Prepare for Starburst: A Farscape Rewatch Thread

[jelgate]

Commenting of all of these took forever but it was fun

@Jel and FH... Thank you for your comments and the invitation to stay and continue the reviews. I just didn't want to cause undue drama or "political" bickering in this thread since this is supposed to be for entertainment. And yes I remember some of those times when heated discussions went on in other threads years ago And yes we will have to just agree to disagree. I am all for that because Tolerance does NOT have to equal agreement!

But we bicker all the time.

DISCLAIMER:
With that said let me just say that I may from time to time say stupid things and I apologize for them ahead of time. I treat these reviews as a way I can voice my own personal opinions which are largely made up of my unique life experiences which include religious, political and social interactions with the people who I'm involved with in my real life and try as I might, bias may come out from time to time in doing reviews such as these. I doubt anyone can claim they are 100% bias free all the time. It's important to try to remember that we all come from such varying and diverse backgrounds, experiences and cultural situations that some personal offenses may inevitably happen. Unfortunately, it's not always possible to Zhaan into someone's mind and consciousness and see all things the way they do, so unfortunately it becomes very difficult to remain sensitive to everyone's unique perspectives and perceptions. Please don't take what I say as a personal attack as that is not my intention.

Only some of the times? Everyone treats their posts as their opinions. Even in the bickering threads. Also all of our reviews are going to be biased to our own viewpoints. Like you with your shipping. Blue with her editing. Me with me non-John/Aeryn characters. Not sure what FH's bias is but I know from our Stargate bickering she has some (4th law).

Ok so.... *breathes in deeply*

Taking the Stone

I love this ep, unlike jel who hates it. There! We're already at odds here *Jumps off the cliff* Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!! *THUD*

*removes the sonic net*
It won't be the first or last time. Again S3

I think this ep is so important as it sets up the following things for us:

Establishes Aeryn and John as the "Parental Units" to Chiana - It's so clear to me...maybe because I am a parent IDK, that this is the role Aeryn and John were playing in this ep. I thought it was critical to the story because it clearly sets Chiana as the child or little sister to John and pretty much seals the John/Aeryn (J/A) ship as the One True Pairing (OTP) in this series up to this point ....again IMO. I think it's been a little muddled from time to time with the Chiana's advances toward Crichton to their sizzling on screen chemistry between those two characters, I think it was a decision of the writing team to try to put characters in their respective places and I appreciate that! I hate when shows *cough*Friends*cough* write their characters allowing anyone to bed anyone at anytime on any ep ad nausem that it's almost painful to watch. I love it when a writing team takes a clear and definitive stance on who will likely hook up with whom early on and they stick with that. Now it doesn't mean that dampens the chemistry it just sets clear boundaries.

*get out the barf bucket*
I'm not going to even comment on the OTP. Its more of a big brother/sister role. It was about grieving and John and Aeryn are older. One of the things about being older is that we have seen more death. John and Aeryn's role was being the older ones was to help Chiana process the lose of her real brother. I don't see the two acting as parents. It felt more like they were acting as older siblings helping someone out. I think it referenced when Chiana doesn't call John her brother

With that said, I could really relate from the whole J/A Parental Team at how different Aeryn wanted to play mother to Chi and How John struggled with the Paternal role. Aeryn being the more "give Chi" the reigns and let her work through it and then John trying to knock her out and drag her back to Moya. It was a sort of classic overprotective Father trying to bring his daughter to safety while Aeryn played a typical peace keeper role (not necessarily the faction PK) but you know what I mean. And I loved that John recognized that Aeryn had wisdom regarding the matter.

More with their various roles difference. Aeryn has experienced loss more being military while John had the standard sheltered life. Its part of John nature to want to help his friends. John can't see any of his friends die no matter what.

To Intervene or Not Intervene?? That is the Question
I do think as parents or as a "guardian figure" and you recognize that your ward or child is engaging in life threatening behaviors either by engaging in some harmful substance abuse, or other behaviors that could severely harm their well being we do have a responsibility to intervene in as loving a way possible. True people need to try to do it on their own, but I do think at some point in severe mind altering situations (addict or dangerous cult like situations), people may not be capable of getting themselves out of the trouble so this is a tenuous subject at best. I think John grappled with how to intervene. I think he knew he needed to intervene but didn't exactly know how.

You seem to have gone all in what this crazy theory. Not just child. If my friend is being dumb and stupid. I once tied a guy to a tree, but that is another story. Their is a balance of how far you let a grieving person go. In the real world you probably wouldn't let them jump off a cliff.

