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  1. #1
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    Post Paradigm Shift (206)

    Visit the Episode GuideTHE EXPANSE - SEASON TWO
    PARADIGM SHIFT
    EPISODE NUMBER - 206
    The crew receives a hero's welcome back on Tycho Station, where Fred admits he has new plans to strengthen the OPA's position against the Inners. While Holden argues that they should destroy their surviving protomolecule sample, Bobbie Draper find more than they expected from a routine patrol.

    VISIT THE EPISODE GUIDE >>
    Last edited by GateWorld; April 9th, 2017 at 05:04 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    This one took a breath.

    It took the time to be about people, their connections, and their disconnections. It showed that the writers have the good sense to know that you have to slow the bus down after three consecutive brain/heart-melters like the the arc that augered into those clouds last week.

    However, I have a distinct feeling that this storm's gonna have a pretty small eye...

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    ^I agree.

    Though not as exciting as the past few eps, I thought this was a good episode with good character moments.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    I'm starting to have a bit of a hard time understanding the characters in a few cases. In the last episode Fred Johnson was actually worried that the UN would think he is stealing their nukes, and now he is pretty happy to actually steal them.

    The same with Naomi. She is worried that someone will steal the nukes and remove the countermeasures, and then once she learns it's the OPA she's suddenly happy to help them do so. It comes across almost like she is starting to trust Fred Johnson more than Holden and the rest of her crew at this point. I know they've all changed their opinion of him since they first met Fred Johnson, but that would be a total 180 from how she seemingly felt about him and the OPA's cause.

    I know very little about the source material and am trying to avoid spoilers, but I had a weird feeling these latest deaths were coming.

    Hugh Dillion's character was a voice of reason in a grim story where war seems inevitable, so he always seemed like he wasn't long for this worl- I mean, uh... system.

    I also had a weird feeling Miller might not be making out alive back in episode 4 for some reason. And seeing as I think only one of the new Martian marines is technically in the opening credits, killing off almost the whole squad offscreen before they actually get to do much of anything seems about as disappointing as killing off Miller right after he joins the crew of the Rocinate.

    I also really didn't understand the Epstein Drive thing. So the narrator was basically his ghost musing on how the day of his death gave him a place in history or something? I got the sense that they were trying to make you think it was like a documentary he was narrating after the fact or something so you are surprised when he doesn't survive in the end. But if he died while accidentally creating a revolutionary new drive, how did the rest of the system even learn about it? I mean, he's in space. How could there be anything that slows him down long enough for anyone to find his ship?

    And maybe the scene at the end was just artistic license but it seemed to suggest he was propelled in the direction of Jupiter, far away from all the rest of humanity.
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

    *You got the touch! You got the poweeeeer!*

    "Arise, Woolseyus Prime."

    "Elizabeth..."

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    I've only read the first book all the way through, then I decided to stop because I wanted to watch the show without comparing it to the books. I don't know how long that's going to last though, as I feel like starting Caliban's War again.

    Fred Johnson was worried during the crisis last ep when he thought that Earth would nuke him for stealing/misusing the missiles that they let him reluctantly have control of. Once the crisis was over and Earth knew that he didn't use the nukes against them but instead let them go on a trip, if 30 or so out of a few hundred(?) went missing, how would Earth know for sure who stole them or even what happened to them? And I guess maybe Naomi felt that it was best to try to keep things sort of even between Earth, Mars and the OPA, and that's why she was fine with Fred having them?

    Regarding the Epstein Drive and it's creator, I think that was added to give a parallel to this newest great discovery, the Protomolecule, and how it will change things for everyone (though I could be completely off about that). Either that or it will play a role later down the line. And even if he died in space and they never found him or the ship, I would assume that he had plans for the drive back on Mars, and his wife knew he was out testing out his newest toy and I'm sure she would want some kind of investigation into what happened to her husband.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    I was also a bit perplexed by this latest episode. I'll have to rewatch, but yes, some characters are definitely showing another face. Not so much Naomi or Fred Johnson as Diogo and Avasarala.

