advanced technology to fight them.

How do you know that? Have you watched a secret series where we see the Ori Galaxy?

It's quite obvious TPTB wanted to portray the Ori as something similar to the Roman-Catholic church / Templars or Crusaders, carrying out holy wars wherever unbelievers were found. That being said, need I remind you that in the dark days of the Medieval age, knowledge was horded by the Clergy and the priests / bishops ALONE had basically hoarded all the books, sciences and other ouvrages. The Bible wasn't even written in English, making it impossible for the small folks to gain any access to this knowledge.

The way I see it, the Ori always hoarded knowledge because they realized people praying gave them more power, as it was clearly said in the show in regards to Ascended Ori. If they didn't share their powers now, they didn't share it then.

To advance technologically, the Ori would have had to undergone a dramatic cultural shift and, in the process, shed their efforts to stamp out scientific advancements. In which case, their reason for opposing the Alterans would no longer be in play and a reconciliation would have been possible. I therefore assume that the Ori never advanced technologically and instead only evolved until, through meditation and careful reflection, some were able to ascend.

I disagree. Technological advancement and religion can easily go hand-in-hand. As a matter of fact, the way I see it, religion in the early days of humanity served as a means to prevent people from asking themselves existential questions therefore permitting them to move forward on other aspects of life. Where do I come from? Easy, God. What is my purpose? Easy, God has a plan. Good, now let's see what I can do to improve my farming yields.. You see what I mean.

Incas and Mayas were ridiculously advanced in Astronomy for their time. They had observatories and collected at least 20-30 different solar and space phenomenons, among many others. Yet, their culture was 100% centered on religion and sacrifices to the Gods. Your assumption that the Ori didn't advance technologically doesn't work because our own history has shown that some cultures did exactly that, and advanced very far in terms of tech. Heck, the Egyptians had water-powered saws to cut stones, they knew the principle of flight, their engineering and precision in their infrastructures were outstanding.

They could have also ascended at around the same time since large numbers of Ancients were capable of ascending 5-10 million years ago when the plague hits. This would suggest that ascension was possible previously and may have occurred in smaller numbers for awhile.

Therefore it opens up the possibility that the Ascended Ori's helped their mortal accomplices to cheat and improve even more in terms of tech.

The Destiny stops at various points based on information that the seed ships give it and stays there for a period of time, collecting information, before zipping off to the next point it wants to stop at. When the people from the Icarus base arrived, Rush told the computer of their needs and it included stopping points that allowed the crew to gather supplies, but it was doing that all along for its own reasons. That's how the aliens found it and it's why it had so much battle damage.

Yes, I agree with that as well. I was focusing on the fact that having humans on boards increases the amount of stops required tenfold at least. Air, food, water, medicine are all stuff that Destiny wouldn't need to stop for if nobody was on board. Obviously there are still many stops, to gather important supplies / data for the mission.

Do you remember in season 2 when Eli proposed taking the Destiny off its course of exploration where it zigged and zagged to make various stops and Rush was worried that, by missing those stops, they might miss out on an important piece of the puzzle? Just as Eli instead took the Destiny on a direct path out of the galaxy, any support ships hanging around the edges of the galaxy could catch the Destiny by arranging to make a direct path to one of its future stops.

Wait... not sure I'm following you. Previously you had suggested that a couple escort ships could tag along and/or intervene to provide support to the Destiny. My response was that simply put, these people would have to constantly fly along the ship or risk never being able to catch up to the ship if they go back to resupply. ''any support ships hanging around the edge of the galaxy'' : You would have a ship waiting in every galaxy in advance?

This isn't making any sense to me. Say I'm a guy supporting Destiny, if it takes me 10-1000 years to reach her from the Ancients galaxy, I couldn't simply go back home. Otherwise what would be the point of that, travelling for so long for a 1-way mission?

What makes you say they could even catch up to the Destiny? We don't know if they had hyperdrives, and I don't think they did before Atlantis level of tech. By the time they discovered HD, it would be too late even with these increased speeds to catch up. So having support ships in my opinion makes no sense unless they tag along the ship 24/7 since day one.

[iliescu]

Once it is figure out when the start of the creationism of the Destiny ship then to the current day can be plot how old the Destiny ship really is unless you count how old the creators thought of it or the design process as well...or maybe just how long the crew has been on it together.