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  1. #1
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    Default Defending Atlantis...

    Hey guys,

    as I've just re-watched "The Siege" (Part I-III) and read a couple of fanfictions dealing with it ("XSGCOM - Terra from the Deep" for example) I asked myself why their defenses were so pitiful and illogical?

    I mean why re-tool railguns made for use on a space-ship for manned operation (insteaf of running them via a computer-network for example), why have this many guys with machine-guns there instead of say several CWIS-Turrets (Phalanx, Goal-Keeper, C-RAM, Kashtan etc.) connected to a radar installed on the central tower?

    Was this only a "rule of cool" kind of thing? (Just like starfighters instead of, you know: Drones or no small ships at all because they don't make sense if capital ships have energy-shields, not to mention sensors and weapons to engage those pesky fighters)

    Well, the stage is yours

    greetings LAX

  2. #2
    First Lieutenant Starsaber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    Would they have been able to get the computer hardware and connecting wiring through the gate? How long would they have had to set it up before the Wraith arrived?

    Those are the two big things. Even if they were able to just load the software to run the system onto one of the servers they already had in Atlantis, the turrets were spread out quite a bit and would probably need hardlines to communicate with eachother/the central computer and that would have taken a fair amount of time to set up (and could be sabotaged by Wraith invaders.

    That's off the top of my head, but I imagine rule of cool probably had more to do with it from a production perspective.

  3. #3
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Laxian of Earth View Post
    I mean why re-tool railguns made for use on a space-ship for manned operation (insteaf of running them via a computer-network for example), why have this many guys with machine-guns there instead of say several CWIS-Turrets (Phalanx, Goal-Keeper, C-RAM, Kashtan etc.) connected to a radar installed on the central tower?
    Presumably because they only had a few days to grab whatever they could, put it on the Daedalus and ship it as soon as possible or else be too late? And the stuff that came through the gate, well they only had 2-3 weeks or so to gather that and send it through. Not a whole lot of time to set up a whole proper defense.

    The Railguns were probably designed for offworld use (hence the convenient shipping through the gate), though i doubt that Area 51 could develop a sensor system in 3 weeks that would allow them to work in the middle of a city, hence the manual control. The guns were probably the fastest they could order in that little time (or already had laying around)

    As to CIWS-turrets, considering how big and heavy they are it's doubtful that they would have the ability to easily ship them through and still assemble them in time. They are, after all, not made for shipping through a stargate. Plus, most of those designs have the whole ammo system below deck, which does not easily translate to mobile turrets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starsaber View Post
    How long would they have had to set it up before the Wraith arrived?
    I think Atlantis had like 3-4 weeks left when they sent the message. With the dial-in days before fleet arrival, that leaves around 1 week for making a plan, about 1 week for gathering the materials and 1 week or so for details and final prep. The Daedalus beamed up the ZPM and left immediately after, so there was probably quite a mad scramble to get all the stuff at the gate / at the Daedalus in time. The trip took around 4 days of hyperspace travel, so more than half a week of the early warning is gone, and leaves only 4 days or so for all the stuff shipped to be put in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starsaber View Post
    That's off the top of my head, but I imagine rule of cool probably had more to do with it from a production perspective.
    It's probably what the Military was willing to lend them, plus the railguns add a nice futuristic touch.
    Last edited by thekillman; January 10th, 2018 at 12:12 PM.

  4. #4
    First Lieutenant epg20's Avatar
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    this is just a piece from what I remembered, but I remember hearing, on a commentary, or something like that, how you could feel everything that was going on inside the studio outside during the battle scenes.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    Quote Originally Posted by thekillman View Post
    Presumably because they only had a few days to grab whatever they could, put it on the Daedalus and ship it as soon as possible or else be too late? And the stuff that came through the gate, well they only had 2-3 weeks or so to gather that and send it through. Not a whole lot of time to set up a whole proper defense.

    The Railguns were probably designed for offworld use (hence the convenient shipping through the gate), though i doubt that Area 51 could develop a sensor system in 3 weeks that would allow them to work in the middle of a city, hence the manual control. The guns were probably the fastest they could order in that little time (or already had laying around)
    I agree. The railguns were more than likely the easiest things to GET and take through to atlantis..

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    Well, CIWS-Turrets are still modular (you can probably connect them wirelessly, I mean the Wraith can't set up jamming hardware in the city so as a stop-gap-measure that would work!), they are built to fit slots on every size ship being currently built (that's why a CIWS of European origin can easily be added to a US-Ship for example - or more likely: The other way round! Phalanx and C-RAM are exportet all over the world after all)

    As for "can't work in the city" - Don't let them get that close in the first place! Tag them early and then mow them down! (C-RAM works well here because it has a longer range than guns, but guns can mop up whatever survives the outer defense layer, not to mention if the CIWS-Guns are supported by those railguns tied into the same systme!) and if something does break through? Then you can use MANPADS etc. (layered defense and all that!)

    greetings LAX
    ps: Even if it was too short a time-frame: Why not install such a system later on (the Wraith will come back after all, Sheppard knew that and said it several times)? You can't rely on the shield all the damn time, especially if you waste ZPM-Power on dialing home (not to mention: They only have the one ZPM!)!
    Last edited by Laxian of Earth; January 12th, 2018 at 04:18 AM.

