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    #46
    Some of these questions are dealt with in season 3's "Vengence." For example, an iratus bug passes on human genetic material to their offspring if they lay their eggs soon after feeding, while the human subject dies, much as Nivao attempted to explain:

    MICHAEL (voiceover): I allowed the bug to gorge itself, to absorb as much human D.N.A. as possible. This, of course, led to the death of the subject.

    MICHAEL (voiceover): The timing of the feeding was critical -- ensuring that the bug laid its next egg quickly, before the genetic material could filter out of its body.

    MICHAEL (voiceover): The embryo then contained enough human D.N.A. for me to manipulate.

    MICHAEL (voiceover): I accelerated the development, augmenting the complexity of its physiology. There were several adjustments, several mistakes ...
    Also as Nivao said:

    McKAY: Which is, as we know, exactly how the Wraith evolved. I mean, iratus bug bites human, human D.N.A. mixes with theirs, a thousand years go by, Wraith.
    Regarding the matter of what primitive Wraith fed on...

    I wouldn't assume that humans didn't find a way to survive on the planet that the Wraith evolved on. They may have developed fortified centers that protected their core population while the proto-Wraith picked off farmers and the like. It's not like they wouldn't have had time to prepare since the iratus bugs would've slowly turned into humanoid killing machines over a long period of time. And if humans survived there long enough for the Wraith to become intelligent, the Wraith could have then turned humans into cattle whose population they tightly regulated.

    Also, it would've presumably taken some time before the Wraith were locked into only being able to feed on humans. When the proto-Wraith were in a similar state as Michael's beasts from "Vengeance" it's very much conceivable that they, like the iratus bugs, could survive by feeding on a wide range of animal life. The dependency on humans may have come after they escaped that world and gained access to more humans, allowing them to become ever more human as they fed on them.

    How the Wraith spread after contact with the Ancients is a matter that can only be speculated on since it was never addressed in the show. Personally, I tend to think that they were advanced enough to learn from observation how to use the Stargate and so Ancient contact allowed them to spread to many worlds. Like the bugs that they are, the Ancients may have wiped them out on one planet, only for populations to pop up elsewhere. This could've gone on for a long time.

    In another act of pure speculation on my part, I have wondered if spacegates were an attempt to stop the spread of the Wraith. The Ancients could've been in the process of converting all the gates when the Wraith first developed ships to bypass this tactic, thus resulting in the Ancients abandoning the plan to convert all gates in the galaxy. How they developed technology quickly is easily explained by Wraith worshippers. Some converted human scientists from advanced worlds or converted Ancients could have led to massive leaps forward. Hell, their organic ship designs fit them so perfectly that we think that they developed the technology, but for all we know it could've been lifted completely from a now dead human civilization. Or not. Maybe they infested human ships and converted humans into worshippers who operated those ships for them before they slowly figured out how to design a version of the ships we see today.

    The point of all this is simply to say that even though we don't know what happened, there are ways that the writers could've explained their development using what has thus far been revealed.

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      #47
      Again I face the same problem.
      Michael manipulated the DNA, much as Beckett did with the retrovirus that caused Ellia and bug Sheppard, it's not a "natural" evolution.
      McKay's "1000 years later you get a wraith" doesn't stand up either as when unaltered, Iratus bugs kill their victims.
      I agree with all of you who have posited that we simply don't have enough "canon lore" to reach a really good answer for this. As for not being able to live on food, the ep with the prison island the wraith in charge stated that they -could- live on normal food, but found it less satisfying, which indicates an active choice by the wraith to feed off other entities directly.
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        #48
        Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
        Again I face the same problem.
        Michael manipulated the DNA, much as Beckett did with the retrovirus that caused Ellia and bug Sheppard, it's not a "natural" evolution.
        McKay's "1000 years later you get a wraith" doesn't stand up either as when unaltered, Iratus bugs kill their victims.
        I agree with all of you who have posited that we simply don't have enough "canon lore" to reach a really good answer for this. As for not being able to live on food, the ep with the prison island the wraith in charge stated that they -could- live on normal food, but found it less satisfying, which indicates an active choice by the wraith to feed off other entities directly.
        I don't want to sound frustrated or harsh, but, am I not clear that what happened to Ellia and Shepard, and the retrovirus, have nothing to do with the Iratus bugs evolving into the Wraith? And that the bugs killing their victims also has no relation to their own evolution? Why do you think it does? Why do you believe the victims have to stay alive for the bugs to evolve over thousands of years? Can you answer that? It would probably help clearing things up as we keep going in circles.

