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  1. #1
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    Post Vaulting Ambition (112)

    Visit the Episode GuideSTAR TREK: DISCOVERY - SEASON ONE
    VAULTING AMBITION
    EPISODE NUMBER - 112
    Burnham delivers Captain Lorca to the Emperor of the mirror universe in an attempt to recover vital information, bringing her face-to-face with a haunting figure from her past. On Discovery Saru makes an appeal to their prisoner, while Lt. Stamets finds himself trapped inside the mycelial network with his other self.

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    Last edited by GateWorld; January 24th, 2018 at 10:19 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    ...and the surprises just keep coming


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    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    So I'm trying to figure out if I have the Voq/Tyler thing worked out. After typing this out a few times, and running through it in my head a bunch more times, I think I have this figured...


    1. Voq, the Klingon, is the Torchbearer selected by T'Kuvma, and does all the stuff he does for the first couple episodes

    2. Starfleet officer Ash Tyler, a real human, is captured at the Battle of the Binary Stars

    3. Voq & L'Rell have a physical/sexual relationship (off-screen), which we were seeing as Tyler's PTSD flashbacks a couple episodes back

    4. Voq & L'Rell hatch a plan to have Voq infiltrate Starfleet for reasons not yet disclosed - at first I thought it was to learn Discovery's secret, but Discovery didn't get the spore drive working till a few episodes in, so I'm not sure this is the reason why Voq would infiltrate

    5. L'Rell, using the human Ash Tyler as her template, mutilates (with consent) the Klingon Voq by cutting out muscle, cutting down bone, etc (as described by Dr Culber a few episodes back), to make him an identical physical match to Ash Tyler

    5A. To facilitate the match, the human Ash Tyler's organs are cut out of him and transplanted into Voq, replacing Voq's Klingon organs. This apparently includes the brain, which still has the real Ash Tyler's personality in it. Presumably at this point the original/human Ash Tyler's body is well and truly dead.

    5B. Voq's personality is somehow transplanted into the Ash Tyler human brain, which is now inside the Klingon body of Voq, which has been modified to appear human

    6. "Ash Tyler" is put into a cell because [reasons], under L'Rell's watchful governance, and sits there for x amount of time

    7. SOMEHOW the Klingons are able to ambush a Starfleet shuttle which just happens to have the captain of the ship they want to infiltrate aboard

    8. Lorca and "Ash Tyler" are allowed to escape so Voq can conduct whatever his mission is




    I think I have that right? Step 7 seems a little bit of a stretch, and I can't figure out what their mission was supposed to be.

    I also find it a bit strange that T'Kuvma loyalists--followers of a man hell-bent on Klingon racial purity--would 'defile' themselves by making T'Kuvma's personally-chosen heir into a human.


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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    This season is just getting better and better. Good story twists, talented actors, shiny special effects, beautiful sets. I have to tell you, I have never been a trekkie, but I am really impressed how this Star Trek : Discovery looks like. I wish the Stargate franchise would get such a treatment like the ST fans.
    "I was hoping for another day. Looks like we just got a whole lot more than that. Let's not waste it."

    "Never underestimate your audience. They're generally sensitive, intelligent people who respond positively to quality entertainment."

    "Individual science fiction stories may seem as trivial as ever to the blinder critics and philosophers of today, but the core of science fiction, its essence, has become crucial to our salvation, if we are to be saved at all."


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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    Quote Originally Posted by DigiFluid View Post
    So I'm trying to figure out if I have the Voq/Tyler thing worked out. After typing this out a few times, and running through it in my head a bunch more times, I think I have this figured...