Modes of Intervention
So what does John do? He jumps in with both feet and tried to get on their level and ate the 'shrooms. Silly John! Now in retrospect as Aeryn mentioned that was probably as equally stupid of him cuz it turned out that wasn't as helpful as actually obtaining the tissue sample from the Lost One woman. They all decided to educate the kids in order to try to help them. I appreciated the fact that they didn't make it a Kumbaya moment at the end where all the kids just said...Hey yeah cool....let's just move to the surface. I loved that this community albeit (somewhat cult like) decided they didn't want to throw away their way of life and change. They liked taking the stone, they didn't want to grow old. That was within their rights after all they weren't really hurting anyone outside of their community or taking anyone inside their community against their will. They were pretty much a self contained unit and not kidnapping people so meh.....to each their own.

It seemed stupid and out of character for John to eat the mushroom. The society seemed equally stupid to me. I understand they are children but it seemed crazy they want to die young. I want to live forever. *put barf bucket away*
We'll meet again old friend.

Other bits that were really insightful to me were:

Rygel's comeuppance with regard to his greed and habit of stealing shiny things. Is he related to PH by chance? LOL I loved that he dragged that crap all the way back down and replaced it back to where it belonged.....Good for you Rygel....even if it took a mighty "curse" to do it.

I'm convinced the curse was Zhaan's doing. It didn't happen until she did her chant

Importance of Maintaining your SHIPS SHIPS And MORE SHIPS Yes this section is for you jel since you hate "shipping so much"

You have made a classic mistake. I don't hate ships. I hate when they because front and center and dominate a show. Love is human nature so it would be wrong to not have it featured but when everything is shipping it get nauseating. We are not here yet on Farscape. Its only you who thinks everything is shipping Reminds me of how in SG1 every look between jack and sam was proof of the relationship to shippers

Isn't it funny when John was appearing to Maintain Moya's Guidance systems in the beginning that he really wasn't doing that great of a job? It was sparking and shocking him and he was almost cursing it? Well I think that was a little situational model or metaphor that all ships as in our Relationships and their guidance controls always need a little TLC from time to time.

Well he did admit he was taking it apart to learn how it works

Because we have Chiana's Link to her brother and her dealing with the grief of that. She begged John for his help, that she needed to talk. John showed annoyance with Chi and even pushed her away by saying NOT NOW! This was just like how often times a busy parent or a busy family member or friend could treat another family member or friend. We lose sight of how sometimes we let our important relationships sort of suffer because we do become so busy and don't MAKE time for them. We just come to expect them as a mundane part of our lives which require little to no maintenance. I think this too can be a dangerous area for us or a warning not to let that happen in our important relationships in our lives.

Talking about Foley again?

I can kind of see your point here of how John was preoccupied but I thought it was a little strange for John to not see Chiana is hurting

IMO, no relationship is ever that solid that you can ignore it and not expect it to die on the vine. I think all relationships need to be nurtured and tended to in order for it to thrive and become as solid and healthy as it can be. And yes that is for all ships not just the romantic ones.

I think that was a real eye opener for John and he admitted his guilt about it later.

Agreed

And I think I better stop there or jel will beat me up again.

[/QUOTE] That is what the poof room is for
To Be Continued

[jelgate]

Part 2

Taking the Stone

I’m not keen on this episode. But, as I respect SQ’s life choices, I’ll stand on the top of the cliff and politely applaud as she hurls herself off it. No whooping though: I’m British.

Can we have a spot of tea while she falls down. Cherrio governor. I'll stop now before I embarrass myself further

From a vidding point of view, there are a few nice shots but not many. This is a very dimly lit episode and the non-Moya sets looks a bit ‘generic TV sci-fi cave planet’.

What about the sonic net? That looks interesting

All the shots of people actually jumping have lovely movement though. Particularly a few camera moves of Crichton and/or Aeryn watching that drop down (although one of those is used in the title credits, so it’s probably easier to get it from another episode).

I should of finished reading before commenting above

Chiana is doing a good job demonstrating the importance of making time to talk to the teenagers in your life. John’s protective intervening father/ big brother mode is particularly misjudged, albeit well-intentioned.

To be fair in her mind, her brother is dead. That's a lot for anyone to take in.

Don’t I remember Crichton being really pissed off that Aeryn knocked him out to get him to a planet without an argument? And yet he just did the same thing to poor Pip! Seems a tad hypocritical.

You are right. I think John is hypocritical at time. Maybe that is why Aeryn stopped him.

As SQ mentions, I do like the set-up of John and Aeryn as the ‘parental unit’. Family Ties actually kind of started that at the beginning of the season didn’t it? The two of them tried to get ‘Talyn some guidance’.

I still say siblings and I will fight SQ to the death on this issue. Talyn is a whole different issue since he is a baby.

They haven’t got the hang of it yet though. And interestingly, it’s Crichton’s determination that he knows best that blocks them working as a team for much of the episode.

Sometimes John is stuck in Earth thinking and doesn't want to consider other viewpoints.

