How old is destiny ship?

[Emperor Furling]

More than 50 million years old or 50 billion years old?

[Sakura]

I think destiny is about 50 million years old... it was launched soon after the creation of the stargates

[Xaeden]

50 billion years old?

I am going to go out on a limb here and say it's probably not older than the universe.

[Chaka-Z0]

Hard to tell. Rush says ''hundreds of thousands of years ago'' in the intro of SGU, but at some point it was determined it must've been more like a million or more.

This again is another unanswered question, that we would've probably found out during the subsequent seasons.

[Xaeden]

This again is another unanswered question, that we would've probably found out during the subsequent seasons.

I doubt it. The impression I got was that the writers were intentionally trying to downplay the previously established age of the Ancients for the new viewers who they were trying to appeal to. While the numbers presented in Sg-1 are extreme, and expecting us to believe that the Destiny could survive for ~50 million years on its own is extremer still, there was a reason for it. Dating Earth's DHD to 50 million years was more of a big, impressive number that I think they threw out in the moment, but the Ancients legitimately needed to be around 5-10 million years old in order to initiate the evolution of humans on Earth and they needed a reasonable chunk of time prior to that to grow to the point where they could build city ships and naturally ascend.

The writers could easily shave tens of millions of years off that 50 million number by saying the dating method of the DHD's power source was flawed, but I sincerely don't think they wanted to address those numbers in Universe, preferring instead to create the impression of the Ancients and the Destiny as existing in more reasonable time frames even if it contradicted Sg-1 and Atlantis and caused an issue with how the Ancients could also have created the second evolution of their form.

[Chaka-Z0]

I doubt it. The impression I got was that the writers were intentionally trying to downplay the previously established age of the Ancients for the new viewers who they were trying to appeal to.

Oh I totally agree with this, that's why I never really put much importance in the dates. It's understandable the timeline gets fuzzy as the years went by, with new spin-offs, movies and all.

The reason why I'm saying we could've found out, is because of a plot hole or ''mystery'' in SGU. It was never clearly addressed as to why exactly did the Ancients never boarded Destiny?

The explanation given to us (more like a guess) was: They ascended before they could board the ship.

I don't buy this. At first I thought ''well they're Ascended right? They can go anywhere in the Universe. But then I remember the many scenes we've seen spectral Ancients dialing the gate to transport themselves on other planets. Or, in SGA, when the replicators ascend and are ''stuck'' in a very limited zone. Needless to say, this explanation doesn't solve this riddle.

Why invest so much efforts sending seeding ships and exploratory ships if you're never going to board it? One possibility that makes sense, which was submitted by Platschu (or so he claims ), is that somehow Destiny is responsible for the Big Bang and finishing its journey is going back full-circle, it is our ''destiny'' (sorry that was an easy one).

[Xaeden]

Why invest so much efforts sending seeding ships and exploratory ships if you're never going to board it?

If the intention of SGU was that the mystery would be solved by Icarus expedition before the show's conclusion that would mean the Ancients were likely just ~10,000 years off from seeing the results of their labor themselves (even with stasis time jumps, the crew can't survive in a pod for more than several thousand years since they don't completely stop the aging process). Thus, if the Ancients predicted that the Destiny wouldn't get far enough to solve the mystery for X million of years and sent it there under the hope/assumption that their civilization would still be around by then, they would've been right had it not been for the Wraith.

Also, like you, I wouldn't be surprised if ascended beings have gated there before just because that would have opened the door for stories including them (once ascended they may have been able to obtain the knowledge the Destiny sought without going to the source, so seeing a conclusion to its mission may not have been a motivating reason for Ancients to gate there). They can easily hide themselves from the Destiny's computer, so that line doesn't apply to them. Hell, physical plane Ancients could have deleted any records of their activity there in the past, I just don't know why they would care to.

[Chaka-Z0]

Hmm I guess the fact they were wiped out by the plague as you suggest could work, but that brings another question. Why seed gates along the way if nobody will ever explore those planets / gate on board ?

Also Ancients we've been told were great explorers and can't seem to help themselves breaking the laws to satisfy their curiosity. I'd say a couple Ancients might want to see what's out there, even if it means it's a 1 way trip.

I'd venture a wild guess. Considering there is possibly another ascended race (the planet builders), maybe the Ancients were forbidden to go there? A "mortal only" zone perhaps, and I would also guess TPTB would've chosen a different plot than the Ancients, which have been used too many times already.

But yes it's speculation so your guess is as good as mine

[Xaeden]

Why seed gates along the way if nobody will ever explore those planets / gate on board?

Well they were probably not simply interested in the source of the cosmic radiation. It's possible that the Destiny was specifically looking for things that were not there when the seed ships first went through. Hence, the Destiny seemed to take an interest in the planet builder's world and was clearly collecting data in each galaxy (as opposed to taking a straight approach to a single location). When Eli suggested skipping the galaxy they were in, Rush took issue with this on the basis that they might miss an important piece of the puzzle.

Maybe the Destiny was designed to dial home periodically and report its findings and if something of interest appeared in a report, its builders thought it would be a good idea to be able to go ahead of schedule and have the means to easily explore whatever galaxy they were in. Like your reply, this is speculation, so I don't know. I don't even really know if physical realm Ancients actually didn't visit as I don't know if the computer can be trusted on the matter since it could easily have been wiped (particularly if lone Ancients went there to satisfy their curiosity as you suggest).

