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  1. #1
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    Post No Regrets (418)

    Visit the Episode GuideAGENTS OF S.H.I.E.L.D. - SEASON FOUR
    NO REGRETS
    EPISODE NUMBER - 418
    When the Patriot goes in search of a Hydra prisoner, Agent May agrees to become a living weapon to stop S.H.I.E.L.D.'s leader. Jemma tries to motivate S.H.I.E.L.D. by sharing the truth about their reality.

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    Last edited by GateWorld; May 29th, 2017 at 08:58 PM.

  2. #2
    Major General garhkal's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    So Aida/Queen Hidra can leave the framework anytime she wants.
    May fighting Mace juiced up was an awesome fight.. BUT i was surprised mace was just a puncher. You would have thought he "by now" would have learned some hand to hand.
    AND Wow, mace went out a hero till the end. And i actually was shocked that may seems to be coming around. And i liked her nod towards Mace.
    GREAT to see Trip back. And i loved Phil fighting in the place.

    And fitz's turning secret. HIS DAD works there. I just can't see though, WHY that would make him so damn heartless..
    Also, at the end when may dropped the Teragen crystal to change sky, WHY DIDN'T may die?? Or are these crystals special in that they don't do anything to non humans?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    So Aida/Queen Hidra can leave the framework anytime she wants.
    May fighting Mace juiced up was an awesome fight.. BUT i was surprised mace was just a puncher. You would have thought he "by now" would have learned some hand to hand.
    AND Wow, mace went out a hero till the end. And i actually was shocked that may seems to be coming around. And i liked her nod towards Mace.
    GREAT to see Trip back. And i loved Phil fighting in the place.

    And fitz's turning secret. HIS DAD works there. I just can't see though, WHY that would make him so damn heartless..
    Also, at the end when may dropped the Teragen crystal to change sky, WHY DIDN'T may die?? Or are these crystals special in that they don't do anything to non humans?
    Remember in the real world that there are crystals that cause terragenesis to potential inhumans without killing non inhumans. Like with the Russian and senator Nadeer. So yeah.....

  4. #4
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    And fitz's turning secret. HIS DAD works there. I just can't see though, WHY that would make him so damn heartless..
    Also, at the end when may dropped the Teragen crystal to change sky, WHY DIDN'T may die?? Or are these crystals special in that they don't do anything to non humans?
    From some of the stuff they established earlier in the season, his dad wasn't really involved in his life in the real world. From what we heard from him in this episode, he was pretty abusive. Fitz probably didn't know enough about that when his biggest regret was not having a relationship with him, so that would have changed how he was raised.

    Also, the only Terrigen crystals that killed humans were the synthetic ones made in Afterlife since they had fragments of the Diviner they got the crystal seeds from in them.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Damn, at least Mace went out a hero...

    Looks like Mays coming around and Daisys getting her powers back. Fitz will be the hardest to get back.

  6. #6
    Major Infinite-Possibilities's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    OK, a lot to unpack here. I'm getting the sense that the moral of this season is going to be that everyone needs their regrets and the horrible things that happened to them because without them they'd be completely different and possibly super evil.

    I don't think I really buy it. Personality is a very complicated subject, influenced by a great deal of factors and unique for everyone. The premise that Fitz would be a sadist and May would be a clueless imbecile if he was raised by his father and if she saved that inhuman girl is rather thin to me. Particularly if there was supposedly no other changes to the world. The other question is how do "the algorithms" decide that the girl May saved went on to kill others?

    I read an article just a week or two ago that suggested that might not have any real core personalities, we could just become potentially anything in the right situation. I could tell that the language was couched in things like "maybe" and "what if," because I'm pretty sure we don't yet have a fully conclusive understanding of the science in real life. If that is the fundamental idea of the story though, I'm almost beginning to wonder if this actually is the end of Fitz/Simmons, even if they do get him back to normal.

    I actually forgot Mace was one of the real agents in the Framework. I thought May was fighting a digital avatar of him. It makes the scene make more sense now. It's a shame, I actually really liked the Framework version of him.

