No Regrets (418)

[GateWorld]

AGENTS OF S.H.I.E.L.D. - SEASON FOUR NO REGRETS EPISODE NUMBER - 418 When the Patriot goes in search of a Hydra prisoner, Agent May agrees to become a living weapon to stop S.H.I.E.L.D.'s leader. Jemma tries to motivate S.H.I.E.L.D. by sharing the truth about their reality. VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >>

[garhkal]

So Aida/Queen Hidra can leave the framework anytime she wants.
May fighting Mace juiced up was an awesome fight.. BUT i was surprised mace was just a puncher. You would have thought he "by now" would have learned some hand to hand.
AND Wow, mace went out a hero till the end. And i actually was shocked that may seems to be coming around. And i liked her nod towards Mace.
GREAT to see Trip back. And i loved Phil fighting in the place.

And fitz's turning secret. HIS DAD works there. I just can't see though, WHY that would make him so damn heartless..
Also, at the end when may dropped the Teragen crystal to change sky, WHY DIDN'T may die?? Or are these crystals special in that they don't do anything to non humans?

[Bhousden]

So Aida/Queen Hidra can leave the framework anytime she wants.
May fighting Mace juiced up was an awesome fight.. BUT i was surprised mace was just a puncher. You would have thought he "by now" would have learned some hand to hand.
AND Wow, mace went out a hero till the end. And i actually was shocked that may seems to be coming around. And i liked her nod towards Mace.
GREAT to see Trip back. And i loved Phil fighting in the place.

And fitz's turning secret. HIS DAD works there. I just can't see though, WHY that would make him so damn heartless..
Also, at the end when may dropped the Teragen crystal to change sky, WHY DIDN'T may die?? Or are these crystals special in that they don't do anything to non humans?

Remember in the real world that there are crystals that cause terragenesis to potential inhumans without killing non inhumans. Like with the Russian and senator Nadeer. So yeah.....

[Starsaber]

And fitz's turning secret. HIS DAD works there. I just can't see though, WHY that would make him so damn heartless..
Also, at the end when may dropped the Teragen crystal to change sky, WHY DIDN'T may die?? Or are these crystals special in that they don't do anything to non humans?

From some of the stuff they established earlier in the season, his dad wasn't really involved in his life in the real world. From what we heard from him in this episode, he was pretty abusive. Fitz probably didn't know enough about that when his biggest regret was not having a relationship with him, so that would have changed how he was raised.

Also, the only Terrigen crystals that killed humans were the synthetic ones made in Afterlife since they had fragments of the Diviner they got the crystal seeds from in them.

[Teddybrown]

Damn, at least Mace went out a hero...

Looks like Mays coming around and Daisys getting her powers back. Fitz will be the hardest to get back.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

OK, a lot to unpack here. I'm getting the sense that the moral of this season is going to be that everyone needs their regrets and the horrible things that happened to them because without them they'd be completely different and possibly super evil.

I don't think I really buy it. Personality is a very complicated subject, influenced by a great deal of factors and unique for everyone. The premise that Fitz would be a sadist and May would be a clueless imbecile if he was raised by his father and if she saved that inhuman girl is rather thin to me. Particularly if there was supposedly no other changes to the world. The other question is how do "the algorithms" decide that the girl May saved went on to kill others?

I read an article just a week or two ago that suggested that might not have any real core personalities, we could just become potentially anything in the right situation. I could tell that the language was couched in things like "maybe" and "what if," because I'm pretty sure we don't yet have a fully conclusive understanding of the science in real life. If that is the fundamental idea of the story though, I'm almost beginning to wonder if this actually is the end of Fitz/Simmons, even if they do get him back to normal.

I actually forgot Mace was one of the real agents in the Framework. I thought May was fighting a digital avatar of him. It makes the scene make more sense now. It's a shame, I actually really liked the Framework version of him.