        McKay's remark should also not be taken literally. He just throws around a random rounded number to make a point, everyone does that. It's like me saying I said this a hundred times already

        With regards to the food, "less satisfying" does not necessarily mean they just don't like it. It could also mean that normal food just doesn't sustain them as much as feeding on humans do. Remember, Wraith can regenerate wounds and live a very long time by feeding on humans. Ordinary food simply wouldn't provide enough "fuel" to achieve that, they would have to eat a lot. Similarly, they may rely on humans, simply because larger creatures have more "energy". Most common animals have a much shorter life span, hence less energy to feed on. And if you eat one thing long enough you may become reliant on it. It frequently happens that if a vegetarian, and a vegan more so, can eventually no longer eat meat at all as it would make them sick simply because they stopped eating it and the body adapts.

        In "The Defiant One" we see the same energy bugs as seen in SG-1's "Prodigy". The Wraith seems to be grabbing them and feeding off of them, implying that the Wraith can still feed on non-humans. But much like normal food it's just not enough to sustain them.

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          #49
          Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
          Again I face the same problem.
          Michael manipulated the DNA, much as Beckett did with the retrovirus that caused Ellia and bug Sheppard, it's not a "natural" evolution.
          Michael allowed an iratus bug to naturally feed on a human and naturally spread human genetic material to its offspring. Michael then used science to speed up the process (and ultimately manipulated it to have the specific traits that he desired). This was explicitly stated in the quote I provided:

          MICHAEL (voiceover): "I accelerated the development, augmenting the complexity of its physiology. There were several adjustments, several mistakes ..."

          So while his beasts were not the product of natural evolution, in explaining how he manipulated the natural process, he addresses how that natural process works. That is the point.

          McKay's "1000 years later you get a wraith" doesn't stand up either as when unaltered, Iratus bugs kill their victims.
          As Nivao explained, the Wraith evolved from iratus bugs who absorbed human DNA and passed that DNA along to their offspring. Their offspring then continued to feed on humans and, in doing so, continued to become more human. You're continuing to insist that humans were turned into the Wraith after they were fed on by iratus bugs and then saying that this doesn't make sense because we know humans die when they are fed on even though my quote supported what Nivao said:

          MICHAEL (voiceover): "I allowed the bug to gorge itself, to absorb as much human D.N.A. as possible. This, of course, led to the death of the subject."

          MICHAEL (voiceover): "The timing of the feeding was critical -- ensuring that the bug laid its next egg quickly, before the genetic material could filter out of its body."


          That part right there explains how the Wraith evolved naturally. Michael allowed an iratus bug to feed on a human right before it would've laid its eggs. He explains that this process kills the human and then he explains that the human's DNA is naturally passed on to its offspring. The lines that appear after this part of the quote address how he manipulated the process.

          Also, please read Mckay's line very closely. Particularly this part: "human D.N.A. mixes with theirs..." He does not say that iratus bug DNA mixes with human DNA. Rather, he explicitly says that human DNA mixes with iratus bug DNA. Hence, it is the iratus bugs that transformed into the Wraith, not their human victims.

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
            Michael allowed an iratus bug to naturally feed on a human and naturally spread human genetic material to its offspring. Michael then used science to speed up the process (and ultimately manipulated it to have the specific traits that he desired). This was explicitly stated in the quote I provided:

            MICHAEL (voiceover): "I accelerated the development, augmenting the complexity of its physiology. There were several adjustments, several mistakes ..."

            So while his beasts were not the product of natural evolution, in explaining how he manipulated the natural process, he addresses how that natural process works. That is the point.



            As Nivao explained, the Wraith evolved from iratus bugs who absorbed human DNA and passed that DNA along to their offspring, who then continued to feed on humans and, in doing so, continued to become more human. You're continuing to insist that humans were turned into the Wraith after they were fed on by iratus bugs and then saying that this doesn't make sense because we know humans die when they are fed on even though my quote supported what Nivao said:

            MICHAEL (voiceover): "I allowed the bug to gorge itself, to absorb as much human D.N.A. as possible. This, of course, led to the death of the subject."

            MICHAEL (voiceover): "The timing of the feeding was critical -- ensuring that the bug laid its next egg quickly, before the genetic material could filter out of its body."


            That part right there explains how the Wraith evolved naturally. Michael allowed an iratus bug to feed on a human right before it would've laid its eggs. He explains that this process kills the human and then he explains that the human's DNA is naturally passed on to its offspring. The lines that appear after this part of the quote address how he manipulated the process.