    I also am actually rather enjoying Framework Ward. But ultimately the question of whether this is all real boils down to two scenarios. Are the characters in the Framework alive? Do they have feelings? Because based on our current understanding, they are not. They only act like they do. Which means that any "pain" they feel is no more real than robo-Fitz screaming as if he was being murdered to get Gemma to stop stabbing him. The only difference is they don't have anything that would make them break character.

    However, if they do have feelings then they are alive. Does Hope really love Mack? Is Ward genuinely distressed at the idea of not being real? If so, then they are alive and they are real. That however presents us with different issues. Does the Framework have the equivalent of 7 Billion synthetic brains all the equivalent of ADA's? Does that mean they killed the Framework version of Skye by replacing her with Daisy? It would maybe also mean that Mack arguably has a responsibility not to abandon his daughter by leaving the Framework.

    At the end of the day, though. This "Agents of Hydra" scenario very much feels like it's written specifically to be shocking and dramatic, rather than an attempt realistically extrapolate what would happen to the world and characters if a few things were changed.

    Especially since for the premise to be that Hydra conquered the world, then when creating the Framework, ADA would probably have had to look at several characters in the Marvel Universe and done this:



    Unless of course the implication is that Fitz was the key to the undoing of the Avengers and I'd believe that less than anything else in this episode.

    Then again, as time goes on I'm starting to get the sense the writers of the shows and movies don't always really try to connect them a whole lot.


    EDIT: Oh and it was funny to hear the cameo from Backshi for a moment there, did they get him back just to those few seconds of voice work and not appear or was that taken from earlier episodes.
    Last edited by Infinite-Possibilities; April 19th, 2017 at 11:44 AM.
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

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  7. #7
    Major General garhkal's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhousden View Post
    Remember in the real world that there are crystals that cause terragenesis to potential inhumans without killing non inhumans. Like with the Russian and senator Nadeer. So yeah.....
    I always thought it was the crystals raw self that did that..

    Quote Originally Posted by Starsaber View Post
    From some of the stuff they established earlier in the season, his dad wasn't really involved in his life in the real world. From what we heard from him in this episode, he was pretty abusive. Fitz probably didn't know enough about that when his biggest regret was not having a relationship with him, so that would have changed how he was raised.
    Yea. It did seem like dad kept Fitz on a leash, with reminding him occasionally about whipping, straps etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by Teddybrown View Post
    Damn, at least Mace went out a hero...
    And that death of Mace, was what seemed to finally bring may back to the "Light side"..
    I wonder, how his death in the framework (and thus the real world ala the matrix) will impact the team when they get back TO the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teddybrown View Post
    Looks like Mays coming around and Daisys getting her powers back. Fitz will be the hardest to get back.
    To be honest, i am not sure they can win Fitz back..

    However, if they do have feelings then they are alive. Does Hope really love Mack? Is Ward genuinely distressed at the idea of not being real? If so, then they are alive and they are real. That however presents us with different issues. Does the Framework have the equivalent of 7 Billion synthetic brains all the equivalent of ADA's? Does that mean they killed the Framework version of Skye by replacing her with Daisy? It would maybe also mean that Mack arguably has a responsibility not to abandon his daughter by leaving the Framework.
    As i said earlier in the other thread (EP 417), i am starting to think the Framework isnt just a digital realm, but is in essence an entire alternate universe.. BUT one where if you die there, you die here (for those jacked in that is)..
    And as for Mack and co. I am unsure if his responsibility to Hope will mean he declines coming back to the real world.

    As for ward. I wonder if that genuine distress, is a mark up of all the minds of gemma/phil/daisy etc, WISHING he had proper regrets about turning bad..

  8. #8
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    I personally don't think that Aida "jacks" into the Matrix, but rather is linked via a wireless interface to her FW avatar. That's the only way that I could see her "monitoring" both worlds.

  9. #9
    Major General garhkal's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    If she was monitoring both worlds, wouldn't she know what's going on in the real world courtesy of all her bots??

