At any rate, the real point is, like Daniel said in Flesh and Blood, "The ascended rule book was getting hard to understand." Generally speaking, in a war, rules or no rules, they tend to be forgotten about since the only objective is achieving ones goals. The ori and ancients seem to disregard the rules when it suits their needs. Oma helping people ascend, orlin warning earth about the Ori, Merlin taking human form retaining his knowledge and powers, Morgan telling Daniel where to find the weapon then following them to the ori galaxy, etc., etc.
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I almost forgot a few things. Let's not forget the ones who built various "DNA" machines not only on Atlantis but throughout the MW to artificially ascend. Granted on Atlantis it was done as a means to escape death at the hands of the wraith, and for arguments sake, let's say that the ones in the MW were made after they returned to earth at the end of the war, at that point it was moot. I mean yes, they were still human so they could do whatever they wanted, but to try to artificially ascend was in essence "cheating" which renders Daniel's argument that if one is to ascend they need to do it on their own, "to prove you deserve to be there." What about the "head suckers" they left behind? It's never mentioned whether they were put in place before their ascension or after. Whatever the case, it could be argued that, if it was done after their ascension, that they were interfering but allowing anybody to come along and have access to all their knowledge, at least IMHO.
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Originally posted by Bhousden View PostAt any rate, the real point is, like Daniel said in Flesh and Blood, "The ascended rule book was getting hard to understand." Generally speaking, in a war, rules or no rules, they tend to be forgotten about since the only objective is achieving ones goals. The ori and ancients seem to disregard the rules when it suits their needs. Oma helping people ascend, orlin warning earth about the Ori, Merlin taking human form retaining his knowledge and powers, Morgan telling Daniel where to find the weapon then following them to the ori galaxy, etc., etc.
Oma helping people ascend was fine because the level of interfering was pretty low: basically if people were capable of ascending anyway, they'd ascend. Oma only gave them a leg-up so to speak.
When it comes to machinery, keep in mind that what we've seen of it was all made in Pegasus. The original Ancients, who also probably made up most of the collective, may not have liked that but preventing it's use is interference in itself.
Thirdly, when it came to Merlin, Orlin, Morgan the Ascended basically didn't want to intervene, even if they did want to help. Merlin was put under supervision, but what he did he did as a human not as an ascended being, so it technically was according to the rules. Orlin descended himself and paid the price himself so no punishment was needed. Morgan hinted at things that Daniel probably could've figured out anyway, but was punished for interfering too far. She did make an effort to hide herself which probably helped in how far she was able to go. Keep in mind that she ultimately suffered the same fate as Oma: perpetual battle. So although she intervened, she also was punished for doing so.
Originally posted by Bhousden View Postthroughout the MW to artificially ascend.
Originally posted by Bhousden View Postbut to try to artificially ascend was in essence "cheating" which renders Daniel's argument that if one is to ascend they need to do it on their own, "to prove you deserve to be there."
Originally posted by Bhousden View PostWhat about the "head suckers" they left behind? It's never mentioned whether they were put in place before their ascension or after. Whatever the case, it could be argued that, if it was done after their ascension, that they were interfering but allowing anybody to come along and have access to all their knowledge, at least IMHO.
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Originally posted by thekillman View PostI don't understand the point you're trying to make?
Originally posted by thekillman View PostOma helping people ascend was fine because the level of interfering was pretty low: basically if people were capable of ascending anyway, they'd ascend. Oma only gave them a leg-up so to speak.
Originally posted by thekillman View PostThirdly, when it came to Merlin, Orlin, Morgan the Ascended basically didn't want to intervene, even if they did want to help. Merlin was put under supervision, but what he did he did as a human not as an ascended being, so it technically was according to the rules. Orlin descended himself and paid the price himself so no punishment was needed. Morgan hinted at things that Daniel probably could've figured out anyway, but was punished for interfering too far. She did make an effort to hide herself which probably helped in how far she was able to go. Keep in mind that she ultimately suffered the same fate as Oma: perpetual battle. So although she intervened, she also was punished for doing so.
Originally posted by thekillman View PostThere were no such devices in the Milky Way. The one machine used to artificially ascend was modified by Anubis, who used his own DNA.
Originally posted by thekillman View PostThe ascension machine kills you. You still need to be mentally able to ascend, in order to ascend. The same goes for Oma's help. These machines make it easier, but ascension itself is still something you have to do on your own.
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Here's a thought.....in The Lost City when SG-1 rings down to the Ancient output and Anubis appears before them as a hologram to slow them down or stop them why didn't he just beam down and take the weapon. He's supposed to have the knowledge of the ancients and he had Asgard beaming tech he stole from Thor's mind. So why was he so stupid?
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