            Also, please read Mckay's line very closely. Particularly this part: "human D.N.A. mixes with theirs..." He does not say that iratus bug DNA mixes with human DNA. Rather, he explicitly says that human DNA mixes with iratus bug DNA. Hence, it is the iratus bugs that transformed into the Wraith, not their human victims.
            Ninja'd...

            Comment


              #51
              i expected the wraith to be more of a gray faction from the original advertisements, sort of a sideline race on a planet that the ancients also inhabbited, that advised the earth people against the actual big bad... but also repremended them and told them off for being arrogant *******s just for moving in and taking over the ancients old home, considering them notworthy of it, or of the ancients, or of thier connection to the ancients, sort of a dark asgard type thing but with a bit more ... absent evil?? willing to step in if they considered the humans to obnoxious to their corner of the galaxy and... well... remove them... from their galaxy... how .... who knows... thats just how i first thought of the wraithes from thier first commercials etc

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by nivao View Post
                I don't want to sound frustrated or harsh, but, am I not clear that what happened to Ellia and Shepard, and the retrovirus, have nothing to do with the Iratus bugs evolving into the Wraith? And that the bugs killing their victims also has no relation to their own evolution? Why do you think it does? Why do you believe the victims have to stay alive for the bugs to evolve over thousands of years? Can you answer that? It would probably help clearing things up as we keep going in circles.
                For simply one reason, there is simply no "natural" way for a bug to evolve into a wraith. If a bug could harvest and adapt human DNA at the rate of an "alien" (facehugger to hybrid in one cycle), then fine. I don't think the -human- has to stay alive, but that the bug needs continuous infusions of human DNA, as displayed by your own quotes is what makes it unlikely. The problem is, WHY do people keep feeding the bugs?
                Did the Ancient's keep feeding them human DNA?

                McKay's remark should also not be taken literally. He just throws around a random rounded number to make a point, everyone does that. It's like me saying I said this a hundred times already
                That would be inconsistent with McKay, he would overblow, not undercut any number
                With regards to the food, "less satisfying" does not necessarily mean they just don't like it. It could also mean that normal food just doesn't sustain them as much as feeding on humans do. Remember, Wraith can regenerate wounds and live a very long time by feeding on humans. Ordinary food simply wouldn't provide enough "fuel" to achieve that, they would have to eat a lot. Similarly, they may rely on humans, simply because larger creatures have more "energy". Most common animals have a much shorter life span, hence less energy to feed on. And if you eat one thing long enough you may become reliant on it. It frequently happens that if a vegetarian, and a vegan more so, can eventually no longer eat meat at all as it would make them sick simply because they stopped eating it and the body adapts.

                In "The Defiant One" we see the same energy bugs as seen in SG-1's "Prodigy". The Wraith seems to be grabbing them and feeding off of them, implying that the Wraith can still feed on non-humans. But much like normal food it's just not enough to sustain them.
                I agree, but that was more directed to Davey as he asked the question.
                sigpic
                ALL THANKS TO THE WONDERFUL CREATOR OF THIS SIG GO TO R.I.G.
                A lie is just a truth that hasn't gone through conversion therapy yet
                The truth isn't the truth

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by Gatefan1976 View Post
                  but that the bug needs continuous infusions of human DNA, as displayed by your own quotes is what makes it unlikely. The problem is, WHY do people keep feeding the bugs?
                  What quote provided in this thread even suggests this? The one I pointed to explains that an iratus bug needs to gorge itself on a single human and then lay eggs shortly after, which will transfer some of the human DNA it absorbed to its offspring's genetic structure. The offspring would naturally then have to find another human to feed on, repeat the process, and, in doing so, pass on a little more DNA to its own offspring. Each generation would therefore have a little more human DNA in its genetic structure than its parent, allowing the bugs to eventually produce a humanoid hybrid after many generations.

                  To summarize, what this means is that each generation needs to feed on only a single human right before it lays its eggs. Primitive humans seeded on these bugs' native planet would have been ill-equipped to completely prevent iratus bug attacks (we can't even completely protect people from being fed on by vampire bats today).

                  That would be inconsistent with McKay, he would overblow, not undercut any number
                  Mckay is ego driven. He exaggerates his own capabilities (unless under pressure). He doesn't make every number about every subject bigger out of some no-purpose love of big numbers.

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                    #54
                    GF: Just a clarification in regards to the prison island episode. The sassy Wraith actually says that he enjoys food for pleasure, but gives him no sustenance whatsoever. He also says that some of his kind maintain civilized manners. Looks like the 1% Wraith.