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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    It's possible Madam Hydra is just a program in the Framework that just pretends it's ADA, as well.
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

    *You got the touch! You got the poweeeeer!*

    "Arise, Woolseyus Prime."

    "Elizabeth..."

  11. #11
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    If she was monitoring both worlds, wouldn't she know what's going on in the real world courtesy of all her bots??
    Seems to me that she knows full well what's going on in the real world. Seeing as how the minute Mace gave his life saving a kid she "turns" him off in the real world. The timing seems to be a little too convenient to me.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhousden View Post
    Seems to me that she knows full well what's going on in the real world. Seeing as how the minute Mace gave his life saving a kid she "turns" him off in the real world. The timing seems to be a little too convenient to me.
    She was monitoring the vitals of all the people his flat lined so she shut his off.
    Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together

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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite-Possibilities View Post
    OK, a lot to unpack here. I'm getting the sense that the moral of this season is going to be that everyone needs their regrets and the horrible things that happened to them because without them they'd be completely different and possibly super evil.

    I don't think I really buy it. Personality is a very complicated subject, influenced by a great deal of factors and unique for everyone. The premise that Fitz would be a sadist and May would be a clueless imbecile if he was raised by his father and if she saved that inhuman girl is rather thin to me. Particularly if there was supposedly no other changes to the world. The other question is how do "the algorithms" decide that the girl May saved went on to kill others?
    I think that an event or a person could definitely change the course of someone's life. You hear about people who used to hang with a bad crowd as a kid or teen. And it took a shocking event (a fellow gang member dying) or a person (a teacher or family member) to get them to go on a different path. Radcliffe mentioned how one sentence could change a life. "I love you." What if Fitz's father told Fitz, "I love you" and then Fitz grew up wanting his father's approval, to be like his father.

    As for the Framework deciding that Katya would go on to kill others if she survived, I don't think that's much of a stretch based on her behavior in the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite-Possibilities View Post
    Unless of course the implication is that Fitz was the key to the undoing of the Avengers and I'd believe that less than anything else in this episode.
    Actually, I think the lack of Coulson in SHIELD is a pretty good reason for the undoing of the Avengers - certainly his pivotal role in The Avengers film, but also his contact with some of the Avengers in their previous films.

    Thanks to Starlover1990 for the banner

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    Major General garhkal's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite-Possibilities View Post
    It's possible Madam Hydra is just a program in the Framework that just pretends it's ADA, as well.
    That could be.


    BTW, was anyone else getting goose bumps seeing Trip again!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhousden View Post
    Seems to me that she knows full well what's going on in the real world. Seeing as how the minute Mace gave his life saving a kid she "turns" him off in the real world. The timing seems to be a little too convenient to me.
    IIRC that was only done after may had reported back in that the patriot was dead though..

    Actually, I think the lack of Coulson in SHIELD is a pretty good reason for the undoing of the Avengers - certainly his pivotal role in The Avengers film, but also his contact with some of the Avengers in their previous films.
    Very true. Plus if Hydra had come out, doyou even think some of the avengers would even exist as regular heroes (stark, Hulk, Capt)? Widow might now be a hydra agent, same with hawkeye.. Thor.. he might not have been banished..

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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Not everyone born with cruel or flawed parents necessarily becomes that way themselves, or would automatically believe in their ways of doing things. I mean, people are complicated. Often parental relationships can be complicated. If one believes Fitz is someone who's entire personality can be boiled down to being raised by his mother instead of his father, I guess it makes sense, but it still strikes me as a stretch.

    I mean I think I read an interview by one of the writers on the show that said this version of Fitz is different because his father prevented him from having main Fitz's "womanly intuition" or something to that effect, and that struck me as kind of a shallow explanation for him being a murderous sadist. I mean, not everyone with a hard parent who believes sentimentality is a weakness becomes a psychopath.