As I mentioned in an earlier review (when he was going to fly the both of them into a wormhole without knowing where it would take them or if they could get back) Crichton’s ‘look before you leap’ trait of taking unilateral decisions without considering Aeryn is one of the major sticking points in their relationship throughout the series.

Its most apparent with wormholes because he is obsessed

Aeryn is guarded emotionally. But John guards against outside influences on his autonomy. I think in a relationship these two things are pretty much one and the same. Both end with you dismissing or failing to let in the person who could help you.

And often the relationship doesn't last if you are both guarded. But we all know what changes.

All in all, the whole story feels a bit ‘Star Trek’. There’s a 60’s episode where they beam down to a society of children who die when they reach puberty. But of course, Kirk etc. saved them all in the end. At least, with Farscape you know it’s not a given that the crew of Moya will make things better…

To be fair in the 1960s, the thought of our heroes not helping would have made the audience disgusted. Gene Roddenberry did a lot of new things that were unheard on Star Trek but their are limits.

Psst! SQ (and continuing the theme of parental guidance)…you realise that jel and FH are gone ‘till Monday?*jumps on all the beds/ raids fridge for ice cream*

I said Sunday. Now who is buying me some more ice cream?

@Blue - LOL *jumps on all the beds and eats all the snacks*
I hadn't thought to compare the bit where Aeryn knocked John out early on to get him where she wanted him...pretty much against his will...good eye! But I wouldn't go so far as to consider her being hypocritical (since John was acting more as a stubborn adult at that point and not a 'shroom eating suicidal teen)....so I think there was a bit of a difference in those two situations. It was clear that Chi needed to work through this, but again she needed intervention and John knew that he just wasn't sure how to do it.

Motivations don't really matter. Its actions that make hypocrisy.

I remember that Star Trek ep too and I agree to a point at the Star Trek feel maybe visually, but I think the ep offers so much more in the character development department than 1960's Trek could.

Which is indicative of 60s TV. Their wasn't really character development back then

@Jel - I know you don't want to admit that John is crazy but.... I say all this lack of compassion you describe and his out of character-ness is because he is going frelling crazy dude!

That is largely irrevelvent. In S4 when their is no doubt that John is insane, we see him risk his life to help out his friend

So, if you don't believe me because well you often don't want to admit that I'm right so you take the devil's advocate against what I say.... take it from the Companion's Edition. I decided to break mine out. I lost the one I had for Season one But I have all the others and I wish I would've got s2 out sooner. I love the little insights they give there. I am going to transcribe a paragraph from that book here regarding John's progressive craziness:

I don't disagree that he going crazy. That is how he was written. What I say at this point the writers hadn't decided to make him go more insane because of Scorpy so any feeling of insanity is coincidental. Do you understand the difference.

I would go on but my fingers are getting tired of typing. It seems that Browder has been the one who really wants the continuity of his character to be closely minded (no pun intended) so it was his choice to play John slightly more crazy now.

Also, There was a nice little paragraph about Gigi being a previous circus performer or something and she really enjoyed those stunts and the big jump as well as the leap we saw her do toward D'Argo in the previous ep where she had to wear a wire to do that, she loved it and this ep was especially thrilling for her. So I think they tried to write an ep that allowed Gigi to use some of her training and skills in a way that fit the story and I guess this is what they decided to come up with. While I will admit the story is a bit trite I think it works well to give us a Chiana centric ep and allows the other characters to evolve as well.

It explains a lot of why she is always arched and why Chiana often is seen as very agile. The actor can actually makes the moves. I don't see how jumping off a cliff has much to do with Gigi though. In reality is was probably just 2 feet with cushions
To Be Continued

[jelgate]

Part 3

Crackers Don’t Matter

A really cracking episode (badum-tish); definitely in my top five. And as about on the edge as I think Farscape could go. I know I’ve mentioned this before, but on original broadcast 11 year old me was watching this in a 6:45pm timeslot with tea and cheesy-pasta.

Farscape can go way edgier. Eat Me *shivers*

From a vidding point of view, there’s a lot of useful footage. There’s shots here of a type you won’t find anywhere else; the little laughing Scorpy heads for example. If you want shots of Crichton very obviously deranged (and let’s face it, who doesn’t), this is the episode for you, as the later neural chip insanity is more subtle.

I love Harvey in a Hawaian shirt. Its so weird and makes no sense

And the camera doesn’t stop moving, even more so than usual. It sways to create this disorientation effect.

I defer to your knowledge in this instance

I love the introduction of ‘Harvey’ (even if the audience/Crichton/writers don’t quite know it yet). That bit where Scorpius’s hologram solidifies and steps out is so creepy! Like that bit in The Ring where the little girl crawls out of the television.

I never found him creepy in this episode. Just hilarious and a means to drive John crazy. Because lets face it everyone is nuts in this episode. Except maybe Zhaan.

