LOTR TV Series coming to Amazon!

[DigiFluid]

Well... your knowledge puts my love of LOTR to shame haha!

A life well-wasted

I watched (and loved, still do) the films as a kid then read the LOTR trilogy and the additions at the end and The Hobbit,

Yep me too...my sixth grade English teacher had us read The Hobbit and I loved it. The LOTR films came out when I was in high school -- I was actually working at the local movie theatre at the time

knew about the Silmarillion but never started them as they kinda daunted me, reading your summary Im quite glad I didnt as I would be so lost!

Nah, I'm sure you'd be fine. The Silmarillion itself is really just divided into three unequal parts:
1) The Genesis story, that Music stuff I was talking about above. Even as a Tolkien nerd, I find it a bit dry and am not too upset if I skip it
2) The Elves in Valinor and the First Age. This is by far the bulk of the book, and is written kind of as a series of interconnected short stories in mostly chronological order until the end of the First Age.
3) A mini-short story about Numenor.

That's it. For my two cents, the stories told in the main part of the book are far more epic and tragic than anything else in the whole history of the Legendarium.

All that business about the Second Age? That's pieced together from the Numenor part of The Silmarillion, backstory in LOTR, the Appendices in LOTR, and the book of Unfinished Tales. There's no single book or series of books that details all of it, you kind of have to do the work yourself (or else hit up the Wikia), because Tolkien never took the time to assemble it into a single narrative.

Question though, didnt Sam leave Middle Earth? Im sure I read he left after Frodo but I might have read a fan fic... Also didnt Legolas and Gimli go off somewhere?

You know what...you are absolutely right. For Sam, once he gets back to the Shire and starts a family with Rosie, I tend to think of that as the end of his story because he has his family, becomes Mayor, and finishes Bilbo's Red Book. But you're right -- decades later, he's also granted leave to go into the West, because he had also been a Ringbearer (however briefly).

Legolas and Gimli hung out together a lot after the War of the Ring, going exploring and sightseeing throughout Middle Earth. As an Elf, the standing invitation to return to Valinor included him, so ultimately he went into the West as well--and brought Gimli with him.

So, two things I forgot. Whoops

[Teddybrown]

I would love a road trip style show of Gimli and Legolas touring Middle Earth together, really liked their story in the films of gaining respect for eachother!

Shame John Rhys-Davies cant stand the make up due to allergic reactions, the main reason he didnt appear in The Hobbit despite being invited.

[Chaka-Z0]

So, two things I forgot. Whoops

Also the movies didn't show the uprising of the Hobbits and Sarouman who had taken over control of the Shire, after the Ring was destroyed. Frodo killed him right?

[DigiFluid]

Also the movies didn't show the uprising of the Hobbits and Sarouman who had taken over control of the Shire, after the Ring was destroyed. Frodo killed him right?

Yeah the Shire was conquered by Saruman after his defeat as Isengard, and the 'scouring of the Shire' is what the Hobbits came home to after Mordor and the celebrations in Gondor. It makes a certain logical sense, but I always thought it felt a little tacked-on.

Saruman was murdered by Grima Wormtongue though (slit his throat), not Frodo. If I remember right, I believe it happened either inside or just outside the door of Bag-End.

[Chaka-Z0]

Yeah the Shire was conquered by Saruman after his defeat as Isengard, and the 'scouring of the Shire' is what the Hobbits came home to after Mordor and the celebrations in Gondor. It makes a certain logical sense, but I always thought it felt a little tacked-on.

Saruman was murdered by Grima Wormtongue though (slit his throat), not Frodo. If I remember right, I believe it happened either inside or just outside the door of Bag-End.

Wormtongue was shot by arrows then, I know one of them died at the hands of the hobbits.

[Gatefan1976]

Wormtongue was shot by arrows then, I know one of them died at the hands of the hobbits.

Not in return of the king, the book. Wormtongue was still his advisor/stoolie in the shire.

