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Thread: IF Barry is Savitar:

  1. #1
    Certified Magician/Witch Peterking72's Avatar
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    Default IF Barry is Savitar:

    Apparently there are a lot of people who think that Savitar (the big bad of season 3) is none other than future Barry.
    There are a lot of very good and convincing evidence, reasoning that supports this theory and I believe many of us here heard at least one of them.

    However there is a reason why i put an IF in front of my thread opener headline. I am, as always very skeptical about these theories given how most of the fans always gets fooled by the showrunners. We have been fooled in season 1, (well not me, but others) and we were fooled in season 2 (me included).

    So IF Barry is Savitar I think that there are several possibilities to how he became or (in my opinion) which version of Barry become Savitar.

    Look at some tidbits about the guy from the show:

    Earth#3 Jay Garrick said that before Savitar graces a universe with his presence he always sends a forerunner. That was Alchemy/Julien. He (Savitar) wants to battle Flash because he feels that Barry threatens his existence.

    Barry did threaten his existence by creating Flashpoint. However in my opinion Flashpoint is also the reason why Savitar exists.

    Savitar said that Barry trapped him in the speedforce. Now we know that Barry does not kill his enemies (at least not directly), which is how he manages to walk that fine line between hero and villain.

    So I think when Barry "corrected" Flashpoint he "killed" the other him who lived in the parallel universe. The universe parallel to Flashpoint. So I think when the Flashpoint universe got terminated, the Barry who was living in that parallel universe (which is now the main universe) was killed. That's why Barry didn't remember certain events. The death of Cisco's brother for example.

    We also know that when a speedster dies he gets transported to the Speedforce, which is a kind of afterlife for speedsters.
    So if Barry is Savitar then that's how he got trapped in the speedforce.
    Savitar said that Barry took everything from him-->Flashpoint

    Savitar said he is the future. Which means that he wants to take Barry's place or he wants to ensure that Barry becomes him/Savitar.
    That's why he kills/wants to kill Iris. If Barry loses Iris he completely falls apart. Loses his final strand of sanity that kept him from turning to the dark side.

    In the episode 19 promo we can see "flashes" of just how that might began. How does Barry start to walk a darker path, becoming Savitar.

    There are other theories that claim that A) Savitar is Barry's time remnant from the Zoom fight
    B)Savitar is future Barry

    Look at why those theories are incorrect (in my opinion):

    A) If Savitar was a time remnant than there were time wraiths who would chased him/or Black Flash. Since Black Flash was chasing Reverse Flash, he is out, but that still leaves the wraiths.
    I saw zero wraiths-->Incorrect theory (unless the show runners are deliberately leaving them out to keep us guessing till the end)

    B)If Savitar is future Barry then what event would make Barry becoming him and how could Barry wrong himself so bad that he Becomes his own enemy. Furthermore if Savitar was future Barry then why would he kill Iris if he knows that it's the exact thing why he becomes what he is?: A miserable man without friends, family and love. If this theory is correct, then if I were him, then I would certainly not do the one thing that starts the process of me becoming forever miserable. Who in the right mind wants that.
    The other fickle thread of evidence that supports this is the fact that Savitar is insane. He went mad twice over during the time he was trapped in the speed force, so this theory apparently might last. I only say it's incorrect because I want it to be incorrect. Because if this theory is true then it's another cheapskate from the writers who supposed to write good stuff and not bad soap operas. If the science of the show is wonky at least get the writing O.K. Am I right? Of course I am!
    Hallowed are the Ori.

  2. #2
    Captain
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    I think Savitar is Earth 3's Jay Garrick who's been trapped in the speed force since Barry put him there to free Wally, a sort of causality paradox, it would also explain why Savitar choose this time period to come back too, and would explain why he said "you will trap me in here soon" right before Barry trapped Jay there.

    Just because this Jay volunteered to stay doesn't mean future Savitar remembers it that way, he may well have gone nuts over the years and warped his memories of the events to suit his insanity.

    I just think it being future Barry is too obvious, he'd have to be really insane to think going back in time to kill his future wife is a reasonable solution to whatever mess he was in at that point.

    I do think next weeks episode is going to give us an explanation for the future newspaper headline though.