    1. Voq, the Klingon, is the Torchbearer selected by T'Kuvma, and does all the stuff he does for the first couple episodes

    2. Starfleet officer Ash Tyler, a real human, is captured at the Battle of the Binary Stars

    3. Voq & L'Rell have a physical/sexual relationship (off-screen), which we were seeing as Tyler's PTSD flashbacks a couple episodes back

    4. Voq & L'Rell hatch a plan to have Voq infiltrate Starfleet for reasons not yet disclosed - at first I thought it was to learn Discovery's secret, but Discovery didn't get the spore drive working till a few episodes in, so I'm not sure this is the reason why Voq would infiltrate

    5. L'Rell, using the human Ash Tyler as her template, mutilates (with consent) the Klingon Voq by cutting out muscle, cutting down bone, etc (as described by Dr Culber a few episodes back), to make him an identical physical match to Ash Tyler

    5A. To facilitate the match, the human Ash Tyler's organs are cut out of him and transplanted into Voq, replacing Voq's Klingon organs. This apparently includes the brain, which still has the real Ash Tyler's personality in it. Presumably at this point the original/human Ash Tyler's body is well and truly dead.

    5B. Voq's personality is somehow transplanted into the Ash Tyler human brain, which is now inside the Klingon body of Voq, which has been modified to appear human

    6. "Ash Tyler" is put into a cell because [reasons], under L'Rell's watchful governance, and sits there for x amount of time

    7. SOMEHOW the Klingons are able to ambush a Starfleet shuttle which just happens to have the captain of the ship they want to infiltrate aboard

    8. Lorca and "Ash Tyler" are allowed to escape so Voq can conduct whatever his mission is




    I think I have that right? Step 7 seems a little bit of a stretch, and I can't figure out what their mission was supposed to be.

    I also find it a bit strange that T'Kuvma loyalists--followers of a man hell-bent on Klingon racial purity--would 'defile' themselves by making T'Kuvma's personally-chosen heir into a human.
    Pretty much exactly this, yes. Genetic manipulation is a thing even from this time in Trek History. We even have the episode of Enterprise where the Klingons were literally making their genetics more human in order to become stronger. (I actually have a theory that while Enterprise used this as a reason why the Klingons look more human in TOS, by Discovery's time they actually solved that problem but it meant that Klingons take on an appearance which is more extreme and closer to a less evolved ancestor.)

    It is unclear what exactly L'Rell and Voq wanted to achieve, but it may not actually be Discovery that they intended to infiltrate, just A Federation ship of some kind. That would explain Lorca's capture better because that way all they were looking for was any shuttle with an officer aboard. As for Voq willingly making himself human, L'Rell did tell him earlier in the season that he would have to lose everything he holds dear in order to succeed.

    This was a great episode, but in fact my favourite part of it was Saru. His scenes with Tilly and L'Rell were fantastic and if Lorca isn't Captain at the end of the season (likely) then I can totally see Saru being in command now.
    Also Stamets was a lot of fun and I felt so sad for him and Culper. There is fantastic chemistry between those two actors and it's a real shame we may not see them together any more.
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  6. #6
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    (I actually have a theory that while Enterprise used this as a reason why the Klingons look more human in TOS, by Discovery's time they actually solved that problem but it meant that Klingons take on an appearance which is more extreme and closer to a less evolved ancestor.)
    Explaining the new makeup away by suggesting they're trying to physically devolve? That's some interesting fanwank. Not sure I buy it, but it's an interesting thought to be sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    As for Voq willingly making himself human, L'Rell did tell him earlier in the season that he would have to lose everything he holds dear in order to succeed.
    You are...absolutely right. I had completely forgotten about that!

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    This was a great episode, but in fact my favourite part of it was Saru.
    Who knew barbecued Kelpien would be so delicious??

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    if Lorca isn't Captain at the end of the season (likely)
    I'm now starting to feel the same way. At least some of that is coming from past experience for me... He was excitedly announced as the primary villain of Star Wars Rebels a few years back, and then he was gone at the end of the first season. So I'm kind of wondering if this is Isaacs' M.O. for this sort of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    Also Stamets was a lot of fun and I felt so sad for him and Culper. There is fantastic chemistry between those two actors and it's a real shame we may not see them together any more.
    Come onnnnn, Mirror Culper!


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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    I think 5a is the only thing not quite there, to me she explained it that they used the original Ash Tyler's DNA to manipulate Vox's physiology from Klingon to Human, rather than physically transferring his organs, the PTSD is causing split personality, the original suppressed Klingon DNA is fighting back against the implanted human DNA.

