ZPMs

[Falcon Horus]

With Atlantis we have that and more.

Except that wasn't the case with the Atlantis expedition.

[Bhousden]

Except that wasn't the case with the Atlantis expedition.

No?

[atterodevice]

It's not my "one-track mind" you have to worry about. The mandate of the SG program from the moment Apophis and his jaffa came to the SGC, our mission was to procure weapons and technology to protect this planet. With Atlantis we have that and more.

This is why I always found it unusual that there wasn't a permanent team on Atlantis with the explicit purpose of trying to find how to build ZPMs and drones as these are the two necessary components to protect Atlantis and for the Antarctica base to protect earth (among other purposes). The means to construct their power sources and primary weapons would undoubtedly be two things any society would keep in its knowledge base.

I could accept a theory that ZPM construction is dangerous and done on Atlantis or another populated area and a military/tech base that built ZPMs would have been a primary target in the war with the Wraith and since destroyed. Maybe the MW ZPM factory was destroyed over time accidentally or naturally. Maybe the ancients destroyed it on their way out to ascension to avoid allowing any future race from having access to too much power.

However, hard to imagine Atlantis and any other military base would not readily have the means to build drones. Something has to replace the drones used in defense and if the city were cut off from supply channels it would have to replace them internally. It doesn't appear Atlantis has any secondary weapons systems. If it can't build ZPMs on site then even the shield is a finite resource. The gate could be used to receive supplies as long as the Wraith did not bring a gate on a hive ship to block dialing in or out of Atlantis.

From a show perspective I get that having easy access to ZPMs and/or drones takes away a lot of plots but it seems they could have at least dealt with the issue (e.g. drone factory was underwater or damaged and they haven't figured out repairs yet).

[Xaeden]

Two reasons:

1) Having information and understanding it are two very different things. When Mckay's intelligence evolved he invented a whole new type of math so he could understand and work with Ancient technology at a level that he previously was not able to. ZPMs are about the peak of Ancient technological prowess. As others have mentioned, even the Asgard haven't cracked that nut despite also having access to the Ancient database. It's like giving data on car building to someone who lived thousands of years ago. There would be a level of expected understanding in that data, including terms and mathematical formulas, that our ancestors were not privy to. The database wouldn't contain a step by step manual that tries to teach someone how to do it in the simplest terms, as if it was a furniture construction guide.

Why, though, didn't Mckay figure out how to build ZPMs while smarter? He didn't have enough time. He didn't gain instant access to knowledge like Jack did so there's still a process to learning things. At the beginning he was working on smaller projects while building his knowledge and, toward the end, his focus was on saving his own life. ZPM technology is a monolith of sorts that he needed to build up to and then have the time to properly work on. You don't go from "having ideas" for how to maximize your existing ZPM to knowing how to construct new ones overnight.

2) Lack of industry. Also, as others have noted, there's nothing in Atlantis to suggest they had the means to build ZPMs there, and I would argue that it was unlikely given spacial constraints, potential dangers for the population, the ease with which they would've been able to access an off-world facility thanks to the Stargate, and the power problems they faced at the end of the war, which are suggestive to me that perhaps they lost their ZPM factory to a Wraith attack.

I'm not sure why you think the Asuran's ability to create ZPMs means Atlantis had to have a ZPM factory. All that proves is that they had access to the Ancient database (they're machines; they probably stuck their hands in an Ancient computer at some point and downloaded everything), had the intelligence needed to understand it fully, and had the means to build up their industrial capabilities.

A couple of other things:

1) Why would we assume Atlantis was built on Earth? To me it's more likely that they built it somewhere else and flew it to Earth. Why ship untold tons of everything they need to build a city on a whole new world when they could centralize everything on a planet with dedicated shipyards and then send completed city ships on their way? That and the ability to move a city if there are environmental or other problems, after millions of years in a single location, are advantages of mobile versus static city building.

2) In the "Siege Part I," Weir discussed with Zelenka what from the database they should take with them (they were planning to flee the city at that point) and the issue of ZPMs came up...

WEIR
That's not why I wanted to see you. You have to get me more than seven or eight percent of the database. There has got to be a way of taking more with us.

ZELENKA
Maybe nine percent.