  3. #3
    First Lieutenant Jeffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    Even if Jay had warped what happend in his mind the prison wasn't created "for" him. And it's been said a few times Barry made the prison for Savitar.
    Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together

  4. #4
    Certified Magician/Witch Peterking72's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    @Ian-S:

    There is just one thing wrong with your theory. As soon as they defeat Savitar or lock him up or whatever they do to stop him, they're going to free Jay from that speed force prison. It won't be easy, but I'm pretty sure they can pull it off. Cisco is very much in control of his powers these days. I'm more interested in how they going to handle Killer Frost.
    Somehow it's a good thing that Savitar is not attacking the team every day now, because handling that on the daily basis with Killer Frost on the loose would be a handful or impossible.
    KF did say in the promo for the next week ep. that Barry is going to be very surprised when he finds out who Savitar is.

    All we know that Savitar's speed force lightning is white-ish blue. Zoom's was blue from the dpeed drug, Velocity he used on himself. His speed remnant had gold lightning like Barry, even though that version already suffered from deterioriation due to what the Velocity drug was doing to his cells.
    Despite the fact that the show runners are clearly disregarding the comic books on the color of the lightning each speedster have. For example red lightning is unique for reverse flash. It is a symbol that he uses the negative speed force that HE created. Yet they used it for the Rival, Edward Clariss and recently for Black Flash, who was Zoom before the Wraiths transformed him into that monster. Now Black Flash I can accept with red lightning, barely, but I can. He is like a Grim Reaper for Speedsters and he needs evil tones and red is clearly doing the trick for him.

    Now back to Savitar's white blue. Clearly the color determines how fast a speedster is, at least on this show. So Savitar's mach 50, which I assume is his top speed, so he might be sometimes slower or he can't keep it up for an extended period of time. OR when he is injured that slows him down too. Like when Barry stabbed him with his own blade. He definitely can heal, but that takes time too. Also Barry was able to fight Savitar one on one, which means that Savitar's fighting speed is clearly slower than the speed he can run with. That is a key information on how they can save Iris. Someone just have to keep him busy fighting while another one escapes with Iris and hides her somewhere safe where Savitar won't find him.
    Which if Barry is Savitar will be a really though thing. So maybe that's why Barry (the show runners) wants Kid Flash to save Iris rather than Barry himself. So that might be a plot leak of sorts toward the audience of the show. If that so it's very very subtle and I would like it a lot. It would mean that Barry would unknowingly help his current self and obstruct his future self at the same time. That would be amazing to see, but I think the show runners will choose a third path as they are not aware of what I just said at all. Plus they always do something entirely different from what would be expected. They did it in Season 1 and season 2, so why would season 3 differ from that when the show runners are the same.

    What is the third route I can't imagine. But it might be the first route, meaning that all our theories are the second and they just want us to think they're taking a third route while in fact they're going with their original idea, which is the first route. It's complicated.
    Unless they're changing their ending based on what the viewers (us) assume. That wouldn't be too far fetched either, but could potentially be a bad decision too. Meaning they can write themselves into a corner, etc.

    This brings us back to why your theory (in my opinion) is incorrect. Note also that it is only IF Barry is Savitar, meaning that your theory might be correct if Barry is not Savitar.
    If Jay would be Savitar that would mean that the show writers are changing the ending based on the intel they got back from viewers (or they just want to think they're changing) and that would be a fourth route, leading right into a corner which I was talking of.
    Anyway the entire mess of timelines and speed force shenanigans created a web of such complexity that even Cisco's Vibe can't figure out in a millennium.
    There is talks that Reverse Flash is coming back too, somehow. There is also talks about Clifford DeVoe being next season's big bad. Abra Kadabra dropped his name while talking with Barry.
    So those senanigans and them revealing the big bad might be just a rope they can pull themselves back to the right path before too late. There is only 3 episodes after next weeks episode, so they better do a quick job clearing up this mess they created for camouflaging their true intentions.

    I'm just hoping that this seasons end will be more exciting than the end of the previous two. Especially the second season end. Because that was the lamest end possible for the kind of hype after the midseason. So id I were them I would hide Savitar's identity until the very end. Because I suspect there might be a name reveal in next weeks episode.

    Anyway I'm looking forward to more ideas and any proof that could further proove or disprove my theory.
    Hallowed are the Ori.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    The thing with the prison being created for Savitar is that they give the impression Barry creates it in the future, which if that is the case, how are they able to access it now?

    None of it makes sense if you think of it in a linear timeline fashon, of course we've been told time doesn't exist in the speedforce, or not as we know it anyway, but then that doesn't make any sense either.