    Coulson never really played a crucial role in saving the day in any of the films. Maybe Avengers 1, but even that is questionable. He was a background character in Iron Man 1. In Iron Man 2 he was guarding Tony Stark because Nick Fury told him to. I guess, maybe if he wasn't in Thor, then another agent might not have let Thor go, but we can't know that for sure. Phil was hardly the only good one. I don't see why Black Widow or Hawkeye or even May, frankly would become a HYDRA Agent just because Phil Coulson wasn't there.

    Unless ADA changed the entire background and timetable for HYDRA's infiltration of SHIELD, then Nick Fury would still have been basically calling the shots with regards to the Avengers until Winter Solider. And since HYDRA is still originally known to the world as a Nazi Science Division, all the present day agents should either know it's an old enemy of the SHIELD.

    Plus, if there were no Avengers, then shouldn't "the algorithms" need to account for the other threats they defeated? Did Loki conquer the Earth? Did Malekath remake the universe?
    Last edited by Infinite-Possibilities; April 21st, 2017 at 06:30 PM.
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

    *You got the touch! You got the poweeeeer!*

    "Arise, Woolseyus Prime."

    "Elizabeth..."

  16. #16
    Major General garhkal's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite-Possibilities View Post
    Unless ADA changed the entire background and timetable for HYDRA's infiltration of SHIELD, then Nick Fury would still have been basically calling the shots with regards to the Avengers until Winter Solider. And since HYDRA is still originally known to the world as a Nazi Science Division, all the present day agents should either know it's an old enemy of the SHIELD.

    Plus, if there were no Avengers, then shouldn't "the algorithms" need to account for the other threats they defeated? Did Loki conquer the Earth? Did Malekath remake the universe?
    It would be nice to know exactly when 'shield got defeated' by Hydra in the framework, AND if it takes into account Loki, Thor etc...

  17. #17
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffer View Post
    She was monitoring the vitals of all the people his flat lined so she shut his off.
    She also seemed a little taken aback when it hapoened, as if she didn't know he was dead until she got to him (she checked the others first, surely if she was aware of his death, she'd have gone to his pod directly).

    I wondered whether Madam Hydra was in effect a clone of Aida, who she could plug into every so often to give/receive status updates.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Quote Originally Posted by garhkal View Post
    It would be nice to know exactly when 'shield got defeated' by Hydra in the framework, AND if it takes into account Loki, Thor etc...
    I think the problem is that they are trying to suggest that this is a realistic extrapolation of their lives created by predictive algorithms rather than just a counterfactual scenario that Aida made up because she can make up whatever she wants in the Framework, because now it raises questions like this.

    But I suppose that would undermine their attempt to tell their "this is really how Fitz and Ward and May would be if their lives were different" story.
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

    *You got the touch! You got the poweeeeer!*

    "Arise, Woolseyus Prime."

    "Elizabeth..."

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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite-Possibilities View Post
    Unless ADA changed the entire background and timetable for HYDRA's infiltration of SHIELD, then Nick Fury would still have been basically calling the shots with regards to the Avengers until Winter Solider. And since HYDRA is still originally known to the world as a Nazi Science Division, all the present day agents should either know it's an old enemy of the SHIELD.
    From what I understand, Hydra was able to accellerate their plan in the Framework world because of an incident involving the girl May saved from Bahrain. She saved the girl shortly before Iron Man 1, so I could see that movie happening, but Hydra making their move before the others. From what I remember from Coulson's lesson back in the first episode, Hydra basically convinced people that SHIELD knew the girl was an Inhuman and deliberately put her in a place where she could hurt a bunch more people. I could see May trying to make up for her mistake (and her reaction to kids being endangered by Hydra in this episode kind of follows from her feeling guilty about the deaths caused by the girl she saved).

  20. #20
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    Default Re: No Regrets (418)

    But would she believe she should try to make up for it by joining the Nazis and helping murder all her fellow SHIELD agents?
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

    *You got the touch! You got the poweeeeer!*

    "Arise, Woolseyus Prime."

    "Elizabeth..."

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