Was the SGC right to overthrow the Goa'uld?

[Bhousden]

I'd say one issue is that after the Asgard treaty was in place, the SGC was assisting and supplying two open rebellions against them and offing System Lords left and right. That's why they turned to Anubis for help and that's why all the Goa'uld attacks on Earth after the treaty were attempted.

Anubis was going to be threat to not only Earth but ALL the goa'uld, especially the system lords, since they banished him in the first place. Ba'al supposedly "killed" Anubis after he was banished at which point he sought out Kheb and tricked Oma into ascending him. He then used Ancient knowledge to gather tech that not only rivaled goa'uld tech but Asgard tech as well. Once he knew that he could destroy an Asgard ship he made his play on Earth and the rest of the goa'uld. If it wasn't for the repository of knowledge on the Ancients O'Neill had downloaded into brain the second time and finding the outpost in Antarctica and destroying Anubis's fleet that we survived.

[StargateMillennium]

Anubis was going to be threat to not only Earth but ALL the goa'uld, especially the system lords, since they banished him in the first place. Ba'al supposedly "killed" Anubis after he was banished at which point he sought out Kheb and tricked Oma into ascending him. He then used Ancient knowledge to gather tech that not only rivaled goa'uld tech but Asgard tech as well. Once he knew that he could destroy an Asgard ship he made his play on Earth and the rest of the goa'uld. If it wasn't for the repository of knowledge on the Ancients O'Neill had downloaded into brain the second time and finding the outpost in Antarctica and destroying Anubis's fleet that we survived.

Hindsight bias. He's also some the Tau'ri didn't know about until several years into their meddling.

[Bhousden]

Hindsight bias. He's also some the Tau'ri didn't know about until several years into their meddling.

It matters not whether Earth knew of the existence of Anubis or not. The fact remains that killing Ra set off a chain reaction that would've led to a full scale invasion of Earth by the goa'uld. When Apophis went to Abydos and saw the natives with non-ancient Egyptian weapons then came to Earth and saw our soldiers with the same weapons he would've deduced we were the ones that killed Ra. This cannot be changed, unless you used the stargate to timewarp through a solar flare, which is impossible to predict, by the way, and stopped O'Neill from going to Abydos the first time we would've eventually been wiped and/or enslave once again. So hindsight or not, once we knew what enemies were out there we were obligated to gather intelligence and/or tech/weapons to defend this planet. Even Weir's argument that manifest destiny couldn't extend throughout the galaxy, but we weren't trying to colonize other world's except maybe research stations to be able keep plagues and/or other dangers from getting back to Earth. At any rate, we HAD to defeat the goa'uld at all costs.

[Shiner833]

I'd say one issue is that after the Asgard treaty was in place, the SGC was assisting and supplying two open rebellions against them and offing System Lords left and right. That's why they turned to Anubis for help and that's why all the Goa'uld attacks on Earth after the treaty were attempted.

Having an alliance with the Free Jaffa is the right of the Tau'ri. The fact that system lords repeatedly attacked those outposts were reason enough to continue the fight. Not to mention, the system lords were still enslaving and killing millions of people (humans, Jaffa and others) all over the galaxy. To put it plainly, if I came to your neighborhood and placed your friends, family and neighbors into slavery or worse and then you stopped me...would I have an argument to say "hey no fair you shouldn't be medlding!"

[ziakadi]

Carter's defense was that they enslave millions.
So it seems to me that she was fine with this because of this concept of them fighting absolute bad.

And yet, just how were they improving the lives of those millions of enslaved people? How much violence/crime happened? How many people starved because the food distributions was now in the hands of folks like the Lucien Alliance or just broken down completely?

The goa'uld were not nice, but neither are most human governments when you consider historical as well as current. What the bleep made the SGC think they whatever sprang up in the wake of the utter chaos they caused by knocking off system lords was going to be one iota better?

Now, on the show, of course they justify as Carter does because black/white, evil/good, fighting the big bad and all those fun entertainment themes. But take what they treated so blithely and look seriously at what would be the Real Universe consequences and it's not pretty at all.

So, after the Asgard Treaty made the Goa'uld not allowed to attack Earth, were they right in still trying to fight them? After all, on Earth countries that take it upon themselves to attack countries led by evil people and dictators are kinda frowned upon.