Plot wise it’s a very simple episode. It’s underwritten, but in a good way. Everyone goes nuts. But, boy do they really go nuts, as about as far as network TV heroes can do I think.

I mentioned this point in my review because I did read yours before posting. This episode doesn't do much but have fun of the characters gone nuts. Its also one of Farscape's most known episodes

There are two scenes that disturbed me. First, D’Argo assaulting Rygel with the crackers. Second, Crichton getting very close to raping Chiana.

I was never bother about the Rygel thing because it seems a common reaction given they are nuts

I think the latter one is made worse by the fact that it isn’t actually John who stops himself. It’s the neural clone. I suppose if you’re viewing or writing Scorpius as a hallucination for this episode, then it is some aspect of Crichton that pushes itself to the surface, so it sort of makes it better.

Sometimes I am too desensatisied. Its doesn't bother me because I know its a TV show. They aren't going to let John go that far. Unless its Game of Thrones of course. I think the neural clone is two folded. Your analysis makes sense as the time since the neural clone hadn't been though of yet. But when you retcon this episode for the use of it protecting John, its an aspect of self-preservation. Harvey probably knows it won't be good for him if John kills one of his friends. Think of the terrible things you would do if you killed your friend while high

But when you watch ‘Crackers don’t matter’ knowing about Harvey… it does beg the question of what John, the hero, would have done if the chip had not stopped him.

We just have to look at how far Aeryn or D'Argo go in attacking their friends. They aren't really that different in this episode

Similarly, it’s interesting that it’s the villain who steps in. Given Scorpius’s backstory and family history, I wonder if it’s a little bit of Scorpy's personality (morality even) coming out through the clone there?! Or he could just be trying to stop Crichton getting distracted as he claims.

The neural clone originally is Scorpious. You can see how Harvey has that cold logic of Scorpy. As time goes on, he changes as a result of losing control and living in John's head

For me, it’s the fact that these darker elements are set against the funny and downright stupid that gives Farscape it's unique tone. Crichton cold bloodily skewers T’raltixx, but does so looking like an idiot and iced in vomit. Scorpius is creepy, but he’s dressed in an Hawaiian shirt. All of Moya crew are scary and believably homicidal, but they are trying to kill each other over crackers.

I love nomad John. They are really only homicidal in this episode. Generally they don't kill each other. They are often crazy. Probably because of being chased by the Peacekeepers

Crackers Don't Matter

This ep of course is just straight up crazy What's not to love? I've always sort of had some issue with them trusting this guy (Trailmixx) But seriously, as soon as they were just starting to go a bit loopy they should've turned Moya around. I think they were just in denial because no one wanted to admit they were a "lesser species" Talk about Trailmixx putting the major mind game on them.

I think its kind of a repeat of DNA Mad Scientist. We saw something so benefical that we turned off our skepticism. Maybe they had already gone too crazy to turn around

This is by far John's trippiest ep I think as Blue mentioned in terms of camera movement and disorientation focusing trick. This is probably going to be my shortest review yet....yes it will too jel because Blue did a fantastic job and I may rather transcribe more from my Companion Edition.

Anything to keep you from rambling

But about the John crazy with respect to Scorpy my take on it when Scorpy just stepped out of the holograph message was that was all John's making in his own mind. Obviously it wasn't the premiere of the nueral clone Scorpy because he was mainly speaking in terms of what John would understand making reference to things (Marguaritas and Pizza) which are strictly Earth references, Scorpy would have no knowledge of such things. Most everything that Head Scorpy talked to John about had some basis to Earth either directly or indirectly. That is what made this incarnation of Scorpy so different. He was all basically a figment of John's Crazy imagination.

In the span of this episode you are right. But later when they enter Harvery they retcon that he was trying to project a crazy imagination as to not let John comprehend he is in his head. Harvey does have access to his memory after all

I agree with Blue about the two disturbing scenes. I remember hearing an interview by Gigi recalling that playing that near rape scene with Ben was very emotionally scary for her as he was so into character it was very real.

I prefer it be real. If it creeps Gigi out good as it should creep us out, which was the point of that scene

Here are some bits found in the Companion Edition:


So it seems that John pretty much deviated from the script as he was supposed to be angry with Chiana and go at her sort of like he did with Aeryn. But instead Ben during shooting changed it to the almost rape. I think it works because it certainly makes you realize he has absolutely lost it. And I think it makes a nice contrast to the other bickering and fighting going on with everyone else. It shows a whole different side of creepy crazy that John was capable of.

Add libing at its finest? It makes it different. John acts different to every character he takes down. I thought it was perfect because of the whore perception Chiana presents. Note I said perception.

All in all I loved this ep!

Who doesn't love this episode?

