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    #16
    At any rate, the real point is, like Daniel said in Flesh and Blood, "The ascended rule book was getting hard to understand." Generally speaking, in a war, rules or no rules, they tend to be forgotten about since the only objective is achieving ones goals. The ori and ancients seem to disregard the rules when it suits their needs. Oma helping people ascend, orlin warning earth about the Ori, Merlin taking human form retaining his knowledge and powers, Morgan telling Daniel where to find the weapon then following them to the ori galaxy, etc., etc.

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      #17
      I almost forgot a few things. Let's not forget the ones who built various "DNA" machines not only on Atlantis but throughout the MW to artificially ascend. Granted on Atlantis it was done as a means to escape death at the hands of the wraith, and for arguments sake, let's say that the ones in the MW were made after they returned to earth at the end of the war, at that point it was moot. I mean yes, they were still human so they could do whatever they wanted, but to try to artificially ascend was in essence "cheating" which renders Daniel's argument that if one is to ascend they need to do it on their own, "to prove you deserve to be there." What about the "head suckers" they left behind? It's never mentioned whether they were put in place before their ascension or after. Whatever the case, it could be argued that, if it was done after their ascension, that they were interfering but allowing anybody to come along and have access to all their knowledge, at least IMHO.

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        #18
        Originally posted by Bhousden View Post
        At any rate, the real point is, like Daniel said in Flesh and Blood, "The ascended rule book was getting hard to understand." Generally speaking, in a war, rules or no rules, they tend to be forgotten about since the only objective is achieving ones goals. The ori and ancients seem to disregard the rules when it suits their needs. Oma helping people ascend, orlin warning earth about the Ori, Merlin taking human form retaining his knowledge and powers, Morgan telling Daniel where to find the weapon then following them to the ori galaxy, etc., etc.
        I don't understand the point you're trying to make?

        Oma helping people ascend was fine because the level of interfering was pretty low: basically if people were capable of ascending anyway, they'd ascend. Oma only gave them a leg-up so to speak.

        When it comes to machinery, keep in mind that what we've seen of it was all made in Pegasus. The original Ancients, who also probably made up most of the collective, may not have liked that but preventing it's use is interference in itself.

        Thirdly, when it came to Merlin, Orlin, Morgan the Ascended basically didn't want to intervene, even if they did want to help. Merlin was put under supervision, but what he did he did as a human not as an ascended being, so it technically was according to the rules. Orlin descended himself and paid the price himself so no punishment was needed. Morgan hinted at things that Daniel probably could've figured out anyway, but was punished for interfering too far. She did make an effort to hide herself which probably helped in how far she was able to go. Keep in mind that she ultimately suffered the same fate as Oma: perpetual battle. So although she intervened, she also was punished for doing so.

        Originally posted by Bhousden View Post
        throughout the MW to artificially ascend.
        There were no such devices in the Milky Way. The one machine used to artificially ascend was modified by Anubis, who used his own DNA.

        Originally posted by Bhousden View Post
        but to try to artificially ascend was in essence "cheating" which renders Daniel's argument that if one is to ascend they need to do it on their own, "to prove you deserve to be there."
        The ascension machine kills you. You still need to be mentally able to ascend, in order to ascend. The same goes for Oma's help. These machines make it easier, but ascension itself is still something you have to do on your own.


        Originally posted by Bhousden View Post
        What about the "head suckers" they left behind? It's never mentioned whether they were put in place before their ascension or after. Whatever the case, it could be argued that, if it was done after their ascension, that they were interfering but allowing anybody to come along and have access to all their knowledge, at least IMHO.
        Before of course. Why would they leave such machines at all? They were clearly made for their own use and after they died out, were left behind.

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          #19
          Originally posted by thekillman View Post
          I don't understand the point you're trying to make?
          The point I was trying to make is a handful of ancients that we know of chose to interfere as they saw fit, and did so quite frequently. When you reach such as an advanced state of technology and development as the ancients did, you can pretty much make up your own rules.

          Originally posted by thekillman View Post
          Oma helping people ascend was fine because the level of interfering was pretty low: basically if people were capable of ascending anyway, they'd ascend. Oma only gave them a leg-up so to speak.
          "....was fine"???? Let's not forget it was because of Oma's interference that Anubis became so powerful. Capturing Thor, downloading his mind, and gaining access to Asgard that then later allowed Ba'al to capture Adria and implant her with a clone of his symbiote.

          Originally posted by thekillman View Post
          Thirdly, when it came to Merlin, Orlin, Morgan the Ascended basically didn't want to intervene, even if they did want to help. Merlin was put under supervision, but what he did he did as a human not as an ascended being, so it technically was according to the rules. Orlin descended himself and paid the price himself so no punishment was needed. Morgan hinted at things that Daniel probably could've figured out anyway, but was punished for interfering too far. She did make an effort to hide herself which probably helped in how far she was able to go. Keep in mind that she ultimately suffered the same fate as Oma: perpetual battle. So although she intervened, she also was punished for doing so.
          Merlin may have been in a human body, but he used knowledge he attained as an ascended being, or did you forget Morgan conceeding the fact that he "cheated"????

          Originally posted by thekillman View Post
          There were no such devices in the Milky Way. The one machine used to artificially ascend was modified by Anubis, who used his own DNA.
          You seem to have forgotten about the device that Niirti was using to make an advanced human to be her new host.

          Originally posted by thekillman View Post
          The ascension machine kills you. You still need to be mentally able to ascend, in order to ascend. The same goes for Oma's help. These machines make it easier, but ascension itself is still something you have to do on your own.
          Perfect example of yet another piece of ancient tech that was failure because they were facing the threat of being wiped out, and couldn't devote the resources to make it work. Like I said, it was an "attempt" to artifically ascend as a means to escape the war. Given time, like all the failed inventions in Pegasus made as a means to fight the wraith it could be made to work properly.

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            #20
            Here's a thought.....in The Lost City when SG-1 rings down to the Ancient output and Anubis appears before them as a hologram to slow them down or stop them why didn't he just beam down and take the weapon. He's supposed to have the knowledge of the ancients and he had Asgard beaming tech he stole from Thor's mind. So why was he so stupid?

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              #21
              Drones would not work, he does not have a ZPM, at least as far as we know, its the same thing like in the White House.. projection, I do not know if he can "beam", can not remember to saw him doing this

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