WEIR
How do I choose between zero point module research and their work on ascension? Between weapons schematics and their notes on space travel? No matter what we choose here, invaluable information is going to be lost, and that is just the information that we've deciphered. Now, we all know we have barely even begun to scratch the surface. What if we destroy the cure for all disease? Or even some piece of information that could lead to the downfall of the Wraith?

So it's something they were working on and no doubt continued to work on both back on Earth and on Atlantis. I appreciate that it's a show that speeds up problem solving and replication of alien technologies to suit their narrative but they've never gone full cartoon with it, which is what they would be doing if all of the sudden they could build ZPMs from scratch just because they found some data.

If you were given a data dump related to nuclear weapon construction, do you think you'd be making nukes the next day, week, month, year, or decade? You might counter that by saying you're not a scientist, but the disparity between you and a nuclear scientist is somewhat comparable to the difference between an Ancient and Earth scientist. Although, even if you gave that nuclear weapon data to an actual scientist, without the infrastructure and support of an entire country, he/she is not going to get anywhere either. The Ancients gave up on the idea of continuing their civilization for exactly this reason; they realized they would have had to rebuild, practically from scratch and that task was far too daunting for them. Earth has access to the same city they did but with a much lower understanding of the information in the database, greatly reduced brain capacity that would help them understand that information, and less technology (the Ancients packed up much of what wasn't nailed down; leaving behind a few jumpers, various machines dedicated to failed experiments, and the odd thing here or there). But, sure, they should be able to build ZPMs and drones and jumpers and battleships and city ships by now, right?

What is a ZPM's shell even made up of? Some sort of crystal? How do you construct that? What materials do you need? What machines do you need to build that can build other machines that can build other machines capable of creating that material? Have you ever thought of how hard it would be to build even a toaster from scratch? As in, without all the tools of our industrial society that makes it possible to procure and build all the little bits that go into it, including rubber and steel and all that fun stuff? Well, you're in luck; there's a great Ted video about someone's journey to do just that: https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thw...r_from_scratch Spoiler: It's insanely hard and the end result is a partially successful mess.

[garhkal]

Nice rundown.. Knowing how, and being physically capable AND having the resources to do something are different balls of wax..

[thekillman]

Nice rundown.. Knowing how, and being physically capable AND having the resources to do something are different balls of wax..

We also never found out if they truly are powersources. looking at Destiny's recharge mechanism, i can imagine the Ancients had a single sundive platform somewhere that built and charged ZPM's.

Looking at their poweruse, it seems the Ancients only needed a refill every few thousand years, so mass-producing ZPM's wouldn't be very important. And the Asurans could've done the same by launching a Cityship into the sun.

I also think it's important to note that the Ancients showed very little industrialization, as they mostly seemed to build stuff that lasts for millenia and weren't all that expansive.

[aretood2]

Two reasons:

1) Having information and understanding it are two very different things. When Mckay's intelligence evolved he invented a whole new type of math so he could understand and work with Ancient technology at a level that he previously was not able to. ZPMs are about the peak of Ancient technological prowess. As others have mentioned, even the Asgard haven't cracked that nut despite also having access to the Ancient database. It's like giving data on car building to someone who lived thousands of years ago. There would be a level of expected understanding in that data, including terms and mathematical formulas, that our ancestors were not privy to. The database wouldn't contain a step by step manual that tries to teach someone how to do it in the simplest terms, as if it was a furniture construction guide.

Why, though, didn't Mckay figure out how to build ZPMs while smarter? He didn't have enough time. He didn't gain instant access to knowledge like Jack did so there's still a process to learning things. At the beginning he was working on smaller projects while building his knowledge and, toward the end, his focus was on saving his own life. ZPM technology is a monolith of sorts that he needed to build up to and then have the time to properly work on. You don't go from "having ideas" for how to maximize your existing ZPM to knowing how to construct new ones overnight.

2) Lack of industry. Also, as others have noted, there's nothing in Atlantis to suggest they had the means to build ZPMs there, and I would argue that it was unlikely given spacial constraints, potential dangers for the population, the ease with which they would've been able to access an off-world facility thanks to the Stargate, and the power problems they faced at the end of the war, which are suggestive to me that perhaps they lost their ZPM factory to a Wraith attack.

I'm not sure why you think the Asuran's ability to create ZPMs means Atlantis had to have a ZPM factory. All that proves is that they had access to the Ancient database (they're machines; they probably stuck their hands in an Ancient computer at some point and downloaded everything), had the intelligence needed to understand it fully, and had the means to build up their industrial capabilities.