    As far as Epstein is concerned, was I the only one immediately thinking his dead body eventually reached some alien intelligence which eventually lead to the protomolecule? Sort of like in Star Trek where after warp drive is first tried, Vulcans arrive to check humanity out.

    And if it wasn't mentioned in the episode that Epstein's wife has all the schematics to his drive (I think it was), then it's spelled out in the short story available on Syfy's page (http://www.syfy.com/theexpanse/drive/).

    Lastly: What the heck happened on Ganymede?!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    Quote Originally Posted by TOIVA View Post
    I was also a bit perplexed by this latest episode. I'll have to rewatch, but yes, some characters are definitely showing another face. Not so much Naomi or Fred Johnson as Diogo and Avasarala.

    As far as Epstein is concerned, was I the only one immediately thinking his dead body eventually reached some alien intelligence which eventually lead to the protomolecule? Sort of like in Star Trek where after warp drive is first tried, Vulcans arrive to check humanity out.

    And if it wasn't mentioned in the episode that Epstein's wife has all the schematics to his drive (I think it was), then it's spelled out in the short story available on Syfy's page (http://www.syfy.com/theexpanse/drive/).

    Lastly: What the heck happened on Ganymede?!
    That would be cool, but wasn't the protomolecule on Phoebe for billions of years (like since before it became a moon)? The Epstein Drive did lead to the discovery of the protomolecule anyway, since it allowed for expansion of people throughout the solar system.

    Death and some weird stuff happened on Ganymede lol, that looked like a protomolecule person or something at the end. We'll probably get more on what happened there next episode.

    Is that short story only about the Epstein drive? Does it mention other things that haven't been on the show yet?

  8. #8
    Major Infinite-Possibilities's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    Yeah I got that the Epstein Drive was meant to be a parallel to the Protomolecule, but I just thought the way they told that story was very odd and also confusing.

    I mean, I guess if he left detailed plans at home for his wife, that explains how the rest of the system knows about the Epstein Drive, but still they still did a recurring segment where a dead narrator talks about his death 100 years after the fact.

    Even the Julie Mao flashback at the end of Season 1 felt like it was her internal monologue for the period of time where we followed her. This character felt like he was talking directly to the audience. Had they done that before?

    The closest I can think of is Miller trying summarize the previous season during the begging of the premier. And just seemed more like an extended "Previously on the Expanse" thing.

    And yeah, I thought the Protomolecule was supposedly on Phoebe for "eons." Even after traveling at high speed for a 137 years, would he have left the edge of the Sol System yet? Even if he had, he couldn't have gone far, in galactic terms.
    Last edited by Infinite-Possibilities; September 24th, 2017 at 04:28 PM.
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

    *You got the touch! You got the poweeeeer!*

    "Arise, Woolseyus Prime."

    "Elizabeth..."

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    I don't remember the show using a dead narrator like this before, but I guess it didn't really bother me because this wasn't the first time that I've watched/read something where the person doing the narration turned out to be dead at the end.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    My concern less about the general concept of a dead narrator and more about how this show in particular using it now all of a sudden, especially a season and a half into it's run and for one episode. That just struck me as a strange time to start using a narrative device like that.

    EDIT: Or maybe that itself was also meant to replicate the suddenness of paradigm shifts? I guess we can go with that.
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

    *You got the touch! You got the poweeeeer!*

    "Arise, Woolseyus Prime."

    "Elizabeth..."

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    Oh ok, I'm actually fine with the show occasionally changing things up a bit and using different narrative techniques/devices once in awhile.

    Lol, that could be it!

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    My take on the Epstein story was that we were "hearing" an inner monologue, taking place during that Timeless Time as he was stroking out (which is when it ended, followed by an "Objective" shot of his ship whizzing Oort-ward...). He did say that he'd left detailed notes, and so his wife would become wealthy, and Mars would be free to push the limits outward).

