This is why you learn how your cars work.

[Annoyed]

This is not a fit for any of the threads around here, so I thought I would put up a new one.

Several times, I've advocated that an understanding of the basic mechanical principles that make cars work should be required in order to get a license. Some folks here didn't like that idea so much, saying that they shouldn't have to know how it works in order to drive it. What happened today is a prefect example of why this basic knowledge should be required.

My vehicle was due for it's annual state inspection, and the place I normally go is short on employees & couldn't do it on a Saturday. No licensed inspectors working Saturdays. So I took it to another shop in the same chain.

NYS V&T laws require that none of the engine management warnings be active in order to pass inspection, and the stored codes can't have been reset recently. However, the federally mandated tire pressure warning systems are NOT part of this.

The TPS warning light has been on for a few weeks now, the problem is the spare, which slowly leaks down over the course of a year or two. It typically comes on with the onset of cold weather, when the lower temps. reduce the pressure in the tire enough to trip the sensor. Not a problem, I just didn't get a chance to drop the spare and put more air in it.

This kid running the shop tries to tell me that the vehicle fails inspection because of the TPS warning. I knew he was wrong, but rather than argue, I told 'em to fix the slow leak and that would be the end of it. It ought to be fixed anyway.

He then produces this scanning tool which supposedly detects the signals coming from the sending units in the tires, and tells me that all 5 sending units are dead & need to be replaced @ $70 + labor per. Well over $400 bucks, closer to 5 with tax.

Common sense and a basic understanding of mechanics tells me that there is no way on God's green earth that 5 sending units in 5 separate tires have failed simultaneously. So, I declined the "repair" and took it to another shop. On the way, I stopped home, dropped the spare and filled it to spec. Voila! So much for the warning light. It went out. I also hooked an OBD scanner up to the diagnostic port and checked for codes. There were none related to the TPS system.

Took the vehicle to another shop, had the inspection done and was out the door for just the state mandated $21 dollar fee.

So, by having an understanding of basic mechanics and common sense, I prevented the first shop from scamming me for around $500 bucks. But I wonder how many mechanically ignorant customers this kid has scammed. I can't think of a better argument to require a basic understanding of how a car works in order to drive one.

I will be discussing the kid who was running that shop with the chain's district manager at the first opportunity. The chain itself is reputable, and has been in business for more than 40 years. I suspect that his career will be somewhat shorter.

[SoulReaver]

I suspect that his career will be somewhat shorter.

if you didn't rat him out to his boss & no one else does then why would he have anything other than a long prosperous career?

[Annoyed]

if you didn't rat him out to his boss & no one else does then why would he have anything other than a long prosperous career?

I am going to blow him in. Why shouldn't I? He tried to scam me for a pretty good chunk of change. If I was really going for blood, I would involve law enforcement.

Lemme guess. You think he should be allowed to scam people like that?

[jelgate]

I think the real issue is how low vehicle standards are that they still allow someone as old as Annoyed to operate a vehicle

[Ian-S]

Had the same a few years ago, over here the spare isn't part of the MOT, but had some skipper fail the cars MOT based on the spare not being of legal tread depth, asked to see manager who immediately issued a valid MOT, the kids reason? At the last place he worked they always found something to fail the car on (said right in front of me too), managers face was a picture, don't think he works there anymore, I found a new garage who knows what they are doing.

Ironically the kid failed to notice a fluid leak on the power steering box, which is a failure.

[mad_gater]

This is not a fit for any of the threads around here, so I thought I would put up a new one.

Several times, I've advocated that an understanding of the basic mechanical principles that make cars work should be required in order to get a license. Some folks here didn't like that idea so much, saying that they shouldn't have to know how it works in order to drive it. What happened today is a prefect example of why this basic knowledge should be required.

My vehicle was due for it's annual state inspection, and the place I normally go is short on employees & couldn't do it on a Saturday. No licensed inspectors working Saturdays. So I took it to another shop in the same chain.

