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Why Travelers don’t create O’Neill cylinder?

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    Why Travelers don’t create O’Neill cylinder?

    Few days ago I was reading about O’Neill cylinder and yesterday I watch one of SGA episodes (Travelers to be exact). Watching it I asked myself why Travelers didn’t create few for themselves. After all they can install shields and hyperdrive on those basically creating gigantic spaceship that would be able to defend himself against Wraiths or better just escape them.

    As we see in SGA Travelers are in daring need for new spaceships or colony and standard sized O’Neill cylinder could house around 250mln people in very good condition (like house for every family on internal walls like in original Project) but as they have access to artificial gravity already they could build it like gigantic spaceship (or use materials to build fleet of smaller).

    Before you say that they don’t have resources to build it keep in mind that you just need one medium sized asteroid to build one and I don’t believe Wraith can keep eyes on every system in Pegasus and even if they can Travelers could tow one asteroid via hyperspace to void between systems (like in SG-1 episode Fail Safe) and work on their colony there.

    What do you think about my idea?

    #2
    Originally posted by Architect96 View Post
    Before you say that they don’t have resources to build it keep in mind that you just need one medium sized asteroid to build one
    Well, no, you also need a lot of technical resources to convert an asteroid's materials into a space station. That means things like specialized tools and machinery. Unfortunately, the travelers don't have the industry to build much of anything. They pretty much have whatever came with the ships they live on and whatever they can get in trade. If you watch "The Lost Tribe" (season 5, episode 11), it's clear that they just reuse and repair ship components until they fail because they can't construct replacements and, apparently, they don't have technologically advanced trading partners.

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      #3
      Yea i think it's fairly clear they have little to no infrastructure, making this hard to do.

      Comment


        #4
        True, I should thought about their industrial capacity.
        Today they lack ability to create space station or even new ship but they chose to abandon their home planet and live in space. Is some episode (SGA: Travelers) Larrin said that once they were able to build new ship as need so they had necessary equipment to mine for resources and create necessary equipment for new ships. If they didn’t mine for recourses they had to trade for them and to be honest I can’t think of any civilization in Pegasus to provide them with enough resources to build spaceship, even smaller than Daedalus.
        I can understand that they didn’t create one before escaping from their homeworld but after few decades or centuries in space (more probable decades) they should understand that new ships aren’t good enough for their growing population and invest some resources in something bigger. Maybe not big O’Neill cylinder first but something bigger than their ships (that are smaller than 304’s) and then with time and gathering more resources they would be able to build cylinders, it would be hard but reward would be much bigger.
        From technological point of view mining asteroid isn’t complicate as many asteroids are more like pail of rocks loosely keeping together by gravity. But what’s more important on asteroids metals aren’t in core like on planets so extracting them is much easier. With artificial gravity they could use the same technology as on planets to extract metals. For us main problem is that we don’t have means to send enough equipment from Earth cheap enough. We also don’t have any need for iron, aluminum, iridium or titanium from asteroids on Earth. Travelers, maybe only for first few decades/centuries had both means and need to create bigger ships and only reason I can think of why they didn’t it’s because writers didn’t want them to have something like this.

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          #5
          Only after posting my previous post I realized my answerer wasn’t complete. So here’s part two.
          Can Travelers even with their little infrastructure build one?
          In my opinion they can. It would require cooperation between captains and would be difficult but even now they can do this (in my opinion) and here’s is why:

          1. Can they tow asteroid to safe place?
          - They were able to tow Daedalus so probably they can. It could be far slower speed but that’s possible.

          2. Can they mine asteroid?
          - Yes. Even with normal jackhammers it’s possible and even if now they don’t have jackhammer they have engineers that maintain their ships made of mismatched components so they would be able to create so primitive compare to spaceship or energy gun tool. They probably would need some base of operation on that asteroid but they have shields and what better spaceships with shields so they could just park one of theirs spaceship next to mining site and cover it with force filed that would protect people from radiation, micrometers and could keep atmosphere inside.

          3. Can they create steel?
          - It’s possible. Iron is in M-type asteroids and carbon in C-type but they are also asteroids with both so they can get basic elements to create steel but now hard part begins. They have to melt them and create steel. How they do that? They need blast furnace to create good enough steel and building that could be a difficult but not impossible. Again their engineers probably would be able to create one using materials they can find in galaxy and build electric blast furnace. What could power that furnace? If need energy source that provides power for their ships (if they can travel in hyperspace, fire energy weapons and have shields they have enough power for blast furnace). Ship would be also used to create artificial gravity in area where furnace is so it could work like on normal planet. Where that blast furnace can be placed? On asteroid they are mining next to ship. After they get first batch of steel they could use it to create bigger furnace or other equipment. They could buy necessary equipment like presses or get them from destroyed worlds like Sateda or Hoff. Both planets were in industrial age so probably had tools like that and I don’t believe Wraiths would destroy them on purpose – during orbital bombardment yes but not on propose.