I also am actually rather enjoying Framework Ward. But ultimately the question of whether this is all real boils down to two scenarios. Are the characters in the Framework alive? Do they have feelings? Because based on our current understanding, they are not. They only act like they do. Which means that any "pain" they feel is no more real than robo-Fitz screaming as if he was being murdered to get Gemma to stop stabbing him. The only difference is they don't have anything that would make them break character.

However, if they do have feelings then they are alive. Does Hope really love Mack? Is Ward genuinely distressed at the idea of not being real? If so, then they are alive and they are real. That however presents us with different issues. Does the Framework have the equivalent of 7 Billion synthetic brains all the equivalent of ADA's? Does that mean they killed the Framework version of Skye by replacing her with Daisy? It would maybe also mean that Mack arguably has a responsibility not to abandon his daughter by leaving the Framework.

At the end of the day, though. This "Agents of Hydra" scenario very much feels like it's written specifically to be shocking and dramatic, rather than an attempt realistically extrapolate what would happen to the world and characters if a few things were changed.

Especially since for the premise to be that Hydra conquered the world, then when creating the Framework, ADA would probably have had to look at several characters in the Marvel Universe and done this:

Unless of course the implication is that Fitz was the key to the undoing of the Avengers and I'd believe that less than anything else in this episode.

Then again, as time goes on I'm starting to get the sense the writers of the shows and movies don't always really try to connect them a whole lot.


EDIT: Oh and it was funny to hear the cameo from Backshi for a moment there, did they get him back just to those few seconds of voice work and not appear or was that taken from earlier episodes.

[garhkal]

Remember in the real world that there are crystals that cause terragenesis to potential inhumans without killing non inhumans. Like with the Russian and senator Nadeer. So yeah.....

I always thought it was the crystals raw self that did that..

From some of the stuff they established earlier in the season, his dad wasn't really involved in his life in the real world. From what we heard from him in this episode, he was pretty abusive. Fitz probably didn't know enough about that when his biggest regret was not having a relationship with him, so that would have changed how he was raised.

Yea. It did seem like dad kept Fitz on a leash, with reminding him occasionally about whipping, straps etc..

Damn, at least Mace went out a hero...

And that death of Mace, was what seemed to finally bring may back to the "Light side"..
I wonder, how his death in the framework (and thus the real world ala the matrix) will impact the team when they get back TO the real world.

Looks like Mays coming around and Daisys getting her powers back. Fitz will be the hardest to get back.

To be honest, i am not sure they can win Fitz back..

However, if they do have feelings then they are alive. Does Hope really love Mack? Is Ward genuinely distressed at the idea of not being real? If so, then they are alive and they are real. That however presents us with different issues. Does the Framework have the equivalent of 7 Billion synthetic brains all the equivalent of ADA's? Does that mean they killed the Framework version of Skye by replacing her with Daisy? It would maybe also mean that Mack arguably has a responsibility not to abandon his daughter by leaving the Framework.

As i said earlier in the other thread (EP 417), i am starting to think the Framework isnt just a digital realm, but is in essence an entire alternate universe.. BUT one where if you die there, you die here (for those jacked in that is)..
And as for Mack and co. I am unsure if his responsibility to Hope will mean he declines coming back to the real world.

As for ward. I wonder if that genuine distress, is a mark up of all the minds of gemma/phil/daisy etc, WISHING he had proper regrets about turning bad..

[Bhousden]

I personally don't think that Aida "jacks" into the Matrix, but rather is linked via a wireless interface to her FW avatar. That's the only way that I could see her "monitoring" both worlds.

[garhkal]

If she was monitoring both worlds, wouldn't she know what's going on in the real world courtesy of all her bots??

[Infinite-Possibilities]

It's possible Madam Hydra is just a program in the Framework that just pretends it's ADA, as well.

[Bhousden]

If she was monitoring both worlds, wouldn't she know what's going on in the real world courtesy of all her bots??

Seems to me that she knows full well what's going on in the real world. Seeing as how the minute Mace gave his life saving a kid she "turns" him off in the real world. The timing seems to be a little too convenient to me.