    I agree Savitar is most likely Barry, but I hope it's someone different just to put a different spin on things, also some of the spoilers I've seen from the funeral tend to indicate I'm wrong too, but I did hear they got everybody on set to stop people trying working it out like they did with Arrow last year.

    Does make you wonder if they have indeed followed the trend set by Arrow and had no idea who Savitar was when they first introduced him (like they had no idea who was in the coffin when they filmed the Arrow foreshadowing scene) and have only recently decided who it is.

    There is just one thing wrong with your theory. As soon as they defeat Savitar or lock him up or whatever they do to stop him, they're going to free Jay from that speed force prison. It won't be easy, but I'm pretty sure they can pull it off. Cisco is very much in control of his powers these days. I'm more interested in how they going to handle Killer Frost.
    My theory is based on them finding after they kill Savitar that they can't free Jay, therefore causing Jay to go insane and later become Savitar. I think "barry created the prison" is a red herring because hasn't Barry already been trapped in a similar prison before to witness his mothers death over and over as punishment for creating the time remenant? Saying "you created the prison for me" doesn't necessarily mean physically building it, could mean create as in trapped me here.
    Last edited by Ian-S; April 19th, 2017 at 01:10 PM.

  6. #6
    Certified Magician/Witch Peterking72's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    I went to IMDB and found this:

    S3, Ep20
    2 May 2017 I Know Who You Are
    Team Flash meets a scientist who may be the key to stopping Savitar, but is forced into a battle with Killer Frost.

    I wonder who that scientist is.

    BTW I started to rewatch The Flash from the end until the next EP comes out. Caitlin's line on superpowers don't make you evil made me ROFLMAO. I wonder if they ever going to fully explain that why Caitlin's KF identity is inherently evil. They can't keep forever hanging on to that bullcrap of just because it is. Why did Caitlin's superpowers manifested as a psycho personality in the first place? The only other split personality meta human was Magenta but she was able to overcome her evil personality and shut her away for good.
    First I thought this split was because of Flash point but Wally/Kid Flash turned out O.K. after the transformation. Maybe the answer is in the fact that they intentionally didn't show Caitlin's transformation and maybe they're going to give us flashback's like on arrow. I do feel that this Killer frost arc is going to continue in season 4 and we will be left with a Killer Frost cliffhanger at the end of Season 3.

    I just had an insane idea. What if Savitar is Sara Diggle? John Diggle's daughter that Barry erased with Flash point? Going on a revenge against Barry's friends and family for getting erased. That would be a true unimaginable plot twist...
    Hallowed are the Ori.

  7. #7
    First Lieutenant Jeffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    Although it's never been said I believe Caitlin becomes killer frost because her heart freezes when she uses her powers.
    Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together

  8. #8
    The Beast garhkal's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peterking72 View Post
    I wonder if they ever going to fully explain that why Caitlin's KF identity is inherently evil. They can't keep forever hanging on to that bullcrap of just because it is. Why did Caitlin's superpowers manifested as a psycho personality in the first place? The only other split personality meta human was Magenta but she was able to overcome her evil personality and shut her away for good.
    First I thought this split was because of Flash point but Wally/Kid Flash turned out O.K. after the transformation. Maybe the answer is in the fact that they intentionally didn't show Caitlin's transformation and maybe they're going to give us flashback's like on arrow. I do feel that this Killer frost arc is going to continue in season 4 and we will be left with a Killer Frost cliffhanger at the end of Season 3.
    I've always seen it as her powers are what created/control killer frost, and to use / push them she has to tap into her "Dark side". So that's why KF is bad/evil..

    Quote Originally Posted by Peterking72 View Post
    I just had an insane idea. What if Savitar is Sara Diggle? John Diggle's daughter that Barry erased with Flash point? Going on a revenge against Barry's friends and family for getting erased. That would be a true unimaginable plot twist...
    Now that's an evil thought. BUT why would sara Diggle sound like a dude?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    Well Zoom didn't sound anything like he looked lol

    Btw the scientist [
    Spoiler:
    is from the future

  10. #10
    Certified Magician/Witch Peterking72's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    So it seems I was right about Savitar being Barry, but I was wrong about my parallel world Barry theory. This Barry is either just a future Barry that turned to a villain or a time remnant who refused to die for some "greater good" and went running amok.
    Hallowed are the Ori.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    Yup, lets throw all logic out the window for the story, they better explain this in a decent way because at the moment it doesn't make sense. Barry has only created one remnant and we all saw that turn to dust, so unless it's one he hasn't created yet or a rouge one from Flashpoint etc etc.