Also Ancients we've been told were great explorers and can't seem to help themselves breaking the laws to satisfy their curiosity.

When were we told that? The Ancients had an intense scientific curiosity, but I've never thought of them as explorers. From what we know they remained mostly contained within the Milky Way for millions of years and did the same in the Pegasus galaxy following their escape from the plague. It doesn't seem as if they even went back to Milky Way at all until 10,000 years ago based off of a line about how they expected to find more of their ancient civilization in the Milky Way and, upon learning that they would instead have to rebuild their civilization (basically) from scratch they, gave up, choosing to instead ascend and whatnot.

I'd say a couple Ancients might want to see what's out there, even if it means it's a 1 way trip.

After a certain point, they'd need at least one ZPM to make it. While we've seen that Ancient scientists have been given enough access to resources to develop and construct certain technologies in secrecy, I would guess that ZPMs were tightly regulated and someone would notice if one went missing.

Hypothetically, an Ancient might be able to secretly develop an alternate power source capable of dialing the 9th chevron, but the ability to independently develop technologies without other Ancients noticing might have only been prevalent during the plague and Wraith war eras. In the latter case, Ancient scientists may have taken a similar approach to the rogue Asgard by assuming that their brethren would be too busy to pay them much heed or, in their desperation, the Ancients in charge might have also allocated resources to scientists willing to work on technological solutions to the war without proper checks and balances in place. During that time, using those resources to make a trip to the Destiny out of curiosity was probably not high on anyone's todo list.

Then again, maybe you're right and some rogue Ancients went there, peeked around for a bit, and wiped all record of their presence before leaving.

I'd venture a wild guess. Considering there is possibly another ascended race (the planet builders), maybe the Ancients were forbidden to go there? A "mortal only" zone perhaps,

Okay, but the Destiny computer could only reasonably be expected to have known if physical realm Ancients visited the ship, so Rush saying he learned from the computer that the Ancients never went there cannot be expected to apply to ascended Ancients.

It's possible they never got that far out there and it's possible that the reason you suggest is why, but nothing in program addresses at all whether ascended Ancients did go that far out.

and I would also guess TPTB would've chosen a different plot than the Ancients, which have been used too many times already.

I don't think ascended Ancients would have ever been a major part of the show, but I wouldn't have been surprised if one appeared in an episode or two given that the Icarus expedition were on an Ancient ship and the ability to interact with an Ancient would be revealing. This is also a theoretically a lawless "country" where an ascended being can do whatever he or she wants since the non-interfering collective are presumably centered in and around the Milky Way. As a result, the writers could've taken a slightly different approach to an ascended Ancient in SGU (I say slightly as we had previously met Ancients who had the purview to break the rules in certain contexts/areas).

[Chaka-Z0]

Well they were probably not simply interested in the source of the cosmic radiation. It's possible that the Destiny was specifically looking for things that were not there when the seed ships first went through. Hence, the Destiny seemed to take an interest in the planet builder's world and was clearly collecting data in each galaxy (as opposed to taking a straight approach to a single location).

It does seem like Destiny has a mind of its own and knows where to go, exactly where. This just gave me an interesting idea...

When were we told that? The Ancients had an intense scientific curiosity, but I've never thought of them as explorers. From what we know they remained mostly contained within the Milky Way for millions of years and did the same in the Pegasus galaxy following their escape from the plague.

Stargate deals on such a massive scale in terms of space (Galaxies), that we sometime forget how HUGE a galaxy is. Did you know that the Milky Way alone contains over 200 billion stars and at least over 100 billion planets?

The fact that they seeded (hundreds of?) thousands of habitable planets suggest they were somehow trying to map the galaxy, excluding the inhospitable planets to ensure the survival of the life forms present or seeded. They must've met countless alien races, I like to imagine them a bit like the Star Trek of Stargate.

But I guess we mean the same thing, explorer or scientifically curious, are synonyms in my book, you ''explore'' science the same you explore land.

After a certain point, they'd need at least one ZPM to make it. While we've seen that Ancient scientists have been given enough access to resources to develop and construct certain technologies in secrecy, I would guess that ZPMs were tightly regulated and someone would notice if one went missing.

True, which is why I don't think they were used at all.

Then again, maybe you're right and some rogue Ancients went there, peeked around for a bit, and wiped all record of their presence before leaving.

This will lead me to the idea I talked about earlier

Okay, but the Destiny computer could only reasonably be expected to have known if physical realm Ancients visited the ship, so Rush saying he learned from the computer that the Ancients never went there cannot be expected to apply to ascended Ancients.

It's possible they never got that far out there and it's possible that the reason you suggest is why, but nothing in program addresses at all whether ascended Ancients did go that far out.

Okay so right off the bat, I believe what Rush says about the computer and all is absolutely irrelevant. Any Ancient that might've stepped in and didn't want others to know could easily have wiped it out as you hinted, they created the ship, they know it from top to bottom, and I think a small ''hacking'' trick isn't that much of a stretch either. Not all of them were saints.

So, now to my idea, which came to me reading your post.

What if there has been MANY Ancients on board Destiny, throughout its existence? What if I told you there is no way back, and those that boarded Destiny knew they wouldn't go back. Okay so let's go bit by bit so my idea makes sense.

1- Destiny was prior ''Modern'' tech, that means no ascension yet (it is mentioned in the show that they figured out to ascend when the plague hits them, the rest died.)

