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    #16
    Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
    I wasn't ranting about the trend, I just noted that it exists. Absolutely, women were often portrayed as helpless cardboard characters in need of a man to save them for a long time. A change was needed.
    It wasn't aimed at you specifically.

    Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
    But I think the pendulum may have swung too far the other way at this point.
    Not by a mile.

    Originally posted by Annoyed View Post
    Sounds remarkably similar to criticism leveled at Jar Jar Abrams when he remade the Star Trek universe in his image back in 2009.
    It's practically the standard criticism for any remake or reimagination or sequel.

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      #17
      Originally posted by thekillman View Post
      It's practically the standard criticism for any remake or reimagination or sequel.
      The problem is, that people still turn up to watch Attack of the Clones after Phantom Menace. They still turned up to watch Revenge of the Sith after Attack of the Clones. They still turned up to watch The Force Awakens after Prequel Trilogy. Star wars is the one the ruins other movies, not the one that gets ruined by other movies.

      A youtuber, Jeremy Jahns, sums up my opinions pretty nicely and gives voice to the non-trolls who have much to complain about.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35aEjj8C4Cg

      I agree with his ponts and he is does touch on the OP's question.

      He spends a bit of time talking about the messaging in Star Wars. A great example he made is that of a friend who always gets political when you just want to hang out and chill with your bodies. The messaging has to be sneaky like fridge logic. You don't realise it until you think about it when you're home opening your fridge to see what to ead and suddenly you realize what it meant and it blows your mind, it has a build up...like "This is how democracy dies" (Which was aimed at George Bush). Otherwise you won't reach anyone other than simply preaching to the choir, creating an echo chamber. I mean, Captain Kirk never said "Black lives matter" he did however ask why a species is all crazy about which side of their body is black and white...that's how you do messaging.

      But I think that's mostly a small piece of it though. People can not like that, and still want to show up to the next movie because of what they do like. As long as the people behind the films don't go name calling and insulting the fans...oh wait...

      But here's my biggest issue with the movies. Johnson's subversion porn. JJ Abrams set up things, the plot, the scenes, the mysteries (because he loves his mystery box) it all begged questions that Johnson just flicked over his shoulder to fall into the water behind him. Ackbar could have had a cool send off...nope. Flick it over the water. Rey's parents? Flick it over the water. Snoke? Over the water. The minority characters attempt to save the day? Silly Tood, only white people (sorry, white women, but same difference) can save the day! Flick them over the water! The Republic? Flick it over. The Resistance? Over the water. Let's be honest...JJ Abrams probably was a little miffed. But, while some don't like him and his mystery box obsession, I'm glad he's doing the next movie because Johnson would just flick that kid with the broom at the end over the water in name of subversion.

      Respecting established material is why the Marvel films are able to pump out so much material and be mega successful. The comic book fans get to see everything they loved about the comic books in the films. The saturday morning cartoon watchers? Same thing. The fanbase of Star Wars fell in love with EU material too. Rogue One honors that base, The Force Awakens...God knows they honored that. The Last Jedi....oh boy. Even the Prequels honored the EU and the world that was established...which is why people still turned up for those movies even after Phantom Menace.

      Take Fin's character growth from a coward Stormtrooper space janitor who runs at the first sign of trouble to someone who runs towards danger and then make him go through the same exact journey in the second film? That to me is them not respecting Fin's character and that threw me off.

      I don't think Johnson and Kennedy are actually interested in the films as much as just doing a job. Solo, Force Awakens, and Rogue One respected the established world. The Last Jedi...just flicked it over the shoulder off the cliff down into the sea below. It's not surprising the not many people would turn up for Solo despite how good of a movie it is.
      By Nolamom
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        #18
        Originally posted by aretood2 View Post
        The problem is, that people still turn up to watch Attack of the Clones after Phantom Menace. They still turned up to watch Revenge of the Sith after Attack of the Clones. They still turned up to watch The Force Awakens after Prequel Trilogy. Star wars is the one the ruins other movies, not the one that gets ruined by other movies.

        A youtuber, Jeremy Jahns, sums up my opinions pretty nicely and gives voice to the non-trolls who have much to complain about.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35aEjj8C4Cg

        I agree with his ponts and he is does touch on the OP's question.

        He spends a bit of time talking about the messaging in Star Wars. A great example he made is that of a friend who always gets political when you just want to hang out and chill with your bodies. The messaging has to be sneaky like fridge logic. You don't realise it until you think about it when you're home opening your fridge to see what to ead and suddenly you realize what it meant and it blows your mind, it has a build up...like "This is how democracy dies" (Which was aimed at George Bush). Otherwise you won't reach anyone other than simply preaching to the choir, creating an echo chamber. I mean, Captain Kirk never said "Black lives matter" he did however ask why a species is all crazy about which side of their body is black and white...that's how you do messaging.

        But I think that's mostly a small piece of it though. People can not like that, and still want to show up to the next movie because of what they do like. As long as the people behind the films don't go name calling and insulting the fans...oh wait...