[DigiFluid]

Not in return of the king, the book. Wormtongue was still his advisor/stoolie in the shire.

Presumably Chaka meant after Wormtongue murders Saruman. (And he’s right - book Grima was shot with an arrow by a Hobbit, rather than by Legolas as in the film)

[Gatefan1976]

Presumably Chaka meant after Wormtongue murders Saruman. (And he’s right - book Grima was shot with an arrow by a Hobbit, rather than by Legolas as in the film)

Just trying to clarify the timeline.
Saruman was not killed in Isengard, but in the shire.

[DigiFluid]

Looks like it IS going to be in the Second Age after all!

[Chaka-Z0]

The Gods are pleased.

[magi877]

So this will apparently be set in Numenor(probably spelt that wrong) focussing on the rise of Sauron, and not centre on a young Aragorn as everyone thought...

i am sure since it is a series, we will see numenor and the other kingdoms of men, elves and dwarves in middle earth in the 2nd age

the problem? it is said that amazon wants a got's type of show as far as attraction wise, i see some major room for ****ery here. numenor especially- the lives of the kings there as described by Tolkien, leaves much room for all kinds of imagination

we could see all manner of deviant sex and murder, torture, human sacrifice, etc. all in the name of snagging some viewers

the price we,and tolkien's legacy will pay for tolkien leaving out so many details about the 2nd age in his writings

but i hope i am wrong

[DigiFluid]

I don't think that's wrong. By the time of the fall of Numenor, they had descended into some pretty vile stuff. Yes, they're the descendants of Elrond's brother, and yes they're the ancestors of Aragon, but the late/faithless Numenoreans were not nice people.

[DigiFluid]

I assume the show will largely stick to the broader Tolkien canon of the Second Age, but since there's a lot of 'event x happened between years y and z' but there are very few details fleshing that out, they have a lot of room to fill things in as the show's writers please.

For interest's sake, here's an outline of the major events in the Second Age (years). Bearing in mind that the Men of Numenor were very long-lived :


Early in the Second Age
1 S.A. - The Elves found the Grey Havens on the (new) westernmost shore of the world, following Beleriand's destruction in the War of Wrath
32 S.A. - Men survivors of the War of Wrath land on the island of Numenor and found their new kingdom with Elros (mortal half-Elven brother of Elrond) as their first king
Approx. 40 S.A. - Dwarves of the various kingdoms collectively migrate to and settle in Khazad-dum (Moria)
442 S.A. - Elros, first King of Numenor, dies of old age at 500 years
Approx. 500 S.A. - Sauron resurfaces in Middle Earth, in the far east

Light rising in Middle Earth
600 S.A. - Numenorean sailors travel to the mainland for the first time, meet the Men of Eregion
725-735 S.A. - Aldarion, Prince of Numenor, makes numerous exploratory voyages to Middle Earth
739 S.A. - Aldarion returns home to Numenor with gifts/friendship from the Elf lord Gil-galad
750 S.A. - Galadriel and Celeborn found a city in Eregion, west of the Misty Mountains
806-869 S.A. - Aldarion's voyages continue

Sauron's machinations begin
1000 S.A. - Sauron begins construction of Barad-dur, the Black Tower
1200 S.A. - Numenoreans begin to construct permanent settlements/fortifications in Middle Earth, Sauron adopts the identity "Annatar" and befriends the Elves of Eregion
Approx. 1350 S.A. - Galadriel and Celeborn leave their city in Eregion and travel to Lothlorien, where they will remain Lady and Lord until the end of the Third Age
1500 S.A. - Sauron, still posing as a being named Annatar, works with the Elf lord Celebrimbor to forge the fifteen Rings of Power (the Nine for lords of Men, six for the Dwarf lords), before departing to pursue his own machinations
1590 S.A. - Celebrimbor, alone, forges the Three Rings of Power for the Elf lords (Ring of Adamant for Galadriel, Ring of Fire for Cirdan the Shipwright, Ring of Air for Gil-galad