2- We can't know for sure but by cosmetics only and what we've seen in SGU, I would say that Destiny's tech level predates Atlantis by a LONG time, which could mean no ZPM tech as well, since this seemed to be their latest invention in terms of power generation.

3- Either sanctioned or not, I would theorize that Ancients have been boarding Destiny throughout its existence, sporadically or constantly. They were able to dial-in using alternate power sources, maybe a controlled reaction in an Icarus type planet, we know its possible without a ZPM, but that means it is impossible for them to dial back.

4- The crews upon their last days merged into Destiny's computer using the Chair device, aka the crude version of Ascension. Destiny's computer could be a collection of thousands of Ancients minds, along with Eli's girlfriend and the others who sat in it.

5- Does that sounds crazy?

[Xaeden]

Stargate deals on such a massive scale in terms of space (Galaxies), that we sometime forget how HUGE a galaxy is. Did you know that the Milky Way alone contains over 200 billion stars and at least over 100 billion planets?

The fact that they seeded (hundreds of?) thousands of habitable planets suggest they were somehow trying to map the galaxy, excluding the inhospitable planets to ensure the survival of the life forms present or seeded. They must've met countless alien races, I like to imagine them a bit like the Star Trek of Stargate.

The thing is that I don't know that they were interested in exploring the galaxy so much as they were interested in promoting a smart, eco-friendly colonization effort. I've seen people question why we haven't seen signs of the Ancients having a planet-wide civilization before, and my answer has always been that the Stargates allow for a much superior system. Instead of our destructive model, they were able to build single population centers around a Stargate on hundreds or thousands of worlds and have them all be linked together by a system that provided instantaneous travel time to one another. In addition to the increased connectivity that gate network provided, they didn't damage a planet's ecosystem and they were largely future-proof. They knew their civilization would span millions of years so they built everything around that, including their city ships which were capable of moving if the conditions around them became inhospitable or dangerous. If your sun is dying, if an enemy has spite-bombed a planet, radiating everything outside of your city's protective shields, or if volcanic activity became too much of a problem, as was the case where Proclarush was concerned, they could just pack up and take everything (save the outpost) to a new planet that was already scouted and seeded with a Stargate.

Stargates were seeded on worlds that were either habitable to the Ancients or had the potential to become habitable with terraforming, so they were possibly intended as both backup sites and prospective sites for future colonies when the expansion of their population required the construction of new cities. It's even possible that the Milky Way was selected as a place to colonize in the first place because it had little to no advanced life 50 million years ago.

That would explain why the Ancients spent thousands of years traveling through space before picking the Milky Way to settle in and it would explain why we have not heard a single thing about aliens from that era. No other alien technology has been said to have been recovered from that time and there has been no mention of any contact between the Ancients and others from then either. For awhile many of us assumed that the Alliance of Four Great Races stemmed from the pre-plague era, but the revelation that the Asgard only have a 100,000 year old civilization suggests the alliance was formed by the Ancients from the Pegasus galaxy who disappeared through the Stargate 10,000 years ago rather than stay on Earth and help jump start human civilization or work towards ascension.

But I guess we mean the same thing, explorer or scientifically curious, are synonyms in my book, you ''explore'' science the same you explore land.

Fair enough.

What if there has been MANY Ancients on board Destiny, throughout its existence? What if I told you there is no way back, and those that boarded Destiny knew they wouldn't go back. Okay so let's go bit by bit so my idea makes sense.

One thing to keep in mind is that there would've been a way back for most of the Ancient's history. The Destiny can't dial home today because its energy storage is only operating at 40% of its original design. Earlier in its history, when it was closer to the Milky Way, less energy would've been needed to dial back and the energy available would've been higher as the system wouldn't have degraded to the point that it has. I don't know exactly when the shift came wherein dialing back became impossible. I would guess it still couldn't dial back 10,000 years ago, but I would be surprised if the same was true in the pre-plague years or even in the early Pegasus expansionist years.

Thus, for a long time, Ancients could've come and gone if they wished to. The only reason to suspect that they legitimately hadn't been there is that, if they had, you'd think the Destiny would be in better condition as, rogue Ancient visits aside, I don't see why sanctioned visits wouldn't have results in repairs being made.

1- Destiny was prior ''Modern'' tech, that means no ascension yet (it is mentioned in the show that they figured out to ascend when the plague hits them, the rest died.)

2- We can't know for sure but by cosmetics only and what we've seen in SGU, I would say that Destiny's tech level predates Atlantis by a LONG time, which could mean no ZPM tech as well, since this seemed to be their latest invention in terms of power generation.

3- Either sanctioned or not, I would theorize that Ancients have been boarding Destiny throughout its existence, sporadically or constantly. They were able to dial-in using alternate power sources, maybe a controlled reaction in an Icarus type planet, we know its possible without a ZPM, but that means it is impossible for them to dial back.

The first two are accurate. My saying the Ancients needed a ZPM to get there was a reference to Ancients possibly visiting in later generations. If the early pre-ZPM Ancients wanted to get to the Destiny the power demands on gate travel would be much lower and they could have easily used something akin to the Destiny's energy storage system since it, operating at more than 40% efficiency, can dial back even at this stage in its journey. My assumption is that early Ancients probably had little need to visit the Destiny since it would've still been relatively close to them. They probably didn't expect to start collecting worthwhile data until millions of years later when their descendants had developed ZPMs.