I know! It’s Tuesday here now and I was wondering where y’all were. It was getting to the point where I half expected to stumble across SQ’s corpse surrounded by cracker crumbs. Still no sign of FH though….*eyes Jel suspiciously*

If I am honest I watched both episodes Sunday morning. I waited to allow you to go first on reviewing so you don't have to say again, jel and SQ covered all the good points. FH said she would be doing 4 episodes really close because she is on a vacation

Yeah, I didn’t think John was any less crazy… everyone else managed not to actually shoot one another. Even Aeryn, which is a big deal for her. And yet D’Argo’s lying on the floor bleeding ‘cause supposedly ‘saner’ Crichton shot him.

Its not for a lack of trying. Aeryn did try to shoot John

I think you can watch it either way which is kind of nice. It can be John-made Scorpius, which makes sense given the pop culture reference you mention.

Or it can be neural clone. When Harvey-proper shows up in ‘Won’t Get Fooled Again’, he tells Crichton about the chip. I think John says, “That explains why I’ve been seeing you’ and Scorpius says yes… (or something like that, it’s been a while since I’ve seen it). That could be Crackers he’s referring too.

Either way works. But I agree, it being a John-creation says better things about Crichton's character.

I think that is a big reason why they retcon the whole thing. To put up an explanation for Harvey. It doesn't make sense why he would show up in Fooled but not Crackers. And then their is his appearance in Princess which is the first official instance of insane John

@Blue - haha ....It was last week you would've stumbled over me fat arse corpse

Its hard to miss

But about the Head vs Neural Clone Scorpy I agree it could go either way but to me it just really stood out in this ep as a complete Head Scorpy because of all the Earth References. But I will have to watch out for that discussion you mentioned in 'Won't Get Fooled Again'. Sadly my Companion Guide doesn't give any mention to the Scorpy bit.

He was in John's mind. And Harvery does make Earth references

[squirrely1]

Commenting of all of these took forever but it was fun

But we bicker all the time.

Only some of the times? Everyone treats their posts as their opinions. Even in the bickering threads. Also all of our reviews are going to be biased to our own viewpoints. Like you with your shipping. Blue with her editing. Me with me non-John/Aeryn characters. Not sure what FH's bias is but I know from our Stargate bickering she has some (4th law).
*removes the sonic net*
It won't be the first or last time. Again S3

*get out the barf bucket*
I'm not going to even comment on the OTP. Its more of a big brother/sister role. It was about grieving and John and Aeryn are older. One of the things about being older is that we have seen more death. John and Aeryn's role was being the older ones was to help Chiana process the lose of her real brother. I don't see the two acting as parents. It felt more like they were acting as older siblings helping someone out. I think it referenced when Chiana doesn't call John her brother

More with their various roles difference. Aeryn has experienced loss more being military while John had the standard sheltered life. Its part of John nature to want to help his friends. John can't see any of his friends die no matter what.
You seem to have gone all in what this crazy theory. Not just child. If my friend is being dumb and stupid. I once tied a guy to a tree, but that is another story. Their is a balance of how far you let a grieving person go. In the real world you probably wouldn't let them jump off a cliff.

It seemed stupid and out of character for John to eat the mushroom. The society seemed equally stupid to me. I understand they are children but it seemed crazy they want to die young. I want to live forever. *put barf bucket away*
We'll meet again old friend.
I'm convinced the curse was Zhaan's doing. It didn't happen until she did her chant

You have made a classic mistake. I don't hate ships. I hate when they because front and center and dominate a show. Love is human nature so it would be wrong to not have it featured but when everything is shipping it get nauseating. We are not here yet on Farscape. Its only you who thinks everything is shipping Reminds me of how in SG1 every look between jack and sam was proof of the relationship to shippers
Well he did admit he was taking it apart to learn how it works
Talking about Foley again?

I can kind of see your point here of how John was preoccupied but I thought it was a little strange for John to not see Chiana is hurting

Agreed

I just wanted to set the record straight. I didn't say you hated ships I said you hated 'shipping' I think that is the difference. Additionally, I don't think you are being entirely fair to me. I do comment on alot more things than just the shipping bits in this show. That is why recently I've really tried to pull back on my own personal opinions and comments and just wanted to transcribe some of what I find interesting in the Companion books. That way you can't complain and say that all I'm doing is shipping and seeing things that aren't there. Also for the record the John and Aeryn relationship was a very important part of this story, it would be remiss in watching this series ignoring that fact or trying to say things aren't there when in fact they are there. I think because I am a shipper I can see them easier because I am looking for them, where as you and others may say they see nothing because again you aren't looking for them or trying to ignore them as evidenced by your "barf bucket".