War of the Elves and Sauron
1600 S.A. - Sauron forges the One Ring, Sauron completes Barad-dur, Sauron sheds the Annatar deception and openly proclaims himself
1693 S.A. - The Three Rings are hidden, War of the Elves and Sauron begins
1697 S.A. - Sauron's forces sack Eregion, Celebrimbor is killed, Imladris (Rivendell) is founded, Khazad-dum closes its gates
1699 S.A. - Sauron's forces have completely overrun Eriador
1700 S.A. - Numenoreans intervene in the war and singlehandedly overwhelm Sauron's armies. Seeing defeat but sensing opportunity, Sauron allows himself to be captured and taken back to Numenor. He will spend the next 1600 years there, initially as a prisoner, but gradually ingratiating himself with generation after generation of Numenorean royalty, becoming a trusted advisor, slowly poisoning them against both the Elves and the Valar

The decline and fall of Numenor
2251 S.A. - The Numenorean king's royalist allies swear to never again speak or write Elven languages, the Nazgul first appear in Middle Earth
2350 S.A. - The first haven of the Faithful Numenoreans (those not buying Sauron's crap, but unable/unwilling to challenge their own king) is constructed in Middle Earth
3117 S.A. - Elven language is officially banned in Numenor, and Elves are barred from visiting the island
3177 S.A. - Civil war in Numenor
3310 S.A. - By now, Sauron has convinced the king of Numenor that the Valar are weak beings hoarding immortality, that if Men would only sail into the west, they could seize Valinor--and immortality--for themselves. Numenor declares war on the Valar (the gods), and begins building a naval invasion fleet to make the voyage west
3319 S.A. - Ar-Pharazon, faithless king of Numenor, sets foot on the eternal shores of Valinor with an army at his back. A mortal setting foot in the immortal lands is the highest crime imaginable, and the world is remade once more -- the Valar (remember: gods of this world, but lesser than the one true god Eru), appeal to Eru to break and remake the world once more, severing the Blessed Lands from the rest of the world forever. Ar-Pharazon, 25th and last King of Numenor, his army, and his navy are all destroyed. The isle of Numenor is destroyed and sunk beneath the ocean for its sin

Gondor, Arnor, and the War of the Last Alliance
3320 S.A. - Elendil of the Faithful Numenoreans founds the Kingdom of Arnor in the northern lands of Middle Earth, while his sons Isildur and Anarion found the Kingdom of Gondor in the south
3429 S.A. - Sauron, whom the Men of Gondor believed dead along with the isle of Numenor, launches a surprise attack and seizes control of Gondorean city Minas Ithil, the seat of King Isildur (many centuries later, this will be Minas Morgul). Isildur escapes to join his father Elendil in Arnor, beginning negotiations with the Elves even as Anarion remains in Gondor defending Osgiliath and Minas Anor (centuries later, Minas Tirith)
3430 S.A. - The Last Alliance of Elves and Men is formed, to battle Sauron once more
3431 S.A. - The Last Alliance marches east, hooking up with Elrond at Imladris, and being joined by the Dwarves of Khazad-dum as they continue east past the Misty Mountains, and then south along the Anduin toward Mordor
3434 S.A. - The Battle of Dagorlad rages in marshlands for days and nights nonstop, leaving countless thousands of bodies. Many centuries later, this area will be known as the Dead Marshes. After reaching Mordor, the Siege of Barad-dur begins
3440 S.A. - Anarion is killed by a projectile fired from Barad-dur
3441 S.A. - Sauron's forces burst from the Black Tower and very nearly break the Siege, pressing all the way to the slopes of Mount Doom. Sauron personally faces down Gil-galad, Elendil, Elrond, Círdan and Isildur. Gil-galad and Elendil are slain, but Isildur uses the broken blade of his father to cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand, dispersing his physical being and sending his armies into disarray. The Alliance defeats the dark army and razes Barad-dur to the ground, though unable to destroy its foundations owing to it being constructed with the power of the One Ring. Isildur refuses Elrond and Cirdan's urging to throw the Ring into the fires of Mount Doom, claiming it as a trophy won by the sacrifices of his father and brother