4- The crews upon their last days merged into Destiny's computer using the Chair device, aka the crude version of Ascension. Destiny's computer could be a collection of thousands of Ancients minds, along with Eli's girlfriend and the others who sat in it.

5- Does that sounds crazy?

I actually wouldn't be surprised if they intended to reveal that the Destiny's computer also had at least one Ancient consciousness in it. It might not be because of a one way journey, as it has only been a one way journey relatively recently (given that the Ancient civilization has spanned millions of years), and unless you go there without telling anyone it would've been easy enough to check in and send supplies/personnel through to repair the ship so people stuck there could get home.

The only possible way I see that scenario playing out is if some of the Ancients who fled the Pegasus galaxy went there as part of a larger effort to try to recover old technology since they didn't have the industry to replace what they took to Earth with them. Otherwise, if there is an Ancient consciousness in that computer, it would probably be because someone died there during an intended two-way trip.

[Chaka-Z0]

Spoiler:

The thing is that I don't know that they were interested in exploring the galaxy so much as they were interested in promoting a smart, eco-friendly colonization effort. I've seen people question why we haven't seen signs of the Ancients having a planet-wide civilization before, and my answer has always been that the Stargates allow for a much superior system. Instead of our destructive model, they were able to build single population centers around a Stargate on hundreds or thousands of worlds and have them all be linked together by a system that provided instantaneous travel time to one another. In addition to the increased connectivity that gate network provided, they didn't damage a planet's ecosystem and they were largely future-proof. They knew their civilization would span millions of years so they built everything around that, including their city ships which were capable of moving if the conditions around them became inhospitable or dangerous. If your sun is dying, if an enemy has spite-bombed a planet, radiating everything outside of your city's protective shields, or if volcanic activity became too much of a problem, as was the case where Proclarush was concerned, they could just pack up and take everything (save the outpost) to a new planet that was already scouted and seeded with a Stargate.

I can totally see the advantages but also the disadvantages. An asteroid hits the colony, dead. All of them. I guess when the Ancients were around they monitored the planets to ensure the survival of the people, so it probably worked fine, until they weren't there anymore.

There is only one major downside really to this model. A colony by itself isn't worth much in terms of military might, they become an easy prey for the multitude of hostile factions out there, which the Ancients obviously knew about. These colonies were so weak and exposed, but again they probably assumed that they would be there to defend them. An easy meal for a Snake Lord.

It's kind of cocky of them if you think about it, literally all their creations rested on the premise that they would be there for eternity to maintain them, and never thought about what would happen if they get wiped out.

It's even possible that the Milky Way was selected as a place to colonize in the first place because it had little to no advanced life 50 million years ago.

I can agree with that, they stayed hidden from the Ori until Vala and Daniel messed it up didn't they?

Spoiler:

That would explain why the Ancients spent thousands of years traveling through space before picking the Milky Way to settle in and it would explain why we have not heard a single thing about aliens from that era. No other alien technology has been said to have been recovered from that time and there has been no mention of any contact between the Ancients and others from then either. For awhile many of us assumed that the Alliance of Four Great Races stemmed from the pre-plague era, but the revelation that the Asgard only have a 100,000 year old civilization suggests the alliance was formed by the Ancients from the Pegasus galaxy who disappeared through the Stargate 10,000 years ago rather than stay on Earth and help jump start human civilization or work towards ascension.

That sounds oddly familiar... wait, that's BSG ending

It is an interesting theory, but I find myself unable to even pick one considering how little we knew about this Alliance. Not to mention that the word Fifth in the Fifth race was picked because it sounded cooler than the ''fourth'' race, as you're probably aware. That's why the Furlings were kind of a joke, they were the fill-in. The writing around the alliance is so sketchy that's probably why they never addressed it anymore.

One thing to keep in mind is that there would've been a way back for most of the Ancient's history.

Stones? They could've been around, I don't see why not. The Ori had them, I'd say the Ancients had theirs too.

The Destiny can't dial home today because its energy storage is only operating at 40% of its original design. Earlier in its history, when it was closer to the Milky Way, less energy would've been needed to dial back and the energy available would've been higher as the system wouldn't have degraded to the point that it has.

I don't know exactly when the shift came wherein dialing back became impossible. I would guess it still couldn't dial back 10,000 years ago, but I would be surprised if the same was true in the pre-plague years or even in the early Pegasus expansionist years.

Maybe, they could've had one of these O'Neill-class capacitors to power the gate, that's all you would need right. So yea surely they could come and go as they pleased in the beginning, granted there were stars around to refuel. As to where the limit to gate on Destiny was, we can't tell, but I'd say no more than a few galaxies even at 100%. Could be just one, if there was a huge void in between.

The normal matter accounts for approximately 5% of the composition of the Universe. Normal matter includes all we can see, stars, planets, etc. Technically, Destiny's journey would've taken much more than whatever amount of millions of years even at these fictional speeds but hey its a TV show so I won't dwell on it too much.

Thus, for a long time, Ancients could've come and gone if they wished to. The only reason to suspect that they legitimately hadn't been there is that, if they had, you'd think the Destiny would be in better condition as, rogue Ancient visits aside, I don't see why sanctioned visits wouldn't have results in repairs being made.

I thought about that yesterday, but it can be explained. I would say that would be the result of the gap between the Ascension moment and when the SGU crew gated in. If the Ancients were ascended, they wouldn't be able to maintain it anymore, since they probably thought they could reach it via ascended form, which we spoke about earlier, they can't just fly to Destiny.