                    All of you have good points, and I think have a bit of truth each. I'd speculate that the bug evolved naturally and gained human DNA via feeding, but most likely was fast-tracked by, probably, the Ancients themselves. I could think of many reasons, first of all we know that the Ancients were meddling with very dangerous stuff (black spirit thing in the first season in Atlantis) and were driven by their curiosity. One could guess that they realized the bug had healing capabilities, or regenerating capabilities, and wanted to see if they could incorporate part of its DNA into humans. Maybe a rogue experiment that went wrong? The proto-Wraith could've then escaped and reproduced.

                    Otherwise, I don't think that the bug would've evolved straight to human(ish) form, that makes no sense to me. If it followed ''normal'' evolution the Bug would've changed into multiple life forms before wraith form.
                    Spoiler:
                    I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

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                      #55
                      Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
                      Otherwise, I don't think that the bug would've evolved straight to human(ish) form, that makes no sense to me. If it followed ''normal'' evolution the Bug would've changed into multiple life forms before wraith form.
                      Nothing suggests they evolved "straight" into a humanoid form. Mckay's "thousand year" line and Michael's explanation of how the process works naturally along with how he had to accelerate that process very clearly establish a slow process in which each new generation of bug that is able to feed on a human and produce an egg shortly after is slightly more human than the last. Hence, there would've been many different versions of proto-Wraith that lived and died along the way.

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                        #56
                        Besides a character like Michael, do any of the Wraith actors get any credits in the show? Of course I know that would be difficult because they have no names unless under the effect of the retrovirus, and would have to be identified as "Wraith Warrior #1" or "Wraith Guard." It must be hard for them to get Social Security. ;-)

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by Davey View Post
                          Besides a character like Michael, do any of the Wraith actors get any credits in the show? Of course I know that would be difficult because they have no names unless under the effect of the retrovirus, and would have to be identified as "Wraith Warrior #1" or "Wraith Guard." It must be hard for them to get Social Security. ;-)
                          Todd, which is the same actor that plays Hawling (sorry have no clue how to spell his name)

                          Also I think the Vegas wraith was pretty dope, but you probably haven't seen that one yet.
                          Spoiler:
                          I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by Xaeden View Post
                            Nothing suggests they evolved "straight" into a humanoid form. Mckay's "thousand year" line and Michael's explanation of how the process works naturally along with how he had to accelerate that process very clearly establish a slow process in which each new generation of bug that is able to feed on a human and produce an egg shortly after is slightly more human than the last. Hence, there would've been many different versions of proto-Wraith that lived and died along the way.
                            Absolutely is a possibility. But is it likely? Considering the nature of the show (ancients seeding life through the Galaxy, and also how quickly Michael was able to create his monsters, I'd say that the unnatural intervention by the Lanteans is to be considered as well.

                            Perhaps they accidentally seeded life on the Icarus Bug planet without a thorough analysis, came back after a few centuries and went like: Oh Snap bois! we messed up!
                            Spoiler:
                            I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.

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                              #59
                              Just watched Common Ground. Excellent episode covering all the bases of the ethical and moral dilemmas. It's not the fault of the Wraith that they exist to "feed." But they can only be blamed for not devoting any resources to seeking ways to overcome their need in the thousands of years they each individual wraith exists, especially given their ability to restore human life and essentially demonstrate a degree of altruism that I never thought possible. The only question worth asking is how would they feel if humans sought to provide them with a way to remove their Iratus DNA. What would that mean to them? Or perhaps a method where they could feed on animals and not on humans. Does this ever get addressed beyond the story of the retrovirus itself???
                              Does the Iratus bug itself only feed on humans? What if no humans are around as in the case of them in the cave in Conversion?

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post
                                Absolutely is a possibility. But is it likely? Considering the nature of the show (ancients seeding life through the Galaxy, and also how quickly Michael was able to create his monsters, I'd say that the unnatural intervention by the Lanteans is to be considered as well.

                                Perhaps they accidentally seeded life on the Icarus Bug planet without a thorough analysis, came back after a few centuries and went like: Oh Snap bois! we messed up!
                                According to the hologram in the pilot they did seed humans on "a thousand worlds" and then later on stepped onto a world where they discovered the Wraith. The Ancients having a hand in accelerating the hybridization process would contradict those words. While you could argue that they might want to cover that up, in this case they'd be hiding the truth from their own people. Not only would this deprive them of the opportunity to use it as a teaching lesson so future generations don't try to do something similar, but it would mean that a highly intelligent culture of scientists would be unable to figure out that the Wraith's development was artificially manipulated in some way.

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