[magi877]

I assume the show will largely stick to the broader Tolkien canon of the Second Age, but since there's a lot of 'event x happened between years y and z' but there are very few details fleshing that out, they have a lot of room to fill things in as the show's writers please.

For interest's sake, here's an outline of the major events in the Second Age (years). Bearing in mind that the Men of Numenor were very long-lived :


Early in the Second Age
1 S.A. - The Elves found the Grey Havens on the (new) westernmost shore of the world, following Beleriand's destruction in the War of Wrath
32 S.A. - Men survivors of the War of Wrath land on the island of Numenor and found their new kingdom with Elros (mortal half-Elven brother of Elrond) as their first king
Approx. 40 S.A. - Dwarves of the various kingdoms collectively migrate to and settle in Khazad-dum (Moria)
442 S.A. - Elros, first King of Numenor, dies of old age at 500 years
Approx. 500 S.A. - Sauron resurfaces in Middle Earth, in the far east

Light rising in Middle Earth
600 S.A. - Numenorean sailors travel to the mainland for the first time, meet the Men of Eregion
725-735 S.A. - Aldarion, Prince of Numenor, makes numerous exploratory voyages to Middle Earth
739 S.A. - Aldarion returns home to Numenor with gifts/friendship from the Elf lord Gil-galad
750 S.A. - Galadriel and Celeborn found a city in Eregion, west of the Misty Mountains
806-869 S.A. - Aldarion's voyages continue

Sauron's machinations begin
1000 S.A. - Sauron begins construction of Barad-dur, the Black Tower
1200 S.A. - Numenoreans begin to construct permanent settlements/fortifications in Middle Earth, Sauron adopts the identity "Annatar" and befriends the Elves of Eregion
Approx. 1350 S.A. - Galadriel and Celeborn leave their city in Eregion and travel to Lothlorien, where they will remain Lady and Lord until the end of the Third Age
1500 S.A. - Sauron, still posing as a being named Annatar, works with the Elf lord Celebrimbor to forge the fifteen Rings of Power (the Nine for lords of Men, six for the Dwarf lords), before departing to pursue his own machinations
1590 S.A. - Celebrimbor, alone, forges the Three Rings of Power for the Elf lords (Ring of Adamant for Galadriel, Ring of Fire for Cirdan the Shipwright, Ring of Air for Gil-galad

War of the Elves and Sauron
1600 S.A. - Sauron forges the One Ring, Sauron completes Barad-dur, Sauron sheds the Annatar deception and openly proclaims himself
1693 S.A. - The Three Rings are hidden, War of the Elves and Sauron begins
1697 S.A. - Sauron's forces sack Eregion, Celebrimbor is killed, Imladris (Rivendell) is founded, Khazad-dum closes its gates
1699 S.A. - Sauron's forces have completely overrun Eriador
1700 S.A. - Numenoreans intervene in the war and singlehandedly overwhelm Sauron's armies. Seeing defeat but sensing opportunity, Sauron allows himself to be captured and taken back to Numenor. He will spend the next 1600 years there, initially as a prisoner, but gradually ingratiating himself with generation after generation of Numenorean royalty, becoming a trusted advisor, slowly poisoning them against both the Elves and the Valar