A couple of other things:

1) Why would we assume Atlantis was built on Earth? To me it's more likely that they built it somewhere else and flew it to Earth. Why ship untold tons of everything they need to build a city on a whole new world when they could centralize everything on a planet with dedicated shipyards and then send completed city ships on their way? That and the ability to move a city if there are environmental or other problem, after millions of years in a single location, are advantages of mobile versus static city building.

2) In the "Siege Part I," Weir discussed with Zelenka what from the database they should take with them (they were planning to flee the city at that point) and the issue of ZPMs came up...

WEIR
That's not why I wanted to see you. You have to get me more than seven or eight percent of the database. There has got to be a way of taking more with us.

ZELENKA
Maybe nine percent.

WEIR
How do I choose between zero point module research and their work on ascension? Between weapons schematics and their notes on space travel? No matter what we choose here, invaluable information is going to be lost, and that is just the information that we've deciphered. Now, we all know we have barely even begun to scratch the surface. What if we destroy the cure for all disease? Or even some piece of information that could lead to the downfall of the Wraith?

So it's something they were working on and no doubt continued to work on both back on Earth and on Atlantis. I appreciate that it's a show that speeds up problem solving and replication of alien technologies to suit their narrative but they've never gone full cartoon with it, which is what they would be doing if all of the sudden they could build ZPMs from scratch just because they found some data.

If you were given a data dump related to nuclear weapon construction, do you think you'd be making nukes the next day, week, month, year, or decade? You might counter that by saying you're not a scientist, but the disparity between you and a nuclear scientist is somewhat comparable to the difference between an Ancient and Earth scientist. Although, even if you gave that nuclear weapon data to an actual scientist, without the infrastructure and support of an entire country, he/she is not going to get anywhere either. The Ancients gave up on the idea of continuing their civilization for exactly this reason; they realized they would have had to rebuild, practically from scratch and that task was far too daunting for them. Earth has access to the same city they did but with a much lower understanding of the information in the database, greatly reduced brain capacity that would help them understand that information, and less technology (the Ancients packed up much of what wasn't nailed down; leaving behind a few jumpers, various machines dedicated to failed experiments, and the odd thing here or there). But, sure, they should be able to build ZPMs and drones and jumpers and battleships and city ships by now, right?

What is a ZPM's shell even made up of? Some sort of crystal. How do you construct that? What materials do you need? What machines do you need to build that can build other machines that can build other machines capable of creating that material? Have you ever thought of how hard it would be to build even a toaster from scratch? As in, without all the tools of our industrial society that makes it possible to procure and build all the little bits that go into it, including rubber and steel and all that fun stuff? Well, you're in luck; there's a great Ted video about someone's journey to do just that: https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thw...r_from_scratch Spoiler: It's insanely hard and the end result is a partially successful mess.

Ironically, Orlin made a stargate out of toaster ovens

[Xaeden]

We also never found out if they truly are powersources. looking at Destiny's recharge mechanism, i can imagine the Ancients had a single sundive platform somewhere that built and charged ZPM's.

Looking at their poweruse, it seems the Ancients only needed a refill every few thousand years, so mass-producing ZPM's wouldn't be very important. And the Asurans could've done the same by launching a Cityship into the sun.

Or, each ZPM taps into an individually created region of subspace-time, which eventually collapses...

MCKAY
A zero-point module is an artificially created region of subspace-time. It's kind of like a miniature universe in a bottle.

ZELENKA
It extracts vacuum energy from this artificial region of subspace-time until it reaches maximum entropy.

-Trinity

Destiny needed to be specially designed around a recharge mechanism because it was expected to operate autonomously, rather than being regularly resupplied. For their everyday needs they relied on a disposal power source because creating more wasn't a problem during the height of civilization. It only became a problem when resources became scarce during the Wraith war.

It's curious, though, that they never thought to replicate Destiny's design as part of their various efforts to harness alternative sources of energy like geothermal and zero point energy from their own universe. At least for their ships, that would have been a "tad" useful considering it seems like the Destiny at full capacity would've been superior to an a non-ZPM powered Ancient battleship (particularly with modern upgrades like drones and more advanced shield emitters).