I really do try to give all relationships on this show their due. Like the part where John and Aeryn playing the parent role to Chiana (in the companion book they actually talk about that and confirm that!) I didn't mean it that Aeryn and John were acting like Chi was their own daughter I was just saying they were each irrespective of their relationship to each other taking on a parent role with Chiana. I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying John and Aeryn are acting like the married couple here with their daughter Chi....no they were acting on behalf of their friend and they were each playing out a sort of parent role to help her. Plus in turn I think this helps to solidify the boundaries for John's relationship with Chiana. I really think they felt they needed to do that in the show so it wouldn't damage the John/Aeryn ship and again I applaud them for that, because so many shows today try to lead everyone on and anything goes with any pairing and it makes me sick. Just so you can see that the John and Aeryn relationship was very important to the show runners I found this interview. Here is the link to the entire inty if interested:
http://www.bullz-eye.com/television/...ian_henson.htm

BE: To talk about passion, with the whole will they / won’t they relationship between Crichton and Aeryn, were there lengthy discussions about how long you were going to make that last or not last?

BH: Well, yes, and again, this was very important to Rockne. At the time we were developing “Farscape,” nobody was putting central romances in anything on television. Everybody had said, “You can’t do it, it doesn’t work, and people are bored by it,” so shows were…everybody’s always attracted to each other, but if they have a one-night stand, they’re going to have a reason why they can’t talk to each other. There was really an anti-romance sort of movement. And this probably happened later in the development, the idea that Aeryn and Crichton should be, like, the biggest romance ever, and make it the strongest and most delicious romance ever, and to do it at a time when nobody was trying to do that. Now, I… (Starts to laugh) …I’m not entirely sure if it was done the way Rockne would… (Trails off) Well, anyway, we decided that the best way to do that was to keep pulling them apart, and not to just allow them to get deeper and deeper together, and not to allow them to date and then get married and develop their relationship to another level and be stable. We thought, “No, no, no, it needs to be absolutely not in question that they both love each other more than anything, but we’ve got to keep pulling them apart, and we’ve got to keep finding reasons why they can never just love each other.” And that was fun. But, really, it was done to make sure they stayed in love.

as proof by this article they actually set out to make the John and Aeryn romance epic and they decided to do it in such a way they wanted there to be no doubt they were in love, but things kept getting in the way for them. So I think that solidifying John and Chiana's relationship into a sort of Brother/sister or Parent/child type relationship in this ep was important so we didn't have another crazy ass 'triangle' aka quadrangle of doom on our hands *shudders* I would think you'd be glad by that as you'd have needed a much larger barf bucket if they would've allowed that dren to happen.

[jelgate]

I just wanted to set the record straight. I didn't say you hated ships I said you hated 'shipping' I think that is the difference. Additionally, I don't think you are being entirely fair to me. I do comment on alot more things than just the shipping bits in this show. That is why recently I've really tried to pull back on my own personal opinions and comments and just wanted to transcribe some of what I find interesting in the Companion books. That way you can't complain and say that all I'm doing is shipping and seeing things that aren't there. Also for the record the John and Aeryn relationship was a very important part of this story, it would be remiss in watching this series ignoring that fact or trying to say things aren't there when in fact they are there. I think because I am a shipper I can see them easier because I am looking for them, where as you and others may say they see nothing because again you aren't looking for them or trying to ignore them as evidenced by your "barf bucket".

The difference for me is not everything is shipping. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar as I am channeling Freud. I don't even hate John/Aeryn. As I have told you over the years my dislike is the overuse not the existence of the ship. I fully admit I exaggerate your shipping love to tease you. I don't want it to cause to express your opinion less. That's not fair for me to do to you if my teasing is causing you to express your opinion. Don't get me wrong the actor's opinion is interesting. But you shouldn't sidestep you opinions because of me. Fight back. I can take it No one is denying the importance of John/Aeryn, but I still stand by my opinion it was overuse. I believe in giving all characters and relationships room to flourish which I don't think happened. Some character got very little room (*cough* Pilot) to grow. John/Aeryn isn't the only reason but its a factor. My rebuttal is that shippers of any show look for things that aren't there to try to justify their relationship. I admit with cannon relationships its easier to justify. Let me give you an example. Jack/Daniel slashers (You do know what a slash is?) often say the bickering and arguing Jack and Daniel do because of their different ideologies is proof of the slash. People who support a relationship will look for any scene to support their pairing. I don't doubt that a lot of scenes are in support of John/Aeryn but a lot of them is just a scene

I really do try to give all relationships on this show their due. Like the part where John and Aeryn playing the parent role to Chiana (in the companion book they actually talk about that and confirm that!) I didn't mean it that Aeryn and John were acting like Chi was their own daughter I was just saying they were each irrespective of their relationship to each other taking on a parent role with Chiana. I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying John and Aeryn are acting like the married couple here with their daughter Chi....no they were acting on behalf of their friend and they were each playing out a sort of parent role to help her. Plus in turn I think this helps to solidify the boundaries for John's relationship with Chiana. I really think they felt they needed to do that in the show so it wouldn't damage the John/Aeryn ship and again I applaud them for that, because so many shows today try to lead everyone on and anything goes with any pairing and it makes me sick. Just so you can see that the John and Aeryn relationship was very important to the show runners I found this interview. Here is the link to the entire inty if interested: [ url]http://www.bullz-eye.com/television/interviews/2009/brian_henson.htm[/url]