The decline and fall of Numenor
2251 S.A. - The Numenorean king's royalist allies swear to never again speak or write Elven languages, the Nazgul first appear in Middle Earth
2350 S.A. - The first haven of the Faithful Numenoreans (those not buying Sauron's crap, but unable/unwilling to challenge their own king) is constructed in Middle Earth
3117 S.A. - Elven language is officially banned in Numenor, and Elves are barred from visiting the island
3177 S.A. - Civil war in Numenor
3310 S.A. - By now, Sauron has convinced the king of Numenor that the Valar are weak beings hoarding immortality, that if Men would only sail into the west, they could seize Valinor--and immortality--for themselves. Numenor declares war on the Valar (the gods), and begins building a naval invasion fleet to make the voyage west
3319 S.A. - Ar-Pharazon, faithless king of Numenor, sets foot on the eternal shores of Valinor with an army at his back. A mortal setting foot in the immortal lands is the highest crime imaginable, and the world is remade once more -- the Valar (remember: gods of this world, but lesser than the one true god Eru), appeal to Eru to break and remake the world once more, severing the Blessed Lands from the rest of the world forever. Ar-Pharazon, 25th and last King of Numenor, his army, and his navy are all destroyed. The isle of Numenor is destroyed and sunk beneath the ocean for its sin

Gondor, Arnor, and the War of the Last Alliance
3320 S.A. - Elendil of the Faithful Numenoreans founds the Kingdom of Arnor in the northern lands of Middle Earth, while his sons Isildur and Anarion found the Kingdom of Gondor in the south
3429 S.A. - Sauron, whom the Men of Gondor believed dead along with the isle of Numenor, launches a surprise attack and seizes control of Gondorean city Minas Ithil, the seat of King Isildur (many centuries later, this will be Minas Morgul). Isildur escapes to join his father Elendil in Arnor, beginning negotiations with the Elves even as Anarion remains in Gondor defending Osgiliath and Minas Anor (centuries later, Minas Tirith)
3430 S.A. - The Last Alliance of Elves and Men is formed, to battle Sauron once more
3431 S.A. - The Last Alliance marches east, hooking up with Elrond at Imladris, and being joined by the Dwarves of Khazad-dum as they continue east past the Misty Mountains, and then south along the Anduin toward Mordor
3434 S.A. - The Battle of Dagorlad rages in marshlands for days and nights nonstop, leaving countless thousands of bodies. Many centuries later, this area will be known as the Dead Marshes. After reaching Mordor, the Siege of Barad-dur begins
3440 S.A. - Anarion is killed by a projectile fired from Barad-dur
3441 S.A. - Sauron's forces burst from the Black Tower and very nearly break the Siege, pressing all the way to the slopes of Mount Doom. Sauron personally faces down Gil-galad, Elendil, Elrond, Círdan and Isildur. Gil-galad and Elendil are slain, but Isildur uses the broken blade of his father to cut the One Ring from Sauron's hand, dispersing his physical being and sending his armies into disarray. The Alliance defeats the dark army and razes Barad-dur to the ground, though unable to destroy its foundations owing to it being constructed with the power of the One Ring. Isildur refuses Elrond and Cirdan's urging to throw the Ring into the fires of Mount Doom, claiming it as a trophy won by the sacrifices of his father and brother

my god, none of that was in any movie! you're making it up!

kidding! i just wanted to give a taste of what i get sometimes...
--------------------------------------------------
but yes, exactly. those gaps give all kinds of space for tptb dark machinations

which is ok if its fits the tale of the Fall of Numenor. my concern is if they go too far afield like with the female Elf/dwarve shipping deal in Hobbit.

hopefully Bezos gets some time to give this some oversight attn as I have read he is giving to EXPANSE


and can we please only have CGI where it makes sense to use it!