When you go back and look carefully at the plot lines, there is little evidence that anyone in the early seasons other than Apophis was paying the tau'ri any attention whatsoever. A case could be argued that if they'd avoided pissing off any other goa'uld, the rest would have continued to ignore them. (I have a fanfic plot bunny about that asgard treaty where they end up letting earth keep their stargate if and only if their gate program has a goa'uld watcher to keep them from going to goa'uld worlds or acting against the goa'uld, on the principle that there is a heck of a lot of the galaxy the tau'ri can explore that isn't goa'uld controlled and really, all the system lords want is for the tau'ri to stay the heck out of their Serious Business of strutting around and having Bad Fashion Shows.)

Was it right for the SGC to not make a serious effort to avoid pissing off the goa'uld? Considering the tech different at that time... realistically, a single alkesh and a few fly-by pot shots at earth's major cities was well within the capacity of even the most minor system lord, and the death toll on earth would be horrific. If it had happened and the rest of the world learned that it was the result of a handful of self-righteous, prejudiced asses who couldn't refrain from snake-baiting, they would be rightly condemned.

But the show didn't go there, so eh. That's not how it played out. It's interesting yeah, but does lead to a lot of WTF moments when thinking about what Our Heros do and get away with. But in the end, the show says they made the right choices and it worked out for the best - in that version of reality.

[Craziwolf]

Very in depth idea to discuss here but ill keep it simple. Knowing that all of the humans in the galaxy originated on earth and knowing that the Goa'uld were enslaving millions of people, would it not be the right thing to do to help the enslaved people as they are our own? I believe the term is "no one gets left behind" so overthrowing the Goa'uld seems like it would be the only decision to make?

[StargateMillennium]

Very in depth idea to discuss here but ill keep it simple. Knowing that all of the humans in the galaxy originated on earth and knowing that the Goa'uld were enslaving millions of people, would it not be the right thing to do to help the enslaved people as they are our own? I believe the term is "no one gets left behind" so overthrowing the Goa'uld seems like it would be the only decision to make?

That certainly is the argument in favor of it. But what would be your answer if I were to ask, why haven't we tried the same on Earth? There are plenty of bad governments that might as well be enslaving their own people. Do you think we should aim to overthrow them as much as we supported the protagonists to overthrow the Goa'uld? And if so, why is it so frowned upon?

[thekillman]

That certainly is the argument in favor of it. But what would be your answer if I were to ask, why haven't we tried the same on Earth? There are plenty of bad governments that might as well be enslaving their own people. Do you think we should aim to overthrow them as much as we supported the protagonists to overthrow the Goa'uld? And if so, why is it so frowned upon?

The problem, as the US found out in Iraq, isn't overthrowing governments, that's easy.

The problem is returning the country to stability after that, especially by making sure that the right people come into control. We don't overthrow North Korea because it would be a humongous mess. Brainwashed and suppressed people, barely any economy, dictatorial military. To fix all that, you'd need decades of investments, and it almost certainly wouldn't be worth the price.

[StargateMillennium]

The problem, as the US found out in Iraq, isn't overthrowing governments, that's easy.

The problem is returning the country to stability after that, especially by making sure that the right people come into control. We don't overthrow North Korea because it would be a humongous mess. Brainwashed and suppressed people, barely any economy, dictatorial military. To fix all that, you'd need decades of investments, and it almost certainly wouldn't be worth the price.

Would I be correct in assuming that you would think going about overthrowing Goa'uld would be a bad idea under normal circumstances?

[thekillman]

Would I be correct in assuming that you would think going about overthrowing Goa'uld would be a bad idea under normal circumstances?

Well the Tok'ra had a point didn't they? Prior to the SGC intervention, there was basically no war. The System Lords ensured that power was balanced out and no goa'uld had control over the other. Once Ra died the system was imbalanced and it led to large and deadly wars. Sure we couldn't have foreseen it with Ra, but we kept meddling despite knowing better. Especially regarding Apophis.

Not to mention that all the way to their defeat at the hands of the Replicators, the Goa'uld were only getting strong as their fragmented power was consolidated more and more in the hands of fewer and fewer. Anubis had pretty much become the Goa'uld Emperor, with most of the galaxy in his control.

So yea, the Tok'ra were right: we were screwing up the system and we weren't exactly helping. Sure in hindsight it kind of worked out, though both Replicators and Ori must've decimated the Goa'uld, Jaffa and human slave ranks. Without the Replicators though, Anubis (or Ba'al) would've won in the end.