  7. #7
    Second Lieutenant StargateMillennium's Avatar
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    Wouldn't the rail gun be superior to a CIWS? Longer range. Heavier caliber. A lot more KE on impact. Also, since they're built to go, the rate of acquiring railguns would be higher than the rate of acquiring CIWS or C-RAM's.

    The Atlantis defense was a multi-layer defense with Railguns as the outer layer, M2 Browning machine guns (considered anti-aircraft guns) for the inner layer and we saw guys with MANPADS around the central tower.

    The having a CIWS in the city is still a bad idea. A CIWS that uses a 20mm round has an effective range of 4500 m with a real-world kill-distance of 500 m. Atlantis can be predicted to have a 3750 m radius. Meaning while some of the darts could be offed before they got close, most of the darts would be destroyed in the confines of the towers. I don't know the effective range or real-world kill-distance of the 30mm or 35mm ones but they would likely face the same issues. They could begin destroying darts at a distance but end up having to do most of the clean up within the city confines.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    Not if you place the CIWS-Turrets on the outer piers (and make the inner city (and other towers!) an exclusion zone and cover that with your AA-MGs etc.)

    Do you think those man-controlled rail-guns are really better than a radar-guided two component (missiles (C-RAM, Kashtan!) and gattling-guns (Phalanx, Goal-Keeper, AK-630)) CIWS (or three component, if you tie in the rail-guns - without adding an operator's chair!)?

    I don't think so, because a computer is better than a human operator!

    greetings LAX

  9. #9
    Second Lieutenant StargateMillennium's Avatar
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    I'm not talking about the human component. I'm talking about the gun itself. Rail guns offer much more than the CIWS. If you really wanted to tie everything to a radar-controlled computer system, don't bother bringing in a Phalanx, just bring in all rail guns and hook them up to a computer instead.

  10. #10
    Second Lieutenant StargateMillennium's Avatar
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    Decided to look it up. I think the question you should be asking is why aren't automated sentries used more often? All the automated weapons I can find are either used as means of guarding a location from ground targets or are point-defense systems that merely double as AA defense. All guns that specialize in AA are manned.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    Well, they have limited railguns, so there's bound to be gaps (which can be filled with CIWS-Guns, not to mention that in a layered the railguns would engage targets further out, while the CIWS guns would take care of the really close targets - why waste the railguns (you only have a few of them after all) for that, not to mention the ammo which is more useful in shooting targets further away down!)

    Atlantis is pretty large (larger than any aircraft carrier and even those depend on their carrier-group for air-defense!)

    greetings LAX

  12. #12
    Second Lieutenant StargateMillennium's Avatar
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    The name of the game for area air defense is different than point defense. Area air defense calls for overlapping fields of fire over every area above the base or, in this case, city . Because of how fast planes are, AA guns at intermediate to low altitudes are dangerous not because of their accuracy but their large and ubiquitous numbers with overlapping envelopes. Essentially, fill the skies with lead.

    Now let me ask you this. Wit this in mind, how many manned machine guns do you think it'll take to equal the performance of one Phalanx for anti-aircraft?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    A ton, because the Phalanx has both a high rate of fire (it's a gatling-type rotary gun after all) and it's more accurate than a manned gun, too (it has its own radar after all in that "R2-D2" look alike structure on top of the gun itself!)! Can't specify an exact number, but probable more that 10 machineguns per Phalanx-Turret!

    greetings LAX
    ps: I still would beef the system up by adding C-RAM missiles!

  14. #14
    Second Lieutenant StargateMillennium's Avatar
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    Do you think the AA of 25 guys on M2 Browining machine guns could compete with one turret?

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    Maybe - because they can engage more targets at once, despite being less lethal (less accurate shooting because of the human element etc.)

    greetings LAX

  16. #16
    Second Lieutenant StargateMillennium's Avatar
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    I ask this cuz a Phalanx costs 3.8 million per unit. I can't find the price of an M2 Browning and I've seen prices from 14k to 33k. If someone can find an exact price for me, that'd be great. Can't be that far off since an M60 is 6k.

    If I were to assume an M2 Browning costs 25k, that means I can purchase 152 Browning machine guns for the same price as a single Phalanx. Even if I cut in half to compensate for things like man power and ammo, that's still 76 machine guns for one Phalanx.

    I mentioned it before but this is why sentries aren't used as often. Often times, getting a bunch of guys on a bunch of cheaper guns can produce the same result for less. All sentries were designed as an anti-missile, rocket, mortar, ect because its nigh impossible for even a team of soldiers to shoot those out of the sky in the time before it hits the ground. But, it's still a gun on a swivel so there's no point in denying it the chance to waste air craft.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Defending Atlantis...

    Hm...that's an explanation, the other ist that the Wraith and the Goa'uld wouldn't stand much of a chance (on the ground - if they bring in ships that turns that around, especially in the first few seasons where Earth didn't have any ships) if humanity went all out and came at them loaded for bear! Bringing stuff like buggies (which do fit through the stargate) armed with heavy machine-guns and rocket-launchers, machine-guns (isn't it kind of normale for special forces teams to have a dedicated marksman and a machine-gunner?) etc.

    greetings LAX

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