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  1. #1
    Site Admin GateWorld's Avatar
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    Post The War Without, The War Within (114)

    Visit the Episode GuideSTAR TREK: DISCOVERY - SEASON ONE
    THE WAR WITHOUT, THE WAR WITHIN
    EPISODE NUMBER - 114
    Admiral Cornwell hopes that Discovery's return home might reverse the tide of war with the Klingons, with Starfleet's newest strategist recommending an assault on the enemy home world. While Stamets hatches a plan to restore their crop of spores, Burnham must confront Lt. Tyler.

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    Last edited by GateWorld; February 6th, 2018 at 09:27 AM.

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    Captain Kilgharrah's Avatar
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    Default Re: The War Without, The War Within (114)

    Now that's a good show there.

    I never expected them to fool the crew into believing the emperor is actually Captain Georgiou. I see where that might get us.

    As it appears in the next episode promo, people are getting closer to losing their principles and I'm sure that many will eventually do. If they actually do, then that's fine writing there. That's realistic and I expect them to have to deal with regret over what they have done after the war is over.
    Emperor Georgiou will help them win that war, that I'm sure of, but at what cost.

    What I really like about this show is that anyone could be a red shirt. Captains are certainly not invincible.

    I've read a review somewhere arguing that the technology on this show doesn't make sense because it's more advanced than what we saw on TOS 10 years later. I believe IMHO that they will lose a lot on this war and will have to build simpler ships to have enough resources to build more ships.

    The same review says it doesn't make any sense that they chose to give Tyler limited privileges and still say he isn't to blame. It also says Burnham is making a big deal out of it and neither should Tyler himself.
    Thinking about this, I believe anyone would act the same if they were in Tyler's shoes. Having that memory of killing someone when you had no control over yourself is traumatizing even if it's not your fault, not to mention confusing.
    Speaking of confusing, Burnham being angry with him and Saru choosing to limit him with that bracelet makes total sense. Burnham is confused and she can't be sure Voq won't resurface and how could she be with the man who tried to kill her. Saru had to do this for the safety of the crew since he can't be certain he won't relapse and try to kill any of the crew.
    I liked how Tilly took the first step to sit with him. It makes perfect sense. She is the right one to do this.

    I really liked that line that said that they all got a glimpse of the darkness in side them when they were in the Mirror universe and given the right environment, they could descend there. This is very improtant because as I said earlier, war will show everyone's true colors and many will lose their principles.

    Loved it when the Admiral referred to Archer and his crew. I never saw ENT, but I still loved it.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: The War Without, The War Within (114)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgharrah View Post
    I never expected them to fool the crew into believing the emperor is actually Captain Georgiou. I see where that might get us.
    Well, to be fair, the crew aren't remotely familiar with the Mirror Universe, so they'd have no reason to question it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgharrah View Post
    Emperor Georgiou will help them win that war, that I'm sure of, but at what cost.
    She's willing to go over that proverbial line though, when the rest of Starfleet isn't. The Empress would be quite happy to wipe Qo'nos from the star charts; no doubt Saru or Burnham (or even Tyler) will stop her. I also wouldn't be surprised here if, at least from the crews perspective, Burnham betrays Georgiou for a second time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgharrah View Post
    The same review says it doesn't make any sense that they chose to give Tyler limited privileges and still say he isn't to blame. It also says Burnham is making a big deal out of it and neither should Tyler himself. Thinking about this, I believe anyone would act the same if they were in Tyler's shoes. Having that memory of killing someone when you had no control over yourself is traumatizing even if it's not your fault, not to mention confusing. Speaking of confusing, Burnham being angry with him and Saru choosing to limit him with that bracelet makes total sense. Burnham is confused and she can't be sure Voq won't resurface and how could she be with the man who tried to kill her. Saru had to do this for the safety of the crew since he can't be certain he won't relapse and try to kill any of the crew. I liked how Tilly took the first step to sit with him. It makes perfect sense. She is the right one to do this.
    Tyler is the odd theme here. Is he Human, or is he Klingon?

    From my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) but there was a Human Tyler, who was captured, and his memories were transferred into Voq's brain who in turn was genetically and physically mutilated to become Human. Voq's essence however has now been removed (he's been killed?) and Tyler's memories have taken over Voq's mutilated body.

    So we've got Human memories in a former Klingon shell, and together they've given Tyler a rebirth (so to speak)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgharrah View Post
    Loved it when the Admiral referred to Archer and his crew. I never saw ENT, but I still loved it.
    Hah, as did I. When she opened up saying "this is the first time a Federation ship has gone to Qo'nos" I said to myself "what about Archer" and then she proceeded to say "since Archer and the NX-01"; I was quite satisfied with the reference.

    Was also interesting in this episode was to see a few mirror characters of this timeline; the Andorian and (I thought?) the Tellarite we saw in the Mirror Universe, we got to see their prime counterparts. Guess it saved on the makeup and casting departments.

    Predictions for the final:
    * Burnham will have to put Georgiou down
    * Tyler will either sacrifice his life for Bunham or Stammits, or he'll attempt to sacrifice his life (thus gaining some form of more acceptance)
    * Cornwell will die
    * Surak will be instrumental in negotiating an accord between the Federation and Klingon Houses (this much can pretty much be guaranteed though what we know as history records)
    * The Spore drive will stop working, or it'll be decided to deactivate it (maybe it'll be a condition of the Klingon surrender?)

