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  1. #1
    Second Lieutenant GodAtum's Avatar
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    Default Social Credit System?

    having watched the Black Mirror episode Nosedive and reading the news about China's social credit system, maybe Roddenbury missed trick in Star Trek. As there is no "money" as we know it, maybe people are rated in a similar way?
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  2. #2
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by GodAtum View Post
    having watched the Black Mirror episode Nosedive and reading the news about China's social credit system, maybe Roddenbury missed trick in Star Trek. As there is no "money" as we know it, maybe people are rated in a similar way?
    As there is no "money" as we know it depends upon which incarnation of Trek you're talking about. TOS had money. This is shown on the program by Trader Cyrano Jones selling Tribbles and other mechandise at a space station, I think Ben Childress? and his fellow miners were selling their product to the Federation.

    It was only later in TNG era that it was stated that they had no money.

    Interesting side note.. Discovery is supposed to be TOS era or close... Are they using money? did they do a retcon to match the communist vision of later eras?
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    We have been through this before. Star Trek has never had money even TOS.
    Quote Originally Posted by aretood2 View Post
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  4. #4
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Remember the scene in "The Trouble With Tribbles", with Cyrano Jones and the shopkeeper, who was haggling with Chekov & Uhuru over the price of Tribbles? The unit of exchange was credits. And then Cyrano chose to give his sample to Uhuru and the shopkeeper griped about him ruining the market?

    I don't care if you call it dollars, rubles, credits, pounds or chopped liver, money is money, and they had it.
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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    "Perhaps there's something to be said for assimilation after all."
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  5. #5
    Lieutenant Colonel Gatefan1976's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    Remember the scene in "The Trouble With Tribbles", with Cyrano Jones and the shopkeeper, who was haggling with Chekov & Uhuru over the price of Tribbles? The unit of exchange was credits. And then Cyrano chose to give his sample to Uhuru and the shopkeeper griped about him ruining the market?

    I don't care if you call it dollars, rubles, credits, pounds or chopped liver, money is money, and they had it.
    And in Encounter at Farpoint, S1, Ep1 of TNG, Dr crusher bills the "cost" of the fabric she liked to the Enterprise, therefore proving TNG is not a "communist utopia without money".
    Choose one.
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  6. #6
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
    And in Encounter at Farpoint, S1, Ep1 of TNG, Dr crusher bills the "cost" of the fabric she liked to the Enterprise, therefore proving TNG is not a "communist utopia without money".
    Choose one.
    TNG also says "no money"; in First Contact, Picard explaining the Federation to Lily Sloane.
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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    "Perhaps there's something to be said for assimilation after all."
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    Remember the scene in "The Trouble With Tribbles", with Cyrano Jones and the shopkeeper, who was haggling with Chekov & Uhuru over the price of Tribbles? The unit of exchange was credits. And then Cyrano chose to give his sample to Uhuru and the shopkeeper griped about him ruining the market?

    I don't care if you call it dollars, rubles, credits, pounds or chopped liver, money is money, and they had it.
    So you are going to information that contradicts your POV? Got it. You need to understand how trade works
    Quote Originally Posted by aretood2 View Post
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  8. #8
    Colonel P-90_177's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Earth has no need of money. You are provided for no matter your circumstances and there must be some kind of barter system for rare objects that cannot be replicated. But Sisko's father for example owns his restaurant because he loves cooking high quality meals for people. People still own property of their own. How they obtain that on Earth is unclear.

    Elsewhere in the federation it is clear there is an economy of some sort. There are traders like Jones and cheats out for money like Mudd. Janeway even mentions in an anecdote about a Vulcan trader on Vulcan itself who tried to haggle prices with her and Tuvok once.

    Starfleet officers also must have a stipend of sorts because how else do they pay for things from Quark on DS9?

    But in terms of every day use for people on Earth and planets that adopt their system, no there is no money.

    I don't actually know much about China's social credit system but it seems to me that there must be jobs on Earth that people still wouldn't want to do. In my opinion given what we know of the 23rd Century I'd say that the average citizen is probably simply asked to perform roles that are of service to everyone else. Dirty low down jobs like say things in waste management or such are probably divided up so that people take turns to perform them so that it's fair. There probably is some form of meritocracy in place too. After all there are still grand houses and smaller apartments and who lives in what has to be decided some how. It may even be a matter of age or family size. Probably a mix of all of the above. No one would give a 19 ear old kid who has just moved out of his parent's house a 5 bedroom townhouse for example.

    One thing I have always considered though is that Earth is paradise for artisans. For myself, I'm writer. I love to tell stories. I want to make it my career. But I don't want to get rich from it. I just want to be able to do it without needing to worry about money every week. I want people to read it. And sure I want A LOT of people to read my stuff but I have no real material desires. I am competitive I want people to consider my work better than everyone else and I want to work at getting my writing to that level. But I desire prestige. Not wealth.

    In my opinion Earth must be all about people like this. If you make Wine, you make it to be the best wine you can make. If you build furniture you just want to make the best you can so that others can enjoy it. People with that mindset don't need money. They just want to work at their craft.
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  9. #9
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    Dirty low down jobs like say things in waste management or such are probably divided up so that people take turns to perform them so that it's fair. There probably is some form of meritocracy in place too. After all there are still grand houses and smaller apartments and who lives in what has to be decided some how. It may even be a matter of age or family size. Probably a mix of all of the above. No one would give a 19 ear old kid who has just moved out of his parent's house a 5 bedroom townhouse for example.
    heh. Show me one communist or socialist society that has ever existed where those on the top of the pile are forced to do such work, or who are denied their townhouse.
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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    "Perhaps there's something to be said for assimilation after all."
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  10. #10
    First Lieutenant Chaka-Z0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    In my opinion Earth must be all about people like this. If you make Wine, you make it to be the best wine you can make. If you build furniture you just want to make the best you can so that others can enjoy it. People with that mindset don't need money. They just want to work at their craft.
    Wouldn't that be nice? Sadly some people just want to see the world burn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    heh. Show me one communist or socialist society that has ever existed where those on the top of the pile are forced to do such work, or who are denied their townhouse.
    Annoyed has escaped from the political threads, sorry guys *puts leash back on*

  11. #11
    Captain pscard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    TNG also says "no money"; in First Contact, Picard explaining the Federation to Lily Sloane.