    When the woman Klingon did the surgery she appeared to kill certain sections of his brain, maybe those were the bits that stored the suppressed Vox personality and her cry at the end appeared to indicate that in order to fix him, she's killed what remains of Vox.

    But then his physical scans did get past Starfleets checks and it was only when they looked deeper that the doc guy saw he wasn't totally human.

    I can see AshVox being Ash now and saving the day, his life will be spent making up for his transgressions and helping Starfleet defeat the Klingons, the original Ash Tyler from the battle of the binary stars is long dead. He will know what he is, but will choose to help Starfleet rather than destroy them, perhaps those 'in the know' will agree to cover it up, since obviously they've got the small problem that Lorka isn't the original Lorka to deal with too, and a fake captain infiltrating Starfleet is a bit more serious than junior security officer in the big picture of things.

    AshVox and the Klingon woman may even go on to have kids who look more like TOS era Klingons thanks to the influx of human DNA, explaining their look away that way etc.

    Talking of Lorka, am I the only one whose seen every twist coming a mile off? The only question I have is how did he get to our universe in the first place and where is the original Michael, dead perhaps?

    BTW, this ship from the future that came over they keep talking about, is this the Defiant from DS9 or Defiant from another period, it never seems clear when they mention the ships name.
    Last edited by Ian-S; January 23rd, 2018 at 11:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    Quote Originally Posted by DigiFluid View Post
    Explaining the new makeup away by suggesting they're trying to physically devolve? That's some interesting fanwank. Not sure I buy it, but it's an interesting thought to be sure.


    You are...absolutely right. I had completely forgotten about that!


    Who knew barbecued Kelpien would be so delicious??


    I'm now starting to feel the same way. At least some of that is coming from past experience for me... He was excitedly announced as the primary villain of Star Wars Rebels a few years back, and then he was gone at the end of the first season. So I'm kind of wondering if this is Isaacs' M.O. for this sort of thing.


    Come onnnnn, Mirror Culper!
    Oh I agree that the theory stretches belief a bit but I still like to at least try to fit this stuff into continuity. It doesn't bug me as much as it used to, now I just find it fun to theorise.

    The funny thing about the Kelpian's as food is that before this episode I came up with a great way to improve the conversation Burnham had with Saru over the comms previously. You know where he asks if she'd come across any Kelpians aboard. At that point I thought, wouldn't it be great if she just came clean with him. Just said, "Yes... I am so sorry, Saru, your people seem to be the Terran's slaves in this universe." and have Saru take a second to process this and respond by saying, "That is regrettable, however I must confess to being somewhat relieved." With Burnham looking puzzled he reiterates his point from the pilot that Kelpians were once bred as livestock and hunted for food. He'd put things in perspective for her and make a point that even in this worst of universes there are still things to be thankful for. Not only would this be something that would help Burnham's morale it would also give us a great character moment between the two... and then just a day or so later have her come to realise that the Terrans eat them as well... It would make that scene where she has to choke it down all the more horrifying, like "yep, these guys really are as bad they seem."

    Well sure there may be Mirror Culber (found out earlier I'd been hearing the name wrong.) but it's not going to be Stamet's Hugh. We'll just see what happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-S View Post
    I think 5a is the only thing not quite there, to me she explained it that they used the original Ash Tyler's DNA to manipulate Vox's physiology from Klingon to Human, rather than physically transferring his organs, the PTSD is causing split personality, the original suppressed Klingon DNA is fighting back against the implanted human DNA.

    When the woman Klingon did the surgery she appeared to kill certain sections of his brain, maybe those were the bits that stored the suppressed Vox personality and her cry at the end appeared to indicate that in order to fix him, she's killed what remains of Vox.

    But then his physical scans did get past Starfleets checks and it was only when they looked deeper that the doc guy saw he wasn't totally human.