    Agree that a direct connection between Epstein's sepulchral starflight and the sending of the protomolecule doesn't add up, timeline-wise. I do believe that a 13-gee boost for several weeks, followed by a coast at such velocity would have placed him outside the Heliopause in fairly short order, but of course, that's barely poking a toe out the front door, in interstellar terms.

    Hadn't looked at the linked short story on this (and I zoomed through all the books and the three novellas [one of which is integrated into the main storyline in a very satisfying way, re: the Protogen scientist] in about five weeks), but this account is embedded into the narrative in one of the novels. I'll have to have a peek, when I've a bit more time.

    Hadn't seen the parallel of the Epstein Drive and the protomolecule (which is curious; I'm usually All About making those kinds of sideways connections), so thanks for pointing it out. Nice beat, that!

    Ganymede is a ripping good story! Looking forward to it (and I really like that they introduced Bobbie at the beginning of the season, so that we could live her experiences. In the books, that scene is our first introduction to her, which would not have worked nearly as well.

    SO comprehensively satisfied with this series thus far!

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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    The short story I sent a link to contains the story of Epstein meeting his wife (with some tensions between Earth and Mars in the background) and then what was shown in the episode. While I haven't read the books, I don't believe any of it could be spoilery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite-Possibilities View Post
    Yeah I got that the Epstein Drive was meant to be a parallel to the Protomolecule, but I just thought the way they told that story was very odd and also confusing.

    I mean, I guess if he left detailed plans at home for his wife, that explains how the rest of the system knows about the Epstein Drive, but still they still did a recurring segment where a dead narrator talks about his death 100 years after the fact.

    Even the Julie Mao flashback at the end of Season 1 felt like it was her internal monologue for the period of time where we followed her. This character felt like he was talking directly to the audience. Had they done that before?

    The closest I can think of is Miller trying summarize the previous season during the begging of the premier. And just seemed more like an extended "Previously on the Expanse" thing.

    And yeah, I thought the Protomolecule was supposedly on Phoebe for "eons." Even after traveling at high speed for a 137 years, would he have left the edge of the Sol System yet? Even if he had, he couldn't have gone far, in galactic terms.
    Well, even right now, in 2017, one (or is it both?) Voyager probe is already crossing the edge of the Solar system. I believe Epstein reached far higher speeds than Voyager and was on his way longer.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    OK maybe it would have left the Heliosphere, but would it have traveled far enough to reach even the nearest star? And that would be assuming he was even heading towards it. His ship wasn't heading in any particular direction so if he left the Solar System he would almost certainly just be a tiny ship adrift in the depths of interstellar space.
    "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

    *You got the touch! You got the poweeeeer!*

    "Arise, Woolseyus Prime."

    "Elizabeth..."

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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite-Possibilities View Post
    Yeah I got that the Epstein Drive was meant to be a parallel to the Protomolecule, but I just thought the way they told that story was very odd and also confusing.

    I mean, I guess if he left detailed plans at home for his wife, that explains how the rest of the system knows about the Epstein Drive, but still they still did a recurring segment where a dead narrator talks about his death 100 years after the fact.

    Even the Julie Mao flashback at the end of Season 1 felt like it was her internal monologue for the period of time where we followed her. This character felt like he was talking directly to the audience. Had they done that before?


    The closest I can think of is Miller trying summarize the previous season during the begging of the premier. And just seemed more like an extended "Previously on the Expanse" thing.

    And yeah, I thought the Protomolecule was supposedly on Phoebe for "eons." Even after traveling at high speed for a 137 years, would he have left the edge of the Sol System yet? Even if he had, he couldn't have gone far, in galactic terms.
    It's just the particular literary device they went with. Personally I quite enjoy it. It doesn't have to mean anything more than face value.
    Please do me a huge favour and help me be with the love of my life.