Eventually the Ancients left on board would die / merge into the computers, and maybe the Smurfs discovered the ship soon after, and have been bombarding it ever since. They probably destroyed most of the automated repair drones, and Destiny wasn't able to mend itself fully ever again. For all we know the Destiny evaded the smurfs all these years and could not perform significant repairs without physical personnel on board, slowly degrading.

They needed someone to dial-in to go back, hell maybe one of them followed our folks on Icarus through the gate?

My assumption is that early Ancients probably had little need to visit the Destiny since it would've still been relatively close to them. They probably didn't expect to start collecting worthwhile data until millions of years later when their descendants had developed ZPMs.

You know it makes you think, why exactly was the 9th Chevron hidden in the Ancients database? Destiny stinks of a secret project of some kind, it didn't seem to be publicly acknowledged at all. It could be an Ancient Top Secret project, known to the council alone. So maybe it wasn't a rogue ancient or two after all, my theory is that there has been a constant presence of ''secret ops'' ancients giving their life to complete missions willingly. They would report their findings via the stones, maybe they were hoping to find help, a new weapon, etc. The reasons for it are as numerous as your imagination permits. Many benefits could be obtained from Destiny's mission.

I mean people here are willing to go to Mars knowing that they will never go back, its a trip of a lifetime for some. You leave it all behind and you go, would you dare to go on Destiny if you had the opportunity?

I actually wouldn't be surprised if they intended to reveal that the Destiny's computer also had at least one Ancient consciousness in it. It might not be because of a one way journey, as it has only been a one way journey relatively recently (given that the Ancient civilization has spanned millions of years), and unless you go there without telling anyone it would've been easy enough to check in and send supplies/personnel through to repair the ship so people stuck there could get home.

Agreed, we can only speculate as to where the limit was, but if we go with my secret project idea resupplying wouldn't be an issue. The other funny thing is, as further as Destiny goes, relativity has to have some kind of effect. You could gate a fresh crew each day to Destiny and on the ship 50 years would go by, how crazy would that be? But SG never really addressed relativity, so I'm not factoring this in. The show would get way too complicated for people to follow.

That is why I believe that Destiny was an Arc of sort. Explorers, scientists, secret ops or whoever would go on Destiny and upon their death merge into the ship, therefore they would remain with the ship for the entire voyage. That would make the Destiny a ''smart'' ship, since actual real consciousness would operate its systems, augmenting its chance at survival.

Think about it, their consciousnesses would stay on the ship forever, so they could all see what's up with the CBR. That's how they cheated ascension without having the knowledge for it. Maybe they paid the price too, imagine having your mind stuck in a ship for millions of years.

The only possible way I see that scenario playing out is if some of the Ancients who fled the Pegasus galaxy went there as part of a larger effort to try to recover old technology since they didn't have the industry to replace what they took to Earth with them. Otherwise, if there is an Ancient consciousness in that computer, it would probably be because someone died there during an intended two-way trip.

Never thought about that, but that would be a very logical reason. But again, we didn't know much from the cancelled show what EXACTLY was the mission, it was very vague. Again, why the secrecy? Why would they not tell their own people about this mission, they had the details of all their outposts in the Atlantis Database which could've fallen into enemy hands. But they went to some length to hide the information about the 9th chevron, that tells me there was a really juicy reason for it. Destiny isn't the work of a couple rogue scientists, no way.

[DigiFluid]

Even if you discount the '50 million years' estimate about the Earth DHD as being an inaccurate in-universe estimation, the pilot of Stargate Atlantis gives the timeline of the Atlanteans abandoning Earth -- long after the rise and fall of their civilization in the Milky Way -- as "several million years ago." Additionally (and I'll confess I don't remember the exact references here), later dating information provided in Atlantis narrowed the Earth exodus timeframe down to 3-5 million years; again, that event happening after the rise and fall of Ancient civilization in the Milky Way.

As much as I love SGU, the "hundreds of thousands of years" line is plainly wrong in the context of the franchise. Destiny cannot be any newer than 3-5 million years old, and more likely fits into that 50+ million years age range.

I don't find that particularly unbelievable in this franchise. Many other Ancient constructs have stood and continued to function for many millions of years. Frankly, I think the state of disrepair that we see Destiny in during SGU lends even more credence to the 50+ mya age range just because it's one of the only Ancient constructs we saw in the entire franchise that actually seems like it might fall apart and stop working at any moment. Virtually nothing else we've ever seen has been quite so fragile and decrepit a state.

[Xaeden]

There is only one major downside really to this model. A colony by itself isn't worth much in terms of military might, they become an easy prey for the multitude of hostile factions out there

The Ancients said that they never faced a threat that they couldn't dispense of with their technological superiority before the Wraith, and the reason for that was because the Wraith had enough numbers to wear down the Ancient's resources bit by bit.

Sure, if you crammed your population into, say a dozen worlds, all within a short distance from one another, you'd have a denser number of ships available in each of those solar systems, and nearby fleets could more quickly come to the aid of a colony under attack. But a city ship has a pretty easy life. Atlantis' shields were able to withstand the combined firepower of the Wraith armada for years before they opted to sink the city. Even an outpost with a single ZPM should easily be able to last long enough for the appropriate number of ships to come to their aid as all Ancient ships should be able to get from any point in the Milky Way to any other point within a few days or a week max. And that's even assuming the Ancient facility needs outside help as their drones can easily take out entire fleets. Then there's an added bonus: Because of the gate network and because the Ancients are so spread out (preventing an enemy from assailing all their locations at once), they can easily get resupplied. Need more drones? Dial up the gate. Need another ZPM? Dial up the gate. Any one facility essentially would have had all the spare ZPMs and drones their galaxy wide population could muster at its disposal.