    I can see AshVox being Ash now and saving the day, his life will be spent making up for his transgressions and helping Starfleet defeat the Klingons, the original Ash Tyler from the battle of the binary stars is long dead. He will know what he is, but will choose to help Starfleet rather than destroy them, perhaps those 'in the know' will agree to cover it up, since obviously they've got the small problem that Lorka isn't the original Lorka to deal with too, and a fake captain infiltrating Starfleet is a bit more serious than junior security officer in the big picture of things.

    AshVox and the Klingon woman may even go on to have kids who look more like TOS era Klingons thanks to the influx of human DNA, explaining their look away that way etc.

    Talking of Lorka, am I the only one whose seen every twist coming a mile off? The only question I have is how did he get to our universe in the first place and where is the original Michael, dead perhaps?

    BTW, this ship from the future that came over they keep talking about, is this the Defiant from DS9 or Defiant from another period, it never seems clear when they mention the ships name.
    Definitely not the only one to see these twists. Lorca has been hinted to be from the mirror universe all season, from his man-cave of death to how he reacted when that Admiral woke him up in bed and the scars on his back. And of course how they are in the Mirror universe because he sent them there to begin with. But... yes, the question is why and how did he originally get to the Prime universe. That I do really want to know.

    Voq did still undergo some surgery where he was opened up and we even see organs getting removed so I suspect that while is genetics were clearly made human there was still significant work that needed to be done on him. With this though I suspect it's one of those things that we just need to accept the Klingons can do without looking too far into it. Additonally I'm hoping they don't just make his switch to Ash Tyler that easy. I mean from the looks of it Voq is now dead but surely Ash will be pretty... messed up mentally now.

    Also Discovery is set only 10 years before TOS so it's far too close to create the TOS era Klingons just through natural breeding.

    As for the Defiant. No. It isn't DS9's. They do show you a picture of it in the episode where they first get to the Mirror universe.

    It's also featured in the TOS episode "Tholian Web" where it first disappears and again in the ENT episode "In a Mirror Darkly." If you're unfamiliar with the Lore then I'll give you a quick run down.

    In TOS "Tholian Web" Kirk and his Enterprise come to the aid of their sister ship, USS Defiant which is trapped in a region called "Interphasic Space". All its crew are dead already and by the end of the episode it disappears without a trace. (Keep in mind TOS is ten years after Discovery, so as far as the Discovery crew are concerned this hasn't happened in their timeline yet.)

    In Enterprise "In a Mirror Darkly" it's revealed that the Defiant actually reappeared in the Mirror Universe and was captured in secret by the Tholians. The Terrans of the 22nd Century (so a hundred years BEFORE discovery) steal the ship from the Tholians and thus they both learns about the Prime universe's United Federation of Planets and obtain a ship which is more powerful than anything else they have in their timeline.

    As we now know from Discovery, Defiant was held as a closely guarded secret all these years but it allowed the Emperor to know of the existence of the UFP.
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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    Thanks, now that makes sense.

    BTW both Burnham and Lorka were on a British magazine show the other week (before xmas) called The One Show and they said that although the producers were trying to respect canon, they could right up until the end of the series pretty much do whatever they wanted as long as anything not canon was either lost or destroyed before the series ended, he essentially said nothing we've seen will survive the series, himself included, as they were not re-writing Trek history, just filling in some gaps.

    This was in response to being asked about fan anger at the aparant differences to traditional Trek so I'll predict it now, Discovery will be destroyed along with all its technology before the end of the series (I know it's been renewed, but the Enterprise has been destroyed more times than I have had hot dinners lol).

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-S View Post
    Thanks, now that makes sense.

    BTW both Burnham and Lorka were on a British magazine show the other week (before xmas) called The One Show and they said that although the producers were trying to respect canon, they could right up until the end of the series pretty much do whatever they wanted as long as anything not canon was either lost or destroyed before the series ended, he essentially said nothing we've seen will survive the series, himself included, as they were not re-writing Trek history, just filling in some gaps.

