Have the wraith been defeated?

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Except that in the current situation, it's not for their food. it's for their own essential survival. Look how far humans are willing to go. Why wouldn't the wraith take the treatment. They build entire organic ships, it's not like the humans are more knowledgeable on biotech like this. The wraith can invent their own treatment and administer it.

Because Wraith probably wouldn't like fundamentally changing their way or life and their very bodies. The way the wraith are, I can't see the majority of them preferring to give up feeding instead of fighting to the death for dominance. Especially since the Wraith's feeding is likely was gives them their powers and changing it would probably be seen as mutilating themselves.

Even Todd seemed reluctant when Keller raised the issue with him. "What would we do? Who would we be?"

In the past, their solution to food shortages has always been going back into hibernation.

I do not believe that the total extinction of the Wraith can be justified that way. It also doesn't exactly make us better than them, or better than the Goa'uld for that matter. I can not see any situation where any of our Milky way allies would like this "solution".

I thought the Tok'ra already taught us an important lesson regarding the fate of entire races.

There is no part of this situation that can be justified. There are only bad choices. Maybe we can't justify wiping them out, but we can't justify letting their dominance continue either. That's why I said it was so tragically intractable. Some might agree to the treatment, but most probably won't.

There's also no Tok'ra equivalent of the wraith feeding. You can't really have just a small amount of dying in agony. There aren't going to be enough Tok'ra esque volunteers to support any kind of wraith population and even if the wraith did take the genetic engineering, they would not willingly give up control of the galaxy.

[garhkal]

Considering the Wraith's situation i see no other way for them than to take the treatment. No race would be stupid or prideful enough to consider extinction over change. Not even the ancients did it, since they had secured their race in humanity.

But how would we exterminate them without diseasing all the humans (like michael tried doing)?

And as todd said, iirc in the episode Queen, " but what will we become then"? Feeding is so ingrained in their nature, to remove it the way the treatment does, would be like removing tool use from humans..

[thekillman]

Because Wraith probably wouldn't like fundamentally changing their way or life and their very bodies. The way the wraith are, I can't see the majority of them preferring to give up feeding instead of fighting to the death for dominance. Especially since the Wraith's feeding is likely was gives them their powers and changing it would probably be seen as mutilating themselves.

Under the threat of total annihilation, they would. Besides, Michael and his hybrids proved you can still retain quite a few Wraith powers. E.g. michael seemed to be able to use telepathy.

Even Todd seemed reluctant when Keller raised the issue with him. "What would we do? Who would we be?"

In the past, their solution to food shortages has always been going back into hibernation.

I would expect a race that's dominant for 10 000 years to be reluctant to admit they may be losing.

That's why I said it was so tragically intractable. Some might agree to the treatment, but most probably won't.

I think a majority (60-70%) would. Either way, those that will, survive. The rest will inevitably be wiped out by war as they continue to fight for dwindling resources. On earth, there's always a tipping point where alternative sources win out to a scarce resource. It's only a matter of time before the Wraith will take the treatment en masse.

There's also no Tok'ra equivalent of the wraith feeding. You can't really have just a small amount of dying in agony. There aren't going to be enough Tok'ra esque volunteers to support any kind of wraith population and even if the wraith did take the genetic engineering, they would not willingly give up control of the galaxy.

I meant that the tok'ra showed that not all Goa'uld were evil, that there were groups willing to change and resist the greater group. It also proved to reflect their society further, as many goa'uld that seemed so rooted in their beliefs were willing to abandon them in order to live.

But how would we exterminate them without diseasing all the humans (like michael tried doing)?

Our weapons seem pretty effective against their ships, which seem to be their major population centers as well. We can bring their numbers down to near-insignificant numbers and watch them die out, slowly.

And as todd said, iirc in the episode Queen, " but what will we become then"? Feeding is so ingrained in their nature, to remove it the way the treatment does, would be like removing tool use from humans..

I see plenty of people willingly forgo meat as a form of sustenance even though it's ingrained in our nature to be omnivores. Well, the wraith have little choice in this. It's either that or extinction.

[garhkal]

People seem to think those are the only 2 options. There is imo a 3rd.. The wraith UNITE to make sure WE don't get a foothold back IN the pegasus galaxy, to even TRY and exterminate them...

[Mnikolic]

In that case, the only viewable and acceptable option would be if the Atlantis expedition, the Genii, the reminder of the Athosians and anyone else who's against the Wraith terror would reach a deal with them - like a piece settlement that would involve the United Nations of the Pegasus Galaxy (as seen in "Inquisition"). The Wraith offer a deal to stop the terror and become the master race in the Pegasus after taking the treatment to get rid of the Wraith cells in exchange of Atlantis either being destroyed or moved to a different Galaxy. The Atlantis expedition settles for the latter option and Beckett comes up with a better version of the treatment that is administered to their enemy. However, as a part of the settlement, they must take Atlantis with them, so Jack, Woolsey and McKay make a deal with some of Earth's allies to move the city to one of their planets in their Galaxy. That way, piece in ensured in the Pegasus Galaxy, the Wraith terror is over, their technology ceased by the UN Pegasus and Atlantis is to never set a foot again in it.