Things might've been more difficult for the Ancients when they first moved into the Milky Way and it's therefore possible that they didn't spread out as much then, but by the time they achieved a galaxy-wide population and their technology was even partially on par with what it was at their peek, it would have been insanely difficult to take out even a single Ancient installation. The Wraith did it because they could out breed and out produce the Ancients. They had no need to for mining operations and they had no need for shipyards. They could grow a new Hive or Cruiser on any planet that had sufficient energy, so the Ancients couldn't target their production capabilities, whereas the Wraith could very much do that for the Ancients. By sending wave after wave, the Wraith were able to get the Ancients to expend their drones and use up their ZPMs. Combined with presumed victories against Ancient factories that produced new ZPMs and drones and presumed victories against mining operations, eventually the Ancients simply lost the ability to resupply everybody until all that was left was Atlantis and some other small pockets throughout the galaxy.

The Ancient's model is not ideal for someone with the Tauri's level of technology, but with what the Ancients had available to them, they would've been sitting pretty until the Wraith came along and just swarmed the them with untold numbers until they ran out of resources to fight back.

I can agree with that, they stayed hidden from the Ori until Vala and Daniel messed it up didn't they?

Maybe. One fan theory is that the reason for the similarities between the Ori plague and the plague that killed the Ancients is that the Ori became aware of the Ancients and unleashed the plague on them. After the Ancients ascended they blocked the Ori from becoming aware that there were humans living in the Milky Way. Who knew what before then is unclear.

I find myself unable to even pick one considering how little we knew about this Alliance. Not to mention that the word Fifth in the Fifth race was picked because it sounded cooler than the ''fourth'' race, as you're probably aware.

All I can tell you is that it's the only thing that fits these two bits of information:

MORGAN LE FAY
When we first abandoned Atlantis all those millennia ago, the Earth was so harsh, its people so primitive by comparison, there was no hope of living among them as Lantians or rebuilding our society. So, instead we spread out to many lands, some of us planting a few small seeds of civilization among the first tribes of man. Others making their way to the Stargate at your southern pole. Still others choosing to live the remainder of our lives in seclusion and meditation. Merlin and I both chose the latter path.

-Sg-1's The Pegasus Project: Season 10, Episode 3.

ASGARD
My people are dying. The fact that, as you tell us, our brothers are already gone, only reinforces the need. If we do not do this, our whole civilization, a hundred thousand years of history, will be wiped out forever. I cannot allow that to happen.

-Atlantis' The Lost Tribe Part II: Season 5, Episode 11.

We know for a fact that a third group of Ancients left Earth 10,000 years ago. We know that Janus was one of them and that he had enough supplies available to him to rebuild his time traveling jumper. What the others did we have never been explicitly told. One fan theory is that they became the people who created Reese. I lean toward them being the ones to have formed the alliance because they are the only known Ancients to have had a presence in the Milky Way within the 100,000 year time frame of the Asgard's civilization (they may have also broken up into additional groups).

We also know that the Ancients left Atlantis 10,000 years ago expecting to find some degree of their old Milky Way civilization and that when they learned that they would have to rebuild, practically from scratch, those two groups who remained on Earth gave up, instead choosing to ascend or live among the humans. This next part is indeed speculative, but it's not unreasonable to assume that the third group wanted to see if they could find a way to continue on elsewhere in the galaxy and perhaps the alliance was a way to try to do that given that it's purpose was to exchange information.

Also, that the Ancients thought they had a hope of rebuilding on Earth suggests that they never returned to the Milky Way before that point (a reasonable precaution if they had, until their moment of desperation, considered it off limits to ensure that they didn't contract the plague just in case remained active there), which suggests that the the alliance could not have been formed by Ancients living between 100,000 to 10,000 years ago.

Stones? They could've been around, I don't see why not. The Ori had them, I'd say the Ancients had theirs too.

I meant a physical way back since my position is that the Destiny's gate would've been able to dial back until the Destiny became unable to store enough power to do so at its increased distance from the Milky Way.

Maybe, they could've had one of these O'Neill-class capacitors to power the gate, that's all you would need right. So yea surely they could come and go as they pleased in the beginning, granted there were stars around to refuel. As to where the limit to gate on Destiny was, we can't tell, but I'd say no more than a few galaxies even at 100%. Could be just one, if there was a huge void in between.

Regarding the Destiny not being able to dial back at 100% capacity, the Icarus expedition was almost able to get home by combining their energy reserves with the seed ship's reserves. Keep in mind that the Destiny was not at its full 40%, the seed ship likely wasn't at its max either, and the seed ship probably couldn't reach 100% either. Thus, it's unlikely that the combined energy they hoped to use to dial home exceeded what the Destiny is capable of storing when its capacitors are in near optimal condition.

You know it makes you think, why exactly was the 9th Chevron hidden in the Ancients database?