    True.
    Here's the full scene:

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  12. #12
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
    Wouldn't that be nice? Sadly some people just want to see the world burn.



    Annoyed has escaped from the political threads, sorry guys *puts leash back on*
    Quiet, you lizard creature!
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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  13. #13
    Colonel P-90_177's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    heh. Show me one communist or socialist society that has ever existed where those on the top of the pile are forced to do such work, or who are denied their townhouse.
    I'm not about to make this thread overly political. At the end of the day, while the Federation is clearly some form of Socialist society it is clear that their form of society has not been invented yet. We can't get our head wrapped round it because that philosophy has yet to be fully conceived of in the way that Marx envisioned Communism.
    I make the same argument with the debate over whether Starfleet is a military or not. It can be seen from our observance that it is a military organisation because hell from our contemporary perspective that's what it looks like, but that doesn't mean that by the 24th Century their philosophy makes it so. It's a military structure put to a scientific and exploratory force. We don't have anything like that in the modern day so it's not so easy to see. Particularly when they're clearly trained to defend the federation too.

    If I had to guess at how you'd assign people to do whatever low down and dirty jobs there are it'd probably be best thought of simply as a form of conscription. Just rather than military conscription it's a sort of civil conscription. A fair example of this is back in DS9. Remember how Jake used to do odd jobs to help out Chief O'Brien (Civil Defence in particular). Perform tasks that help the whole.
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  14. #14
    Colonel P-90_177's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
    Wouldn't that be nice? Sadly some people just want to see the world burn.



    Annoyed has escaped from the political threads, sorry guys *puts leash back on*
    This is true. I call them Capitalists.
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  15. #15
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    I'm not about to make this thread overly political. At the end of the day, while the Federation is clearly some form of Socialist society it is clear that their form of society has not been invented yet.
    That is because what makes it work has not been invented yet. Practically unlimited energy supplies combined with matter-energy conversion.
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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    "Perhaps there's something to be said for assimilation after all."
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  16. #16
    Colonel P-90_177's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    That is because what makes it work has not been invented yet. Practically unlimited energy supplies combined with matter-energy conversion.
    Well yes exactly. Practically all roles that we would consider tedious work by today's standards are near null and void by the 24th Century. Intelligent computer systems can easily replace drivers and manufacturers. Replicators can provide both goods and food for practically all every day needs. Transporters take all time out of both travel and movement of cargo. Menial jobs are therefore reduced to those who perform a maintenance role. Engineers essentially. Which may explain why there are so many apparent Engineers in starfleet who are NonComs like O'Brien.
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  17. #17
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    Well yes exactly. Practically all roles that we would consider tedious work by today's standards are near null and void by the 24th Century. Intelligent computer systems can easily replace drivers and manufacturers. Replicators can provide both goods and food for practically all every day needs. Transporters take all time out of both travel and movement of cargo. Menial jobs are therefore reduced to those who perform a maintenance role. Engineers essentially. Which may explain why there are so many apparent Engineers in starfleet who are NonComs like O'Brien.
    That's part of it. But unlimited energy and matter-energy conversion translate to unlimited quantities of resources. With unlimited access, there is no need to compete for them.
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
    - Starship Voyager's Holographic Doctor
    "Perhaps there's something to be said for assimilation after all."
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  18. #18
    Colonel mad_gater's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    That's part of it. But unlimited energy and matter-energy conversion translate to unlimited quantities of resources. With unlimited access, there is no need to compete for them.
    Yes. And while starships were highly energy efficient they weren't unlimited in this area...they still needed fuel in the form of antimatter to drive the production of the needed energy. This is why access to even simple replicators was heavily rationed in Voyager...they were stranded far from any viable sources of antimatter and needed to conserve as much energy as possible.

  19. #19
    Colonel P-90_177's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by Annoyed View Post
    That's part of it. But unlimited energy and matter-energy conversion translate to unlimited quantities of resources. With unlimited access, there is no need to compete for them.
    Indeed. Although I've always figured that matter replication still, at least in its most efficient form, still require raw material to be put in and the closer the raw material is in composition to what you want to get out of it the less energy it takes to make it. So say if you want to make say a metal chair in an industrial replicator it'll do it faster and more efficiently if you simply give it the desired quantity of the correct metal already.
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  20. #20
    Major Annoyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Social Credit System?

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    Indeed. Although I've always figured that matter replication still, at least in its most efficient form, still require raw material to be put in and the closer the raw material is in composition to what you want to get out of it the less energy it takes to make it. So say if you want to make say a metal chair in an industrial replicator it'll do it faster and more efficiently if you simply give it the desired quantity of the correct metal already.
    As I understand it, Trek is able to take raw energy, possibly generated by antimatgter as its starships are powered with and convert it direct to matter of whatever sort. Pattern in on one end, ribeye steak or barroom stool out the other.

    Why would they need the desired type of metal, or any other matter as raw materials?
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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    "Perhaps there's something to be said for assimilation after all."
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