[Jeffer]

Seems to me that she knows full well what's going on in the real world. Seeing as how the minute Mace gave his life saving a kid she "turns" him off in the real world. The timing seems to be a little too convenient to me.

She was monitoring the vitals of all the people his flat lined so she shut his off.

[meredithchandler73]

OK, a lot to unpack here. I'm getting the sense that the moral of this season is going to be that everyone needs their regrets and the horrible things that happened to them because without them they'd be completely different and possibly super evil.

I don't think I really buy it. Personality is a very complicated subject, influenced by a great deal of factors and unique for everyone. The premise that Fitz would be a sadist and May would be a clueless imbecile if he was raised by his father and if she saved that inhuman girl is rather thin to me. Particularly if there was supposedly no other changes to the world. The other question is how do "the algorithms" decide that the girl May saved went on to kill others?

I think that an event or a person could definitely change the course of someone's life. You hear about people who used to hang with a bad crowd as a kid or teen. And it took a shocking event (a fellow gang member dying) or a person (a teacher or family member) to get them to go on a different path. Radcliffe mentioned how one sentence could change a life. "I love you." What if Fitz's father told Fitz, "I love you" and then Fitz grew up wanting his father's approval, to be like his father.

As for the Framework deciding that Katya would go on to kill others if she survived, I don't think that's much of a stretch based on her behavior in the real world.

Unless of course the implication is that Fitz was the key to the undoing of the Avengers and I'd believe that less than anything else in this episode.

Actually, I think the lack of Coulson in SHIELD is a pretty good reason for the undoing of the Avengers - certainly his pivotal role in The Avengers film, but also his contact with some of the Avengers in their previous films.

[garhkal]

It's possible Madam Hydra is just a program in the Framework that just pretends it's ADA, as well.

That could be.


BTW, was anyone else getting goose bumps seeing Trip again!?

Seems to me that she knows full well what's going on in the real world. Seeing as how the minute Mace gave his life saving a kid she "turns" him off in the real world. The timing seems to be a little too convenient to me.

IIRC that was only done after may had reported back in that the patriot was dead though..

Actually, I think the lack of Coulson in SHIELD is a pretty good reason for the undoing of the Avengers - certainly his pivotal role in The Avengers film, but also his contact with some of the Avengers in their previous films.

Very true. Plus if Hydra had come out, doyou even think some of the avengers would even exist as regular heroes (stark, Hulk, Capt)? Widow might now be a hydra agent, same with hawkeye.. Thor.. he might not have been banished..

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Not everyone born with cruel or flawed parents necessarily becomes that way themselves, or would automatically believe in their ways of doing things. I mean, people are complicated. Often parental relationships can be complicated. If one believes Fitz is someone who's entire personality can be boiled down to being raised by his mother instead of his father, I guess it makes sense, but it still strikes me as a stretch.

I mean I think I read an interview by one of the writers on the show that said this version of Fitz is different because his father prevented him from having main Fitz's "womanly intuition" or something to that effect, and that struck me as kind of a shallow explanation for him being a murderous sadist. I mean, not everyone with a hard parent who believes sentimentality is a weakness becomes a psychopath.

Coulson never really played a crucial role in saving the day in any of the films. Maybe Avengers 1, but even that is questionable. He was a background character in Iron Man 1. In Iron Man 2 he was guarding Tony Stark because Nick Fury told him to. I guess, maybe if he wasn't in Thor, then another agent might not have let Thor go, but we can't know that for sure. Phil was hardly the only good one. I don't see why Black Widow or Hawkeye or even May, frankly would become a HYDRA Agent just because Phil Coulson wasn't there.

Unless ADA changed the entire background and timetable for HYDRA's infiltration of SHIELD, then Nick Fury would still have been basically calling the shots with regards to the Avengers until Winter Solider. And since HYDRA is still originally known to the world as a Nazi Science Division, all the present day agents should either know it's an old enemy of the SHIELD.

Plus, if there were no Avengers, then shouldn't "the algorithms" need to account for the other threats they defeated? Did Loki conquer the Earth? Did Malekath remake the universe?