  12. #12
    The Beast garhkal's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peterking72 View Post
    So it seems I was right about Savitar being Barry, but I was wrong about my parallel world Barry theory. This Barry is either just a future Barry that turned to a villain or a time remnant who refused to die for some "greater good" and went running amok.
    Well, we do know from S1 in the time vault, that "future" barry "DIsappears mysterously". So maybe that was the him from the future...

  13. #13
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    Most likely, the newpaper article is dated a few weeks after present Barrys visit in ep19.

  14. #14
    Certified Magician/Witch Peterking72's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    I don't know. I always thought that newspaper article: Flash vanishes in crisis was just a reference to an old story line from the cartoons: Crisis on infinite Earths (1985-86). Damn I was born in '86. Good thing the crisis resolved by then. XD

    Maybe the writers are trying to tie in that story somehow so we won't feel "left out"?
    IDK, but they better make a decent ending to this season, because the previous one with Zoom was pretty meh...
    Hallowed are the Ori.

  15. #15
    First Lieutenant Starsaber's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-S View Post
    Yup, lets throw all logic out the window for the story, they better explain this in a decent way because at the moment it doesn't make sense. Barry has only created one remnant and we all saw that turn to dust, so unless it's one he hasn't created yet or a rouge one from Flashpoint etc etc.
    2024 Barry said that he created several time remnants to try to beat Savitar. He said that Savitar killed them all, but it's possible that Savitar let the one that became him live in some kind of predestination paradox.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    Spoiler:
    Yes, that is exactly how they explained it in the next episode lol

  17. #17
    Certified Magician/Witch Peterking72's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    They also said that this "paradox" is a closed loop. So it can only be broken by someone from the outside. Since that would be very problematic to do I think they will just explain it away by some speed force shenanigans as usual.
    This loop is somehow the making of Reverse Flash also, since him killing Barry's mom added to Barry's inside darkness which turned his remnant into Savitar. That would sort of explain how the "unkilling" and then "rekilling" of Barry's mom by RF created a time quake strong enough to "free" Savitar. RF also told Barry that there would be great consequences that he would have to find out for himself. RF's Future knowledge seems to include alternate realities as well.

    By the way they already started the speed force shenanigans by Savitar saying that the more Barry alters the timeline the less he is connected to it.
    Remember that I said in the opening that the loop can only be broken from the outside... So essentially Barry has to completely f* up the timeline, so he will be completely disconnected and can break the loop.
    Borrowing from Jack O'neill: The loop can be broken!
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  18. #18
    Major Infinite-Possibilities's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    It makes no sense. Barry never created time remnants in this timeline, so Savitar should never have been created.
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    He created one to defeat Zoom.

    But Savitar himself says Barry hasn't created him yet, he only does that to defeat Savitar in the future in order to try and avenge Iris's death, that's when Savitar let's the copy live so he can be rejected by the team and go on to become Savitar, think of it like River Song in Doctor Who, we saw the Doctor's timeline in a linear format, while River Song's was out of sequence from our perspective. If we were watching from Savitar's perspective, then the story would start at his creation, then rejection, then creating the suit, then the past to create the myth, etc. etc.

    But I agree, it doesn't make sense, I think at this stage we just dispell with logic and enjoy the story, even the creation of a time remnant defies the already established canon of time travel in the series, so they're just making it up as they go along tbh.

  20. #20
    Major Infinite-Possibilities's Avatar
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    Default Re: IF Barry is Savitar:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian-S View Post
    He created one to defeat Zoom.

    But Savitar himself says Barry hasn't created him yet, he only does that to defeat Savitar in the future in order to try and avenge Iris's death, that's when Savitar let's the copy live so he can be rejected by the team and go on to become Savitar, think of it like River Song in Doctor Who, we saw the Doctor's timeline in a linear format, while River Song's was out of sequence from our perspective. If we were watching from Savitar's perspective, then the story would start at his creation, then rejection, then creating the suit, then the past to create the myth, etc. etc.

    But I agree, it doesn't make sense, I think at this stage we just dispell with logic and enjoy the story, even the creation of a time remnant defies the already established canon of time travel in the series, so they're just making it up as they go along tbh.
    The one he created to defeat Zoom is dead. Savitar said Barry created time remnants in order to save Iris. So now Savitar was originally created in a future that no longer exists.
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

    *You got the touch! You got the poweeeeer!*

    "Arise, Woolseyus Prime."

    "Elizabeth..."

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