They could've designed a new ship that relied primarily on whatever energy battleships normally rely on, but also came equipped with the ability to store energy from stars. Then they could have tapped into that extra power source for superior and longer lasting shield strength in battle. Other bonuses include no longer running the risk that the Wraith could capture ZPMs from crippled ships (it's not like they'd be able to replicate sun harvesting technology, what with their organic ship designs), less stress on their ZPM production, and the ability to flee from the Wraith by hiding close to a star until reinforcements came. Sure, replacing all their battleships would have been too time consuming and resource heavy, but if they exclusively built this new type of ship when replacing destroyed ones and directed these ships deep into Wraith territory rather than the ones with ZPMs, they would've been a bit better off.

Ironically, Orlin made a stargate out of toaster ovens

True, but it only worked once before burning out. I wouldn't want to be on the same planet with a ZPM that only effectively worked for a few seconds. If you're lucky, it just shuts down. If you're not so lucky... boom.

Of course, jerry-rigging an unsafe ZPM "husk" designed to draw power from an artificial pocket of subspace time and actually forming an artificial pocket of sub-space time are on "slightly" different levels.

[thekillman]

Or, each ZPM taps into an individually created region of subspace-time, which eventually collapses...

It is never explained whether this is region is created or collected. It could be that the Ancients used ZPM's as batteries.

[Xaeden]

It is never explained whether this is region is created or collected. It could be that the Ancients used ZPM's as batteries.

Hmm? "A zero-point module is an artificially created region of subspace-time."

[Zman]

Speaking of which, since Atlantis is on Earth why don't they just fire up the hyperdrive engines again and pick off the alliance one system at a time? Better yet, find some way to set a trap for them and get a big fleet of their ships in one place and use the Atlantis drones to blow them up. It's not like they have any weapons capable of defeating Atlantis's defenses.

And, there is a finite number of Drones to fire.
I don't remember any episodes where they manufactured more drones, they did find more on another planet that they recovered.

[AleksisMi]

i was always upset they never returned and repaired and restored all the abilities of the second city ship in that episode the tower, that would have been perfect to create a hybred ancient/pyramid ship hybred, or they could have given it to the asgard, a nice little gift for them to play with even if it was not perfect, secondly they should have had asgard on atlantis with thier own computers and ships they could have built a secondary layer of starship around atlantis to provide power, lower energy shields and other secondary systems, that of course is story breaking,

the other path was they should have searched the database for colony building and how to construct other types of power generation, just reference various things like hte elemental numbers for naquadah and naquadriah etc

they could have build aurora class power generators probably and at worst just used one of the landing platforms to build a series of vast gouuld hatack generators on, and suddenly your ship has tons of power, plus you could have done other stuff

but basically i would say search for how to build naquadah based technology useing thier atomic weights and numbers and you would have a slightly better chance to research how to start a new starship or colony,

in fact htey should know the construction of a aurora power source since they have seen several etc

i was also upset they didnt force the travelers into alliance and work with thier aurora ship in consort with atlantis, in trade for giving a free travel to the milky way for as many of thier people as needed etc, even send them to earth, help give them industry and earth gains a new ship yard and alliance with a advanced engineering based world/people

[AleksisMi]

fyi as far as atlantis having a purpose as a weapon source, the best way to gain peoples trust is to show them how meaningless it is for them to attack you and how easy it is for you to completely destroy everything in thier weapons and personal assets, if you show them they can trust you by you not destroying or ruining them you increase thier willingness to trust you further when you go so far as to give them more and trust them more without asking anything in return or even demanding respect or "honorary" rights or priveleges, the more you do out of sheer freindship, and not for worship or power, the more rightious or atleast tolerable and acceptable having you be the main power in the universe it is, when people feel threatened, belittled, or simply undervalued, when they feel thier future limited by your very existence is when they try to threaten you, earth could with time and without pride, gain the trust and freindship of all the planets of thier galaxy and more

[pro]

"I thought he would be more.. Ancienty"

[pro]

Maybe they came up with ZPMs in the galaxy of Ida.
Remember that O'Neill built a ZPM when he had the knowledge of the Ancients downloaded in his brain and that he dialled the gate to the Ida galaxy where the Asgard said "The Ancients moved on from this place a long time ago"

It is quite possible that the Ancients came up with ZPM technology there, maybe..