NYS V&T laws require that none of the engine management warnings be active in order to pass inspection, and the stored codes can't have been reset recently. However, the federally mandated tire pressure warning systems are NOT part of this.

The TPS warning light has been on for a few weeks now, the problem is the spare, which slowly leaks down over the course of a year or two. It typically comes on with the onset of cold weather, when the lower temps. reduce the pressure in the tire enough to trip the sensor. Not a problem, I just didn't get a chance to drop the spare and put more air in it.

This kid running the shop tries to tell me that the vehicle fails inspection because of the TPS warning. I knew he was wrong, but rather than argue, I told 'em to fix the slow leak and that would be the end of it. It ought to be fixed anyway.

He then produces this scanning tool which supposedly detects the signals coming from the sending units in the tires, and tells me that all 5 sending units are dead & need to be replaced @ $70 + labor per. Well over $400 bucks, closer to 5 with tax.

Common sense and a basic understanding of mechanics tells me that there is no way on God's green earth that 5 sending units in 5 separate tires have failed simultaneously. So, I declined the "repair" and took it to another shop. On the way, I stopped home, dropped the spare and filled it to spec. Voila! So much for the warning light. It went out. I also hooked an OBD scanner up to the diagnostic port and checked for codes. There were none related to the TPS system.

Took the vehicle to another shop, had the inspection done and was out the door for just the state mandated $21 dollar fee.

So, by having an understanding of basic mechanics and common sense, I prevented the first shop from scamming me for around $500 bucks. But I wonder how many mechanically ignorant customers this kid has scammed. I can't think of a better argument to require a basic understanding of how a car works in order to drive one.

I will be discussing the kid who was running that shop with the chain's district manager at the first opportunity. The chain itself is reputable, and has been in business for more than 40 years. I suspect that his career will be somewhat shorter.

the way I'd deal with such an obvious scammer is to ask to see a hard copy printout of the report from the diagnostic computer.....if they can't produce the printout I go to another shop

[Annoyed]

Had the same a few years ago, over here the spare isn't part of the MOT, but had some skipper fail the cars MOT based on the spare not being of legal tread depth, asked to see manager who immediately issued a valid MOT, the kids reason? At the last place he worked they always found something to fail the car on (said right in front of me too), managers face was a picture, don't think he works there anymore, I found a new garage who knows what they are doing.

Ironically the kid failed to notice a fluid leak on the power steering box, which is a failure.

I am fully aware of what goes on in some shops, having worked as a mechanic in the 70's, 80's and 90's. There were a few places I just packed up and left, it was such a lousy environment. I had one (boat) place owner tell me to clean shavings out of the gas tank with a shop-vac because the OEM warranty was too cheap to pay for removal of the tank. I gave him a straight explanation of why that is a bad idea, but he still insisted. I walked back to the shop, loaded my tools in my truck & never looked back.
And you can't tell where it might happen. I've walked out of "Big Four" (GM/Ford/Chrysler/AMC) dealerships too.

This crap is all too common, and that's why people have to have an awareness of the basics, so they don't get shafted.

It's not all that difficult. Hell, for anything past 1194? or so, OBD II is required. You can buy a gadget for about $35 bucks, install software on your laptop or gadget, and talk directly with the onboard computers in the car. Current and recorded data on almost every thing the engine does, as well as data about the drivetrain and some other systems. This is great for the dreaded "check engine" light. Plug the computer in, ask the car what's wrong and it tells you. Even if you can't replace the part yourself, at least you don't have to blindly take the shop's word that you need a new flux capacitor. Quite often, it's something simple. Last CE light I had stored a code for "Evaporative emission control" system not sealed or some such. Replaced the gas cap, cleared the code and was done. I think the gas cap cost $15 bucks.

And that check engine light is a huge moneymaker for shops.

[Gatefan1976]

Sorry folks, Annoyed is right here.