    * Discovery will be destroyed, and S2 will give us a more ... modern looking ship (mere optimism on my part here)

    Edit: Forgot to mention, but the reference to Discovery having been destroyed nine months ago; I guess the ISS Discovery didn't last long here in the prime universe.
    Last edited by Flash525; February 5th, 2018 at 10:29 PM. Reason: ISS Discovery

  4. #4
    Captain Kilgharrah's Avatar
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    Default Re: The War Without, The War Within (114)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash525 View Post
    Well, to be fair, the crew aren't remotely familiar with the Mirror Universe, so they'd have no reason to question it.
    How are they not familiar with it. You mean they didn't notice that they changed their uniform AND changed the ship's outer look?

    Burnham betrays Georgiou for a second time.
    I can totally see that happening.
    From my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) but there was a Human Tyler...
    ... Voq's essence however has now been removed (he's been killed?) and Tyler's memories have taken over Voq's mutilated body.
    I also think there was a human Tyler, but nothing clear was said in that matter. But I believe Starfleet command is not stupid. When they were briefed about bringing a human Starfleet lieutenant, it would have raised alarms if there was no Tyler.
    And about Voq, he was only suppressed. He's still in there. I believe Tyler's understanding of Voq and Klingons will help them win the war the right was in contrast to Georgiou.
    Predictions for the final:
    * Burnham will have to put Georgiou down
    ...
    * The Spore drive will stop working, or it'll be decided to deactivate it (maybe it'll be a condition of the Klingon surrender?)

    * Discovery will be destroyed, and S2 will give us a more ... modern looking ship (mere optimism on my part here)
    I don't think Georgiou would be killed anytime soon.

    About the spore drive, it could be stop working or deactivated, but not right now. Maybe at the end of the show.

    Same goes for the destruction of discovery... Maybe at the end of the show.


    There's something I wanted to ask those who have watched the whole franchise coz I only watched TOS. Did they ever visit that terraformed moon later in any of the other shows? I don't know, it feels familiar.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: The War Without, The War Within (114)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgharrah View Post
    How are they not familiar with it. You mean they didn't notice that they changed their uniform AND changed the ship's outer look?
    Sorry, I should have been clearer; I meant the Mirror Universe element of Georgiou; it's only Saru & Burnham that were aware of her before she showed up with Burnham, on the Discovery. The remaining Discovery crew, whilst they may have known of (an) Empress/Emperor, they'd not have known the identity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgharrah View Post
    I also think there was a human Tyler, but nothing clear was said in that matter. But I believe Starfleet command is not stupid. When they were briefed about bringing a human Starfleet lieutenant, it would have raised alarms if there was no Tyler. And about Voq, he was only suppressed. He's still in there. I believe Tyler's understanding of Voq and Klingons will help them win the war the right was in contrast to Georgiou.
    I'm pretty sure it was stated that a human Tyler was captured at the Battle of the Binary stars, and that they used him to acquire the memories to implant into Voq. I'm also not so sure about Voq still being suppressed. Didn't L'Rell let out one of those Klingon death cries after she operated on Tyler? Why do that if she's merely suppressed a consciousness? Klingon's seemingly only do that to mourn the dead, not the suppressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgharrah View Post
    About the spore drive, it could be stop working or deactivated, but not right now. Maybe at the end of the show. Same goes for the destruction of discovery... Maybe at the end of the show.
    Oh I doubt the spore drive will stop working, more that it'll likely be a requirement of the accords(?) that Starfleet stop using it, much alike the later agreement with the cloaking technologies. There may be elements within Starfleet that still use it; Section 31 for example - they certainly seem to be able to get around rather quick when they need too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgharrah View Post
    There's something I wanted to ask those who have watched the whole franchise coz I only watched TOS. Did they ever visit that terraformed moon later in any of the other shows? I don't know, it feels familiar.
    Having watched almost every episode of every series (there may be the odd TOS one that I've missed) I'm pretty sure that spore planet never shows up in any future series.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: The War Without, The War Within (114)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash525 View Post
    Sorry, I should have been clearer; I meant the Mirror Universe element of Georgiou; it's only Saru & Burnham that were aware of her before she showed up with Burnham, on the Discovery. The remaining Discovery crew, whilst they may have known of (an) Empress/Emperor, they'd not have known the identity.
    Yeah and they should have told the crew.
    I'm pretty sure it was stated that a human Tyler was captured at the Battle of the Binary stars, and that they used him to acquire the memories to implant into Voq. I'm also not so sure about Voq still being suppressed. Didn't L'Rell let out one of those Klingon death cries after she operated on Tyler? Why do that if she's merely suppressed a consciousness? Klingon's seemingly only do that to mourn the dead, not the suppressed.
    Must have missed the mention of human Tyler.
    L'rell could have done this to fool them. She's clearly deceiving them. I felt the same was after her conversation with the Admiral.

    Having watched almost every episode of every series (there may be the odd TOS one that I've missed) I'm pretty sure that spore planet never shows up in any future series.
    Ok

  7. #7
    Airman Flash525's Avatar
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    Default Re: The War Without, The War Within (114)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilgharrah View Post
    Must have missed the mention of human Tyler. L'rell could have done this to fool them. She's clearly deceiving them. I felt the same was after her conversation with the Admiral.
    If I remember correctly, they used the memory engrams of the captured Tyler to create the personality needed to temporarily replace Voq; speaking of, if L'Rell has indeed got everyone fooled, I'm not so sure how this redemption and guilt arc serves a purpose; we've already had Tyler fighting his demons and memories - I fail to see the logic of having us viewers witness him go through all of that again.

    I may be wrong, but I'm pretty much convinced that Voq, at least as we knew him, is dead, and that Tyler a new personality with the memories of both Voq and Tyler, but with the personality of only Tyler.

  8. #8
    Captain Kilgharrah's Avatar
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    Default Re: The War Without, The War Within (114)

    I'm not sure either. I guess only time will tell.

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