    This was in response to being asked about fan anger at the aparant differences to traditional Trek so I'll predict it now, Discovery will be destroyed along with all its technology before the end of the series (I know it's been renewed, but the Enterprise has been destroyed more times than I have had hot dinners lol).
    Yeah I have heard something similar. However I feel it's pretty crappy that they need to do this. I know there was a lot of fan service done in the 90's shows to ensure that the TOS sets and ships looked the same whenever they went back in time or such like in the "The Trouble With Tribbles" or "In a Mirror Darkly" and there are a lot of ways you can explain away SOME physical differences. The Klingon head ridges thing is a prime example, and so on... but I mean... TOS has some very outdated notions in it. The computer has a ticker-tape sound and says "WORKING!" while it tries to answer a simple question for 30 seconds or so. The TOS equivalent of PADDS which Yeoman use to bring Kirk duty rosters and such look like bricks and all in all there are some functions aboard ship which could be run by computer even by today's standards. We need to admit that it simply would be unrealistic to show that ship just as it was in a modern show. It was unrealistic to do so in TNG, DS9 and Enterprise, but they did because no one ever thought they'd do a prequel show at the time.

    I hope that if we do see a constitution class ship somewhere along the line in the flesh then it has a look which is in keeping with TOS but still fits in with Discovery aesthetics, including the internal decks. Don't make the Bridge look massive and don't touch the scale but do whatever you want with how it looks visually. And then just as a throw away line just have the crew say something like "She's due for a full refit and overhaul in a month." just to leave that point to fans that the ship can be refitted to look like the 60's ship in just the same way that the original Motion Picture made the ship look completely different with whole new sets and merely said "It's been undergoing a refit for a year".

    In fact I've seen a lot of people say that the image of the Defiant from Discovery must look like that because of changes the Terrans have made to it over the years to make it a warship. To hell with that, I say that's how the constitution class looked in its original form before their first refit after 20 - 25 years of service.
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  11. #11
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-S View Post
    Thanks, now that makes sense.

    BTW both Burnham and Lorka were on a British magazine show the other week (before xmas) called The One Show and they said that although the producers were trying to respect canon, they could right up until the end of the series pretty much do whatever they wanted as long as anything not canon was either lost or destroyed before the series ended, he essentially said nothing we've seen will survive the series, himself included, as they were not re-writing Trek history, just filling in some gaps.

    This was in response to being asked about fan anger at the aparant differences to traditional Trek so I'll predict it now, Discovery will be destroyed along with all its technology before the end of the series (I know it's been renewed, but the Enterprise has been destroyed more times than I have had hot dinners lol).
    Meh. Sounds like they were just politely saying "stop f'ing whining," to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    I hope that if we do see a constitution class ship somewhere along the line in the flesh then it has a look which is in keeping with TOS but still fits in with Discovery aesthetics,
    I'm still gambling that we'll actually see the Defiant before the end of the season...


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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    Quote Originally Posted by DigiFluid View Post
    Meh. Sounds like they were just politely saying "stop f'ing whining," to me.


    I'm still gambling that we'll actually see the Defiant before the end of the season...
    I was making that bet at first too, but I'm not so sure now. From the sounds of it the Defiant data is now moot since Burnham and the Emperor have some sort of accord.
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  13. #13
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    Quote Originally Posted by P-90_177 View Post
    I was making that bet at first too, but I'm not so sure now. From the sounds of it the Defiant data is now moot since Burnham and the Emperor have some sort of accord.
    Wouldn't it be a fun 'soft reboot' if the end of the season saw them abandon Discovery in the Mirror Universe because they can't get it to go home, and they take the Defiant instead?

    I mean, it would be a continuity atomic bomb, but it would be fun


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    Default Re: Vaulting Ambition (112)

    Quote Originally Posted by DigiFluid View Post
    Meh. Sounds like they were just politely saying "stop f'ing whining," to me.
    Isaac did say something similar, Soniq is quiet used to fans thanks to TWD but he was a bit un-nerved when people started stopping him in the street and complained about things, he said sometimes like he wished he could tell them to shut the hell up and enjoy the story, or words to that effect.

    I do remember they changed the subject to Harry Potter quick as he almost swore and that's a big no no on this show at the time it goes out lol.

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