You do give all a look. Again I was just teasing like we do. We are probably more spiliting hair with the parent versus sibling paradigm. I take John sees Chiana more of a little sister than a daughter. The advice and way he tries to help Chiana sounds more like someone to mentor that an adult to child relationship. I agree with the rest of this paragraph for reasons I mentioned above

as proof by this article they actually set out to make the John and Aeryn romance epic and they decided to do it in such a way they wanted there to be no doubt they were in love, but things kept getting in the way for them. So I think that solidifying John and Chiana's relationship into a sort of Brother/sister or Parent/child type relationship in this ep was important so we didn't have another crazy ass 'triangle' aka quadrangle of doom on our hands *shudders* I would think you'd be glad by that as you'd have needed a much larger barf bucket if they would've allowed that dren to happen.

Their is nothing here I disagree with

[squirrely1]

@Jel - Don't worry I will fight back I just didn't want this thread to digress into a brawling match over petty little things like squabbles over shipping. Of course (as you mention) we all watch for things that interest us and I will admit that I did find things or elaborate on things that weren't necessarily there because I wanted them to be there. I have done this and maybe still do it to some degree but I'm trying to not really do that here as much because I know you are so sensitive to it and possibly others are as well. And yes of course I know what slash is LOL did you forget that Slash fic I wrote about Cam/Daniel I think ...geeze that was years ago I don't even know where that is now Anyway....I admit I really reached as I was a member over on the Cam/Vala thread (yeah go ahead and laugh all you want ) cuz I was pretty much channeling the awesome Ben/Claudia chemistry I saw in their scenes during SG1. It's funny after you watch Farscape and then re-watch the seasons with them in SG1.... at least for me I saw some undercurrent going on with them. It was subtle but there. But that was my wild crazy arse shipping hallucinations coming out and I try not to do that too much now but it's fun sometimes just to drive people crazy.

[Bluemeany]

@Jel - Don't worry I will fight back I just didn't want this thread to digress into a brawling match over petty little things like squabbles over shipping. Of course (as you mention) we all watch for things that interest us and I will admit that I did find things or elaborate on things that weren't necessarily there because I wanted them to be there. I have done this and maybe still do it to some degree but I'm trying to not really do that here as much because I know you are so sensitive to it and possibly others are as well. And yes of course I know what slash is LOL did you forget that Slash fic I wrote about Cam/Daniel I think ...geeze that was years ago I don't even know where that is now Anyway....I admit I really reached as I was a member over on the Cam/Vala thread (yeah go ahead and laugh all you want ) cuz I was pretty much channeling the awesome Ben/Claudia chemistry I saw in their scenes during SG1. It's funny after you watch Farscape and then re-watch the seasons with them in SG1.... at least for me I saw some undercurrent going on with them. It was subtle but there. But that was my wild crazy arse shipping hallucinations coming out and I try not to do that too much now but it's fun sometimes just to drive people crazy.

As a Fargater, ( I think that was the word jel used earlier in the thread) I only watched the last two seasons of Stargate as a pseudo-Farscape fix after finishing PK wars. It's impossible for me not to see Cam/Vala as operating in their own little world sometimes.

Mitchell sometimes snaps at Vala or tells her to shut up. She goes out of her way to annoy him. Basically, they just argue much better than they should do. But don't seem to be worried about offending one another.

And they get in each others personal space much earlier than you would with someone you've just met: they shove past each other, or feed each other cake without asking.

There is something there. Like with old school friends, siblings or people you used to live with. Or an amicably divorced couple, twenty years down the line from when they split up.

At some point in the past there was a shared experience when you got to know each other really well. Or at least, got to know the people you were then. You get where the other person is coming from, because you were literally there.

Obviously, Cam and Vala can't be that. They're introduced to each other on screen. But it jars because they're sort of...domestic...for want of a better word.

And it irritates the hell of out me. Because I think that sort of chemistry is actually harder to get between actors and in scripts than sexual tension or romantic love. And, often it's a damn sight more interesting, deeper and complex.

If you've got it there naturally why, as writers, wouldn't you use it? It can be platonic, Vala and Daniel can still happen.