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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    Quote Originally Posted by TOIVA View Post
    The short story I sent a link to contains the story of Epstein meeting his wife (with some tensions between Earth and Mars in the background) and then what was shown in the episode. While I haven't read the books, I don't believe any of it could be spoilery.
    Cool! Will definitely have a look, then (I'm effectively spoiler-proof, having read the whole series [actually re-reading now]). There's no mention of his wife, IIRC, in the books, so that bit will be new to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by TOIVA View Post
    Well, even right now, in 2017, one (or is it both?) Voyager probe is already crossing the edge of the Solar system. I believe Epstein reached far higher speeds than Voyager and was on his way longer.
    Oh, yeah, at V-Ger's leisurely amble, it's poked out of the Heliopause after 30-ish years, so 13 Gees for a couple of weeks (already starting from a point beyond Earth) will put him squarely in interstellar space before his fuel pellets are even expended. And yah, there's no mention that he was pointed in any particular direction, so it'll likely be centuries or millennia before he brushes another sun's well.

    Haunting, really...

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    The Epstein drive thing doesn't make sense to me either, unless it is necessary exposition for something yet to come?
    "It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion."
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite-Possibilities View Post
    Yeah I got that the Epstein Drive was meant to be a parallel to the Protomolecule, but I just thought the way they told that story was very odd and also confusing.

    I mean, I guess if he left detailed plans at home for his wife, that explains how the rest of the system knows about the Epstein Drive, but still they still did a recurring segment where a dead narrator talks about his death 100 years after the fact.

    Even the Julie Mao flashback at the end of Season 1 felt like it was her internal monologue for the period of time where we followed her. This character felt like he was talking directly to the audience. Had they done that before?

    The closest I can think of is Miller trying summarize the previous season during the begging of the premier. And just seemed more like an extended "Previously on the Expanse" thing.

    And yeah, I thought the Protomolecule was supposedly on Phoebe for "eons." Even after traveling at high speed for a 137 years, would he have left the edge of the Sol System yet? Even if he had, he couldn't have gone far, in galactic terms.
    In full story it explain that his ship would stop accelerating at about 0.5c, so his vessel presuming it hasn't crash, should be 68.5 light years away from earth.

    You can read the short story on the syfy website, http://www.syfy.com/theexpanse/drive/

    Personally I think it should have come later in the series
    Spoiler:
    perhaps when they discover the portal the protomatter molecule builds that gives humanity access to the stars.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Paradigm Shift (206)

    Quote Originally Posted by Noocyte View Post
    My take on the Epstein story was that we were "hearing" an inner monologue, taking place during that Timeless Time as he was stroking out (which is when it ended, followed by an "Objective" shot of his ship whizzing Oort-ward...). He did say that he'd left detailed notes, and so his wife would become wealthy, and Mars would be free to push the limits outward).

    Agree that a direct connection between Epstein's sepulchral starflight and the sending of the protomolecule doesn't add up, timeline-wise. I do believe that a 13-gee boost for several weeks, followed by a coast at such velocity would have placed him outside the Heliopause in fairly short order, but of course, that's barely poking a toe out the front door, in interstellar terms.

    Hadn't looked at the linked short story on this (and I zoomed through all the books and the three novellas [one of which is integrated into the main storyline in a very satisfying way, re: the Protogen scientist] in about five weeks), but this account is embedded into the narrative in one of the novels. I'll have to have a peek, when I've a bit more time.

    Hadn't seen the parallel of the Epstein Drive and the protomolecule (which is curious; I'm usually All About making those kinds of sideways connections), so thanks for pointing it out. Nice beat, that!

    Ganymede is a ripping good story! Looking forward to it (and I really like that they introduced Bobbie at the beginning of the season, so that we could live her experiences. In the books, that scene is our first introduction to her, which would not have worked nearly as well.

    SO comprehensively satisfied with this series thus far!
    1G get you to Mars in 1 day and about 7 hours, 18 days to the khyber belt. 13G was when he had a stroke, he has enough fuel to keep accelerating for 3 weeks potentially taking him up to hundreds of Gs. He probably got pretty close to C by the time he stopped accelerating.

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