        But here's my biggest issue with the movies. Johnson's subversion porn. JJ Abrams set up things, the plot, the scenes, the mysteries (because he loves his mystery box) it all begged questions that Johnson just flicked over his shoulder to fall into the water behind him. Ackbar could have had a cool send off...nope. Flick it over the water. Rey's parents? Flick it over the water. Snoke? Over the water. The minority characters attempt to save the day? Silly Tood, only white people (sorry, white women, but same difference) can save the day! Flick them over the water! The Republic? Flick it over. The Resistance? Over the water. Let's be honest...JJ Abrams probably was a little miffed. But, while some don't like him and his mystery box obsession, I'm glad he's doing the next movie because Johnson would just flick that kid with the broom at the end over the water in name of subversion.

        Respecting established material is why the Marvel films are able to pump out so much material and be mega successful. The comic book fans get to see everything they loved about the comic books in the films. The saturday morning cartoon watchers? Same thing. The fanbase of Star Wars fell in love with EU material too. Rogue One honors that base, The Force Awakens...God knows they honored that. The Last Jedi....oh boy. Even the Prequels honored the EU and the world that was established...which is why people still turned up for those movies even after Phantom Menace.

        Take Fin's character growth from a coward Stormtrooper space janitor who runs at the first sign of trouble to someone who runs towards danger and then make him go through the same exact journey in the second film? That to me is them not respecting Fin's character and that threw me off.

        I don't think Johnson and Kennedy are actually interested in the films as much as just doing a job. Solo, Force Awakens, and Rogue One respected the established world. The Last Jedi...just flicked it over the shoulder off the cliff down into the sea below. It's not surprising the not many people would turn up for Solo despite how good of a movie it is.
        That is actually very interesting Tood, because I love the Last Jedi, yet I found all the old EU stuff to be rather irritating. Like it made the universe too big, when what Star Wars is at its core to me is a fun swashbuckling adventure. And that's what Last Jedi felt like to me.

        I do feel like Johnson may have gone too far with some things. Killing Phasma in particular didn't feel earned, and I can easily explain away Finn's cowardice at the beginning as simply being a very human regression like would happen to a lot of people, but you're right it doesn't really work as a narrative after the first film. But at the same time I found Finn, and in fact all the characters just far more likable in LJ.

        Oddly though... Having said all that, despite being a true style of a swashbuckling adventure, Solo left me feeling cold... Entertained. It was good. But I felt no emotion towards it. Which is how I felt about Force Awakens. Whereas when I saw Rogue One and Last Jedi I left the cinema feeling elated.
        Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by aretood2 View Post
          Respecting established material is why the Marvel films are able to pump out so much material and be mega successful. The comic book fans get to see everything they loved about the comic books in the films.
          I know quite a few hardcore Marvel comic fans who would vehemently and vocally decry this as nonsense. I'm not one of them - I love the Marvel movies and was always more a DC Comics fan - but I'm just saying, you're painting with a broad brush there.
          "A society grows great when old men plant trees, the shade of which they know they will never sit in. Good people do things for other people. That's it, the end." -- Penelope Wilton in Ricky Gervais's After Life

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            #20
            Originally posted by P-90_177 View Post
            That is actually very interesting Tood, because I love the Last Jedi, yet I found all the old EU stuff to be rather irritating. Like it made the universe too big, when what Star Wars is at its core to me is a fun swashbuckling adventure. And that's what Last Jedi felt like to me.
            To be clear, I don't think TLJ was a big waste horrible terrible no good movie. It was a good movie on its own. It just didn't act like it was part of a trilogy that already set up a few things...hints the "flicking it over the shoulder" and "subversion porn" comments. If the saga itself loosing cohesion, then why bother with non-saga films? I honestly felt that Solo was going to be a major waste of time, a movie no one asked for. I liked it on its own. It's not the best bestest that ever bested, but I like every part of it mainly because it surpassed my expectations and I liked the characters.

            I do feel like Johnson may have gone too far with some things. Killing Phasma in particular didn't feel earned, and I can easily explain away Finn's cowardice at the beginning as simply being a very human regression like would happen to a lot of people, but you're right it doesn't really work as a narrative after the first film. But at the same time I found Finn, and in fact all the characters just far more likable in LJ.
            I forgot about Phasma...that's a wasted potential. He made a good movie as it stands, just not a team player film. That's my beef. I like Rey. But at this point Johnson might make her into an old grumpy useless lady like he did with Luke so why bother? The old EU was...well...not all good. But some of it was, and that's what kept the healthy fanbase there. It helped the Force Awakens, a lot.


            Originally posted by DigiFluid View Post
            I know quite a few hardcore Marvel comic fans who would vehemently and vocally decry this as nonsense. I'm not one of them - I love the Marvel movies and was always more a DC Comics fan - but I'm just saying, you're painting with a broad brush there.
            Not all fans are "hardcore"? I'm not sure I understand you. My point on Marvel is that it uses material that has been proven to be successful and brings it to life on the big screen. It doesn't try to reinvent the wheel. Why should it if there is already a library of ideas to remix for the big screen. It uses characters and the traits that make them who they are that have proven to make people like them. It's a formula that works. DCEU doesn't quite do that and thus their movies do worse. There's one exception. Wonder Woman...and that movie respected her character, the things that made her popular. Superman was never popular because he was emo, it's because he was campy. Batman was popular because...well...I don't know. I'm more of a Superman person myself.

            People liked Luke because, despite his constant whining, he had an optimistic can do spirit "I'm a Jedi like my father before me" personality that always came out on top...I just didn't see that personality at all.
            By Nolamom
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