Why do you think it was hidden? It was just said to have been in the Ancient database and, like everything else in there, lacked detailed instructions. Earth was keeping it secret and maybe for a good long time. We don't know when the information about Destiny was first discovered. Research, planning, building, securing funding, and failing and then restoring to creating a game to locate a person capable of solving their problem, and finding a planet that could be used to dial the Destiny (if they didn't have that one in their back pocket for a bit) could easily have taken place across seasons 2 to 5 of Atlantis.

We do know that Icarus was established two years prior to the start of SGU, which would place it around the start of Atlantis' season 4. That means everything minus the failing/game creation part had to fit into the two year gap between season 2, when Earth first got access to the full database (or toward the end of season 1 when they got part of). That's a short time to plan a project and build a facility, so I seriously doubt they had any problem finding information about the 9th chevron in the database.

Also, if the Ancients had communication stones in Destiny at any point and the Ancients didn't all leave through the gate, thus taking them with them, the Earth crew probably would've found them by season 2. It's unlikely that they would have been discarded on a planet or out an airlock before your proposed mind upload. And where are the bodies? Did one Ancient remain behind to dispose of them all and then kill or stand him/herself on a planet?

I mean people here are willing to go to Mars knowing that they will never go back, its a trip of a lifetime for some. You leave it all behind and you go, would you dare to go on Destiny if you had the opportunity?

There are humans on Earth who they would've sent on such a possibly one-way mission had not the Icarus personnel ended up there by mistake. The question, though, is why would it be one-way for the Ancients who would've been able to gate to the Destiny when it's power capacitors were operating at a much higher efficiency and who, unless they gated there without approval, would have been able to get supplies to fix those capacitors if they degraded beyond the point where they could store enough energy to gate back? Also, additional, portable power sources could have been transferred over to supplement Destiny's reserves. This is why I can't imagine that Ancients went there with the backing of other Ancients back home and then got trapped there.

Agreed, we can only speculate as to where the limit was, but if we go with my secret project idea resupplying wouldn't be an issue.

Why? If it's a secret project that is sanctioned by a council of Ancients, I doubt they would want the people they sent over to be trapped there without supplies.

Think about it, their consciousnesses would stay on the ship forever, so they could all see what's up with the CBR. That's how they cheated ascension without having the knowledge for it. Maybe they paid the price too, imagine having your mind stuck in a ship for millions of years.

If you wanted to cheat death prior to ascension by uploading your consciousness to a computer you could have just done it back home. The only reason to upload your consciousness to the Destiny is if you're trapped and have no other option because why would you assume that a lone ship by itself out in the wide universe would outlast your civilization? It did, but if you were a gambling person, a computer stored somewhere in a city ship that can be repaired and maintained by your people is where you would want to be.

Again, why the secrecy?

I don't mind speculating that the knowledge of the Destiny was kept from the wider Ancient population, but there's nothing to support that so you're asking why a problem that you created is a problem. Again, it was just said to have been in the Ancient database.

[Chaka-Z0]

Sure, if you crammed your population into, say a dozen worlds, all within a short distance from one another, you'd have a denser number of ships available in each of those solar systems, and nearby fleets could more quickly come to the aid of a colony under attack.

Also technological advancements could've been much easier by sharing discoveries. Interplanetary wars are to be expected, but sometimes war advances tech at a much faster rate than peace.

But a city ship has a pretty easy life

.

Yes, but those colonies didn't have that luxury. Again, it is dependent on the fact that Ancients are around constantly for protection.

Maybe. One fan theory is that the reason for the similarities between the Ori plague and the plague that killed the Ancients is that the Ori became aware of the Ancients and unleashed the plague on them. After the Ancients ascended they blocked the Ori from becoming aware that there were humans living in the Milky Way. Who knew what before then is unclear.

I like that theory. They did know exactly where to go did they?

All I can tell you is that it's the only thing that fits these two bits of information:
(...)

We know for a fact that a third group of Ancients left Earth 10,000 years ago.

I can't say you didn't do your research, I always assumed that the Ancients themselves became too spread out and few in numbers to possibly have survived through interbreeding with other species, not too long after forming that alliance. That's how Neanderthal disappeared, and they were in relatively great numbers too.

We also know that the Ancients left Atlantis 10,000 years ago expecting to find some degree of their old Milky Way civilization and that when they learned that they would have to rebuild, practically from scratch, those two groups who remained on Earth gave up, instead choosing to ascend or live among the humans. This next part is indeed speculative, but it's not unreasonable to assume that the third group wanted to see if they could find a way to continue on elsewhere in the galaxy and perhaps the alliance was a way to try to do that given that it's purpose was to exchange information.

I certainly would do the same. Imagine you're stuck on a planet with primitive people, knowing your kind will disappear, you would desperately try to find your kin elsewhere or a semblance of your previous life.

I meant a physical way back since my position is that the Destiny's gate would've been able to dial back until the Destiny became unable to store enough power to do so at its increased distance from the Milky Way.

Oh I see. Well yes, physical travel would've been possible, but since dialing out Destiny would use a reasonably high amount of power, the home base could simply dial-in, use the stones and get a status report.

I based my assumption that stones were available at that time on this logic:

1- We found a set off stones in Merlin's stash, on Earth, which connects to the Ori Galaxy
2- The Ancients fled the Ori Galaxy prior to their arrival in the MW
3- Destiny was launched from the MW

Regarding the Destiny not being able to dial back at 100% capacity, the Icarus expedition was almost able to get home by combining their energy reserves with the seed ship's reserves. Keep in mind that the Destiny was not at its full 40%, the seed ship likely wasn't at its max either, and the seed ship probably couldn't reach 100% either. Thus, it's unlikely that the combined energy they hoped to use to dial home exceeded what the Destiny is capable of storing when its capacitors are in near optimal condition.