          4. Can they build O’Neill cylinder in space?
          - Again yes. Even we could build one if we had materials on the spot (shipping them from Earth is not viable option). What they need to build spaceship. They need to fabricate parts and then put them close to asteroid. They can use their ships to transport them from asteroid to construction site. Then would they need to do is to weld parts together. For race that lives on spaceship they should be able to weld stuff together in space. Creating cylinder that has 8km (5miles) in diameter and 32km (20miles) long would take many months, maybe even 2 or 3 years but it would be possible, hard but possible.

          That’s only my opinion.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Architect96 View Post
            Only after posting my previous post I realized my answerer wasn’t complete. So here’s part two.
            Can Travelers even with their little infrastructure build one?
            In my opinion they can. It would require cooperation between captains and would be difficult but even now they can do this (in my opinion) and here’s is why:
            I think the problem is that it's risky. it would require a lot of activity and effort, which they may not have access to, at least not while maintaining a level of safety.

            The one time we saw a traveller ship on the inside, it was breaking down constantly. They simply may not have enough available manpower to actually build (and defend!) an O'neill cylinder.

            Comment


              #7
              Yeah, not the only reason, but one of the reasons why advanced mechanics and tools are necessary is because of labor restrictions. If they’re using ultra primitive tools and medieval or early industrial style blast furnaces you’re talking about a lot of man power over a long period of time. Considering that the travelers probably have a population in the low thousands, how is that supposed to work?

              Keep in mind that you’re dealing with people, which means there are psychological considerations involved in large building projects. We were never shown what motivating factors were at play at getting people involved in crew and service jobs but aside from duty and personal fulfillment likely enticements might have involved increased access to space, food, and various items. The problem is, how do you go from there to getting enough people interested in long, tedious, painstaking mining and processing jobs?

              In Earth society, the people who take those kinds of jobs are the ones who have no choice; they could either take the worst jobs imaginable or die since they don’t pay well enough to motivate people who aren’t desperate. If you’re looking to add books to your reading list and are interested in this topic I would recommend both Grapes of Wrath and Christ in Concrete. They’re both from the Depression, are both fiction but based in reality, and both deal with hard luck families trying to survive by doing difficult, exploitative work. In the former, it’s fruit picking in California and in the latter it’s bricklaying in New York (as a teenager, the author learned to be a bricklayer like his deceased father to support his immigrant family)

              So when you say they could do this even under the most primitive of conditions, it’s not that simple. This involves a societal overhaul where people are either denied basic sustenance unless they do the work you want them to (which is a great way to elicit rebellion considering securing food is not a natural problem for the travelers as far as we know) or they enslave outsiders to do work for them.

              Albany, New York has a population of just under 100,000 people. Imagine you took them, put them on derelict military ships, and told them to build a skyscraper on an uninhabited island using just materials that they could secure and process themselves. How well do you think that would turn out? There’s a lot of aspects they wouldn’t be able to make like break-proof glass, working elevators, ceiling tiles, a functioning water/cooling/heating system, etc. But let’s say they make it mostly out of steel. There’s a problem with making the steel beams that I’ll get into later, but let’s pretend that it was possible. It’s still a massive, labor and time intensive project for such a small number of people who are unlikely to want to do the work.

              The reason why modern humans are impressed by ancient building projects like the pyramids is because there’s no way we’d be able to get anything like them done today without advanced technology. The motivation used to get peasants to devote time to relocating giant slabs over a period of decades is nonexistent today as there are simply far better jobs available.

              Another motivating factor to consider is that of the ruling class. Why would the traveler leaders agree to devoting time, effort, and resources to a difficult project that would take generations to complete (even if possible)? First, let’s consider what is actually involved here.

              You say that all they have to do is be able to make steel, even at the most primitive level possible. In the case of the steel used in my skyscraper example, keep in mind that we’re talking about rolled steel, which means you first need the infrastructure necessary to create an advanced rolling mill, among other things. All of the machine components in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTdnAzzDrxY) requires other machinery to construct. Hence, the importance of infrastructure in building a deceptively large volume of the items we use today. A metal beam is just not shaped steel, it’s a complex piece of technology with a design that differs based on its use (see Wikipedia for a quick overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-beam#Design).

              The same is true for constructing both a hull and the various floors/walls of a space station using steel. Granted, it's possible Pegasus Galaxy societies have mastered steel bar development at a level capable of building a skyscraper, but even more is involved in space station construction. For example, you also neglected to factor in radiation shielding. Steel, lead, etc. is not sufficient to block cosmic radiation, which is a persistent problem that we are trying to deal with right now in preparation for an expedition to Mars. Since no mention has been made of Stargate ships emitting something that does much what Earth’s magnetic field does, I assume the hulls of their ships are made of materials that have solved this problem. Doing that without infrastructure is not happening. Also, remember that shields cannot be maintained at all times so, yes, radiation shielded hulls are still necessary.