[magi877]

the 'media' are still trying to find some way of understanding what this show will be. all they have to do is go to amazon's lotronprime twitter feed!

this could be bad for the show's start as many ppl may be burnt out on the lotr's and hobbit films, though, a minority may think there is more 3rd age stuff to tell (there could be but it would be boring)

i think it is a relative few of us who know anything about the 2nd age, numenor and the other tales of the silmarillion/lotr's appendices

i mean come on news lady, it only takes a little bit of effort----

http://www.ladbible.com/entertainmen...riter-20190522

[DigiFluid]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I think there are even opportunities in the Third Age for good storytelling. In Arnor in the north, they could approach the fracturing of it into three kingdoms, or the internecine war between the three when the Witch-King of Angmar establishes his neighbouring kingdom. Or down south in Gondor, you could address the Great Plague, the establishment of Rohan, or the end of the line of Kings and the rise of the Stewards. Heck, you could even come close to the films and have something set in the 50odd year gap between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

By all accounts they aren't doing this so it's kind of a moot point, I'm just saying there are creative opportunities.

[magi877]

I would love a road trip style show of Gimli and Legolas touring Middle Earth together, really liked their story in the films of gaining respect for eachother!

Shame John Rhys-Davies cant stand the make up due to allergic reactions, the main reason he didnt appear in The Hobbit despite being invited.

there is enough story in the appendix of lotr's for a short movie with this story

Legolas brought elves from his father's kingdom and lothlorien to Ithilien (east gondor ruled by Faramir) and Gimli brought dwarves to the Glittering caves (nearby Helms Deep) and established a dwarve city there. A city said to rival that of the old dwarve cities of Beleriand

then they sailed off to the west

[magi877]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I think there are even opportunities in the Third Age for good storytelling. In Arnor in the north, they could approach the fracturing of it into three kingdoms, or the internecine war between the three when the Witch-King of Angmar establishes his neighbouring kingdom. Or down south in Gondor, you could address the Great Plague, the establishment of Rohan, or the end of the line of Kings and the rise of the Stewards. Heck, you could even come close to the films and have something set in the 50odd year gap between The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings.

By all accounts they aren't doing this so it's kind of a moot point, I'm just saying there are creative opportunities.

yes, i agree that could be made into a good film or even a series

i have often thought what middle earth could be like going into its future--

it would still be mainly 'middle age to renaissance' time period/settings (from our reality) but with some evolution

the building of the 'new order' as it were with men in dominance and with some smaller communities of hobbits (technically men per the Tales of ME books), dwarves and even elves (mainly the woodland type) on mankind's fringes

and orcs as well

we know not all orcs were killed at the end of lotr's, it would have been an impossible task to seek out every cavern and cave system throughout all of middle earth (the east as well) and the manpower being diminished after the wear of the ring would have given the orcs breathing room to reproduce and fortify

but the thing is orcs-per tolkien's notes-were not inherently evil, they were made evil. being abominations of men and elves, their offspring post 'the dark lord' and his influence, would be interesting as well

as either elves or men, the children would be born as an elves or a man, to make the child an orc in appearance, because one could look like a man or elves and still be an orc on behavior, it would need to be tortured and mutilated.

would orc parents continue to do this without the evil influence?

orcs -, would they then begin a settled life specializing in skills they were good at and selling their service and goods to men (mining, smithying, machine building)

of course Tolkien never wrote about this and i dont think the Tolkien estate would allow any thing like it as they want to control the source material

but it would be interesting, for me at least

[magi877]

also from the Silmarillion and the newer more lengthy editions, Children of Hurin and Beren and Luthien's stories could each support a few movies on their own

the versions of these stories in the Silmarillion are abbreviated, the new releases are in full with the finished product being written by Christopher Tolkien

of course one tale is a origin of why only some men were gifted Numenor (Children of Hurin) and the other story being the the origin story of Elrond and Elros

[magi877]

they could really 'disney' the whole thing out (ala star wars)

the amazon series, then movies

they could make a movie on the siege of angband and another on the siege of gondolin

elves, men, orcs, balrogs, dragons (the old big ones not the little baby ones like Smaug) could be made into a huge spectacle if they wanted to make it

all possible with plenty of cash and good cgi

i am seeing the scenes for the battle of sudden flame now