[P-90_177]

The only thing with this is that the same thing can be said about practically anything. Knowledge of computers can save you a fortune in repair costs. Same with any kind of DIY knowledge. If you don't learn the skill then you can potentially get taken for a ride by repair people. Now is that a reason for people not to learn? Well no, quite the opposite in fact, but at the end of the day people only have so much time on their hands and some people just aren't all that mechanically minded. Don't get me wrong, people definitely need to be taught how to say, change a tire or a headlight bulb, that kind of thing, but anything more in-depth will go over many people's heads.

[Annoyed]

Sorry folks, Annoyed is right here.

Oh, goody. Signature material.

[Annoyed]

the way I'd deal with such an obvious scammer is to ask to see a hard copy printout of the report from the diagnostic computer.....if they can't produce the printout I go to another shop

He didn't even plug it into the shop's scanner. This was just a hand-held dingus that he claimed should pickup the signal from TPS sending unit in the wheels. His claim that all 5 sending units were dead, meaning they had all failed at the same time was what threw my internal "check BS" warning.

[mad_gater]

He didn't even plug it into the shop's scanner. This was just a hand-held dingus that he claimed should pickup the signal from TPS sending unit in the wheels. His claim that all 5 sending units were dead, meaning they had all failed at the same time was what threw my internal "check BS" warning.

oh I know but the hand-held thing should still be capable of generating a viewable report...but even though my knowledge of cars and their mechanics is limited....the fact that he was telling me that a bunch of stuff failed all at once would sound fishy to me and thus I'd ask to see a report and threaten to take my business elsewhere if he doesn't produce one....mainly in hopes that he'd suddenly acquire some honesty in his business transactions....if not...well there are plenty of other REPUTABLE mechanics *shrug*

[mad_gater]

The only thing with this is that the same thing can be said about practically anything. Knowledge of computers can save you a fortune in repair costs. Same with any kind of DIY knowledge. If you don't learn the skill then you can potentially get taken for a ride by repair people. Now is that a reason for people not to learn? Well no, quite the opposite in fact, but at the end of the day people only have so much time on their hands and some people just aren't all that mechanically minded. Don't get me wrong, people definitely need to be taught how to say, change a tire or a headlight bulb, that kind of thing, but anything more in-depth will go over many people's heads.

or maybe not acquire mechanical knowledge of cars but acquire a very strong "this sounds fishy" internal alarm bell

[jelgate]

Sorry folks, Annoyed is right here.

I thought the Apocalypse would have more locusts and blood rivers

[thekillman]

Several times, I've advocated that an understanding of the basic mechanical principles that make cars work should be required in order to get a license. Some folks here didn't like that idea so much, saying that they shouldn't have to know how it works in order to drive it. What happened today is a prefect example of why this basic knowledge should be required.

The problem with this is... what is the "basic" principle of a car? To be precise - of a modern car.

To understand the basics of an engine you need to understand basic thermodynamics (and for that, basic physics). But a modern engine isn't the mechanical piece of work it once was. You need an electric engineering degree to get the electronic aspect.

But there's more. The body is usually made of a collection of materials including steels, but i can guarantee you that if you tried to apply basic welding techniques you'd screw it up completely, since it involved various advanced high strength steels that require specialist knowledge to weld.

Suspension? electronics. Tires? electronics. Every corner of your modern car has electronics. Of the really annoying low-voltage type so basic electrical knowledge won't necessarily help.

Then there's everything under the hood, which is nowadays crammed so tight you need a blueprint of the damned thing to take it apart and put it together, just to change the headlights.

Which raises the question (once more), what is basic knowledge of a car? Because i can also guarantee you that almost every single thing you got taught in school was an approximation or generalization of something. And such generalizations don't necessarily apply, not to your car or other things.

Then there's aforementioned statistics, and well it turns out people's intuition for statistics sucks. hard. Like, really hard. If the average person were to make an intuitive guess, they're almost better off picking the other option. After all, what is a lottery but mass exploitation of this?

At what point do you have enough knowledge to get by? At what point is it still basic?

So, by having an understanding of basic mechanics and common sense

Common sense isn't really common. If you can find a way to teach it in a way that scales to 300+ million people on the average school's budget, patent it and get rich.