              Further, you have the issue of computers, wiring, shields, power sources, life systems, engines, etc. They can dismantle some number of their ships for parts, but what’s the overall gain involved in doing that? It weakens their defensive capabilities (originally, you said a space station would give them added protection) and it doesn’t extend their lifespan in space. Whatever they take from ships and put into a space station is old and will ultimately fail just as it would have in a space ship. If the station is kept out of combat it might last a little longer, but because a higher volume of components are needed for the space station to run, it also means they would frequently have to dismantle more and more ships to keep it going. Is this really a worthwhile trade off?

              Again, assuming it was possible, like you think, you’re still talking about something that would take generations to build, reduce the size of their fleet, concentrate their population under the banner of a single target, and not extend their time in space by that much, if at all. The only benefit is that it would allow them to grow their population but consider the alternatives: maintaining their fleet and controlling their population or finding an out of the way planet to colonize and hoping the Wraith don’t find it. Both of those options are easier sells and involve equal or lesser risk to their overall safety.
              Last edited by Xaeden; 16 March 2024, 08:24 AM.

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                #8
                Where would we get all the carbon to make the carbon nanotubes? Seems more practical to colonize another planet than to dismantle one for resources to create a giant space faring tube.

                Comment


                  #9
                  well the obvious choice is 3 part, first they need to create a ship, why not start by trying to raid a wraith frigate by watching carefully and putting together where one is, use your technology carefully with precise attacks to disable communications and engines, then perform a ground assault with heavy artillery or whatever is available to provide enough of a stunning effect for a secondary team to invade the ship and quickly subdue, and well... probably cut up and use the wraith for food .... and then you have the question what effects wraith as a food source has, then harvest everything from the ship and destroy all communication signatures on it you can find or get a hint to, after stripping it you tow it off or strip it completely clean, leave no trace behind, and rebuild it or use it to build a construction ship which will perform basic smellting and mining useing a mostly automated system, you build tools and repair equipment from it, then move on over time to other abilities with it.

                  option two, gateless world, put a secured gate you can lock from opening there, you then place that in a ocean like underwater area, open it up at preset times for communications and equipment shipping, and tow everything out of hte water, that way it looks natural and less fishy if wraith stop by....

                  use this secluded world to build a hidden city world carefully and use it for constructing new warships quietly

                  option three... alliance with either replicaters or a rogue alien like the asgard, but you cant find them most the time muchless know they exist unless your already super powerful and knowledlgable.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by AleksisMi View Post
                    well the obvious choice is 3 part, first they need to create a ship, why not start by trying to raid a wraith frigate by watching carefully and putting together where one is, use your technology carefully with precise attacks to disable communications and engines, then perform a ground assault with heavy artillery or whatever is available to provide enough of a stunning effect for a secondary team to invade the ship and quickly subdue, and well... probably cut up and use the wraith for food .... and then you have the question what effects wraith as a food source has, then harvest everything from the ship and destroy all communication signatures on it you can find or get a hint to, after stripping it you tow it off or strip it completely clean, leave no trace behind, and rebuild it or use it to build a construction ship which will perform basic smellting and mining useing a mostly automated system, you build tools and repair equipment from it, then move on over time to other abilities with it.
                    How do you strip and rebuild an organic ship?

                    Capturing a Wraith ship and developing a means to interface would be nice, but trying to invade a single ship is rather difficult; it takes too long, there are too many Wraith aboard, and there's the possibility that the Wraith will blow themselves up before letting you take the ship (see the drones and their kamikaze tactics when their darts have no ship left to return to). If they go in with the purpose of shutting off their jamming technology and they have Atlantis around with their Asgard beams to help them out, that's a different story, but even so it's not the best use of resources.

                    What the Travelers really should want to do is work with Atlantis to find a way to grow their own Wraith ships. It very easily could come back to bite Atlantis later when the Pegasus version of the Lucian Alliance pops up, but it's a win-win for both parties as it concerns the Wraith problem as humans having the ability to grow Wraith ships is a game changer that could win them the war. The Travelers, and whomever else this technology is given to, could grow a ship anywhere there is enough to power to feed it. No years spent trying to build up their infrastructure, no static shipyards that can be targeted, etc. Overnight, humans would have the ability to match the Wraith's production capabilities and, overtime, this would allow their population to grow while the Wraith population stagnates as humans living on ships are harder for the Wraith to get to.

                    So instead of devoting resources to trying to take a single ship and hoping they don't pull an Earth and get into a situation where it's lost an episode or two after its recovered, what they should be doing is hitting research outposts and trying to get their hands on the secrets of ship growing.

                    option three... alliance with either replicaters or a rogue alien like the asgard, but you cant find them most the time muchless know they exist unless your already super powerful and knowledlgable.
                    One of the reasons Atlantis' cancellation was so disappointing to me is because it looked like the writers were laying the seeds for a military alliance that would go up against the Wraith. Earth, the Travelers, those secret advanced worlds that were inclined to come out of hiding with the Wraith in chaos due to their civil war and, with some convincing, the rogue Asgard. Throw in the Tria and the Wraith cruiser after Earth fixed them and whatever else might've popped up in season 6 and Atlantis could have had a thrilling final season.

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