Fair enough. I have one objection though. This seed ship had been hijacked therefore was way behind its planned route. I'm not entirely convinced that Destiny, in normal circumstances, could've cached up to the seed ship to perform such a maneuver. Sure they could've send commands remotely to pause a seed ship in emergencies, but that would mean stalling the mission possibly compromising it entirely.

Why do you think it was hidden? It was just said to have been in the Ancient database and, like everything else in there, lacked detailed instructions.

This is the best way to hide something. Keep in mind that most Ancients probably had access to all important systems, so this would be similar to reading the entire dictionary for us to find a couple words on one page. When pirates buried treasures, they often dug elaborate holes to lure treasure hunters into a ''fake hole''. Meanwhile their chests were buried under a tree in plain sight.

How many years did Rush spend trying to break the 9th chevron? The level of mathematics required for this was high enough that it took our smartest genius to break it. A career scientist, and I think Rush is quite an intelligent man, wasn't able to. Only a ''freak of nature'' could. It was probably a safeguard against ''primitive'' humans who would try to find out where this leads, just like the code to access Destiny's bridge.

Why all these safeguards if nobody else but them could possibly know the address? They expected us to take over eventually, that was always clear to me. Just like Atlantis was. But they didn't want the Tau'ri to rush it, they needed to understand much more before possibly grasping Destiny's complex mission.

We do know that Icarus was established two years prior to the start of SGU, which would place it around the start of Atlantis' season 4. That means everything minus the failing/game creation part had to fit into the two year gap between season 2, when Earth first got access to the full database (or toward the end of season 1 when they got part of). That's a short time to plan a project and build a facility, so I seriously doubt they had any problem finding information about the 9th chevron in the database.

How is that surprising in the SG universe? They built ships in what seemed like months. An Icarus base in my opinion is far less complex and much faster to build. We're talking about concrete structures on a steady stellar body, not as hard to build as a flying fortress with a thousand systems. Considering this, Icarus base could've built well within a year I'd say, depending on the priority of this project.

And where are the bodies? Did one Ancient remain behind to dispose of them all and then kill or stand him/herself on a planet?

Where did the scientist body go when he was frozen in the chair room? Doors closed, some fog, and he's gone. Two possible scenarios,

1- The body is stored in a secret trap under the chair or something, which seems remote to me considering there's no use for that, we know stasis doesn't work for that long. So I would go with #2

2- Somehow the room freezes to the zero absolute, essentially destroying any physical evidences of the organic nature of our bodies. A quick and painless death for the users.

There are humans on Earth who they would've sent on such a possibly one-way mission had not the Icarus personnel ended up there by mistake. The question, though, is why would it be one-way for the Ancients who would've been able to gate to the Destiny when it's power capacitors were operating at a much higher efficiency and who, unless they gated there without approval, would have been able to get supplies to fix those capacitors if they degraded beyond the point where they could store enough energy to gate back? Also, additional, portable power sources could have been transferred over to supplement Destiny's reserves. This is why I can't imagine that Ancients went there with the backing of other Ancients back home and then got trapped there.

Yea you pretty much destroyed my theory so I'll concede that perhaps that wasn't an issue until the very end, close to our era possibly.

Why? If it's a secret project that is sanctioned by a council of Ancients, I doubt they would want the people they sent over to be trapped there without supplies.

Again gating in to send supplies wouldn't be an issue, there are plenty of ways even at that time of the ''old'' Ancient tech to generate sufficient power to gate in. But as times goes, Destiny would require more and more power to dial out, and a portable energy source comparable to ZPM didn'T exist at the time. There would come a time when the later teams gating in could not be 100% guarenteed of a way back (if we take my previous comment on seed ship dialing). The risks of compromising the mission would be too great, and they could not have this considering Destiny's mission is one of endurance, built to last and never stop. Like here in really cold winters, we had those old trucks that you keep the engine on even when you stop, or it won't start back.

Keep in mind the O'Neill Capacitor is not generating extra power, its modulating it. Something similar to a Naquadah generator perhaps, but would that be sufficient? I don't think so.

If you wanted to cheat death prior to ascension by uploading your consciousness to a computer you could have just done it back home. The only reason to upload your consciousness to the Destiny is if you're trapped and have no other option because why would you assume that a lone ship by itself out in the wide universe would outlast your civilization? It did, but if you were a gambling person, a computer stored somewhere in a city ship that can be repaired and maintained by your people is where you would want to be.

Yep which is why I say that at the late stage of Destiny's mission the reason why the ship seemed so empty is that not many Ancients were willing to go on a one-way trip with such a grim endgame in sight. Maybe they realized that they never could accomplish Destiny's mission, and needed to ensure their legacy would transfer over to us. They also understood (as proven in Atlantis) that hand-feeding us technology and literally having a big button saying *Press here to gate on Destiny* is not a good idea and might end up with us killing ourselves.

Eventually the plague hits, but we addressed that already.

I don't mind speculating that the knowledge of the Destiny was kept from the wider Ancient population, but there's nothing to support that so you're asking why a problem that you created is a problem. Again, it was just said to have been in the Ancient database.

Yea you're right, it was my prerogative that it was a secret hidden in plain sight.