[garhkal]

That's assuming that we can even PERFECT that treatment and that it is permanent..

[thekillman]

That's assuming that we can even PERFECT that treatment and that it is permanent..

It seems to be a minor modification. We've already seen far more extreme treatments like Michael's hybrids, and we've seen them be permanent and successfull.

There's no reason to believe it won't work the way it should, especially since the Wraith here are the biotech experts.

People seem to think those are the only 2 options. There is imo a 3rd.. The wraith UNITE to make sure WE don't get a foothold back IN the pegasus galaxy, to even TRY and exterminate them...

Maybe, but it doesn't solve the food problem that is central to their weakness.

Besides, we have intergalactic ships, they don't.

I would expect the IOA would be really happy to be rid of the Pegasus expedition, as it can't possibly be cheap to have a hundred+ crew intergalactic ship do roundtrips all the time, nor can it be cheap to pay a several-hundred-man expedition in another galaxy. It would free up quite a bit of resources for use in the Milky way. So there's definitely incentive for Earth to do this. There's reasons for the Wraith to do it. and the pegasus people may not be terribly pleased, but since they're largely incapable of seriously fighting the Wraith, they have little choice.

Besides, quite a few Wraith are 10 000 years old. I would expect them to be capable of staying down a couple of centuries to rebuild. They can use that time to adjust to their new situation and figure out what to do precisely, like how to cope with their non-feeding reality. Going to war again would be stupid.

[garhkal]

Besides, quite a few Wraith are 10 000 years old. I would expect them to be capable of staying down a couple of centuries to rebuild. They can use that time to adjust to their new situation and figure out what to do precisely, like how to cope with their non-feeding reality. Going to war again would be stupid.

Here's a serious question for ya.. Feeding to the wraith is so intergral to their entire society/way of life, and asking them to give it up or be exterminated, would be like an alien race coming down here, and telling US Humans "Get rid of your speaking your mind to one another, or we will wipe you out"

Its not something i see them as just 'accepting'.

[thekillman]

Here's a serious question for ya.. Feeding to the wraith is so intergral to their entire society/way of life, and asking them to give it up or be exterminated, would be like an alien race coming down here, and telling US Humans "Get rid of your speaking your mind to one another, or we will wipe you out"

Its not something i see them as just 'accepting'.

I simply disagree. It's important to them, but it's hardly a cornerstone. Michael already showed Wraith powers are not uniquely a side-effect of their feeding. We know the Ancients had advanced powers without feeding. We know the treatment is less invasive than any other treatment like the iratus transformation to sheppard, the queen transformation of Teyla, the retrotransform to humans for wraith, or hybridization.

Secondly, their macho activities aren't based upon feeding. They can continue being warlike among their kin, and if they really desire their highest echelons like Queens (who seem to be immune to the virus in general) can feed upon the wraith themselves. Drones seem non-sentient and can serve as their food source if they so desire, but we have no business with whether they feed on themselves. And they're also not adverse to feeding on their own if needed.

Thirdly, they have no choice. The alternative to not taking the treatment would be defeating humanity, and that's already really difficult. Only if the IOA decides that the risk of the Wraith breaking containment is gone (which, considering the Superhive incident, is unlikely) and they retreat because Atlantis is now on earth would the wraith have any chance of retaking Pegasus. If they take on earth, they're too weakened to win.

Furthermore, like i said, humans on earth are able to willingly give up an integral part of their feeding. We've changed plenty of times, no matter how integral it was. Slavery was integral to the South US but it's gone. I can name plenty of more things. Feeding to the wraith isn't so important that they would rather go extinct than give it u.

[garhkal]

They have no choice?? So in essence we are now like the ORI.. Do as we say or else?

[The Flyattractor]

Yes. That is pretty much how the Earthlings do things in that SG Universe.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

They have no choice?? So in essence we are now like the ORI.. Do as we say or else?

If by "do as we say" you mean "end your millennia long cycle of genocide..."

[thekillman]

They have no choice?? So in essence we are now like the ORI.. Do as we say or else?

The wraith have three choices:

1: Fight against earth and pegasus inhabitants over domination.
2: reduce their numbers to a sustainable amount and try to live in a truce
2: accept the treatment and survive.

But the first two are not really choices. They're already losing the war, and there won't be a truce as long as they feed on humans, the pegasus humans will never accept it.

Therefore, the wraith only have 1 true choice: Take the treatment, or go extinct.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Are they losing the war? I don't think so. The biggest threat to the wraith is still other wraith.

[garhkal]

If by "do as we say" you mean "end your millennia long cycle of genocide..."

More like "Stop treating us humans as mere cattle.. Even though in effect that IS what we are to you, much as a cow is to us"..