[squirrely1]

@Blue - About the Cam/Vala aka Ben/Claudia on screen chemistry. There was an inty early on by either Ben or the Gate producers (I forget) but they said they actually didn't want to turn SG into a sort of Farscape Redux with the whole Cam/Vala situation so they purposefully kept them apart and wrote scripts to make them fight or carry on in opposition. it actually drove Ben crazy too because he felt like they were sort of forcing him to dampen things down. Especially Ben he said he was constantly being scolded by the SG writers and directors to not "go out of the lines" with regard to what they wanted him to say and do and for Ben that was really hard to do after coming off Farscape where he pretty much had alot of creative license with his role. I mean if Ben had issue with something on Farscape he just more or less changed things (within reason) by how he would approach the scene or put little nuances in there that the writers didn't think about or ask for. In SG they more or less forbid him to do anything like that.
Well I think he still did it defiantely when he could. There are looks and glances that are there!! I have screen caps!! HAHA I definitely could see the underpinning there with Cam/Vala and TBH I was never down with the whole Vala/Daniel ship....that seemed forced to me.

[Bluemeany]

@Blue - About the Cam/Vala aka Ben/Claudia on screen chemistry. There was an inty early on by either Ben or the Gate producers (I forget) but they said they actually didn't want to turn SG into a sort of Farscape Redux with the whole Cam/Vala situation so they purposefully kept them apart and wrote scripts to make them fight or carry on in opposition. it actually drove Ben crazy too because he felt like they were sort of forcing him to dampen things down. Especially Ben he said he was constantly being scolded by the SG writers and directors to not "go out of the lines" with regard to what they wanted him to say and do and for Ben that was really hard to do after coming off Farscape where he pretty much had alot of creative license with his role. I mean if Ben had issue with something on Farscape he just more or less changed things (within reason) by how he would approach the scene or put little nuances in there that the writers didn't think about or ask for. In SG they more or less forbid him to do anything like that.
Well I think he still did it defiantely when he could. There are looks and glances that are there!! I have screen caps!! HAHA I definitely could see the underpinning there with Cam/Vala and TBH I was never down with the whole Vala/Daniel ship....that seemed forced to me.

Oh right! I didn’t know that. I don’t get it. Why would you hire actors and then not let them interpret lines in interesting and surprising ways? That’s the point of them.

I think the fact that the writers resorted to physically cuffing Vala/Daniel together for three or four episodes was a massive red flag.

When you have to think of a physical plot device why they can’t leave one another, rather than having an emotional reason or connection… yeah, I think that’s a bad sign.

On a completely unrelated note, I’m off on my summer holidays early tomorrow morning for the next two weeks, Wheeeeeeee….!

I’m not sure how reliable/existent the internet will be where we’re going, so I’ll try and log in for the reviews, but don’t wait up for me.

[squirrely1]

Oh right! I didn’t know that. I don’t get it. Why would you hire actors and then not let them interpret lines in interesting and surprising ways? That’s the point of them.

I think the fact that the writers resorted to physically cuffing Vala/Daniel together for three or four episodes was a massive red flag.

When you have to think of a physical plot device why they can’t leave one another, rather than having an emotional reason or connection… yeah, I think that’s a bad sign.

On a completely unrelated note, I’m off on my summer holidays early tomorrow morning for the next two weeks, Wheeeeeeee….!

I’m not sure how reliable/existent the internet will be where we’re going, so I’ll try and log in for the reviews, but don’t wait up for me.

Yes I agree...totally bad sign and red flags. The way the SG team wrote Cam/Vala was so frustrating.

YAY!! Have fun on your holidays! Check in when you can.

[jelgate]

Because their was no Cam/Vala. Its like a old friend of mine who slashed Teal'c/Hammond. This is Stargate SG1-1 not Farscape 2.0. They are completely different characters. Vala is about as different from Aeryn as humanly possible. Mitchell is even different. The concept of ad libbing is dependent on the kind of story your telling. The wackiness and crazyiness of Farscape warrents the use of adding in crazy lines. Stargate is more serious than Farscape ever was. The whole cuff thing was to keep Vala in the show for her time being. Being a galactic thief she wouldn't stay around unless forced. To be frank blue, you are going to be confused by a lot of things if you only watch the last two seasons

[squirrely1]

Because their was no Cam/Vala. Its like a old friend of mine who slashed Teal'c/Hammond. This is Stargate SG1-1 not Farscape 2.0. They are completely different characters. Vala is about as different from Aeryn as humanly possible. Mitchell is even different. The concept of ad libbing is dependent on the kind of story your telling. The wackiness and crazyiness of Farscape warrents the use of adding in crazy lines. Stargate is more serious than Farscape ever was. The whole cuff thing was to keep Vala in the show for her time being. Being a galactic thief she wouldn't stay around unless forced. To be frank blue, you are going to be confused by a lot of things if you only watch the last two seasons

I think what Blue and I are saying (correct me if I'm wrong Blue) Is that we know they are different characters and that they didn't want a Farscape 2.0 and it's a different show, different premise all that. But it's sorta silly to waste that incredible chemistry between Ben/Claudia and while I would'n't have wanted to see them be a couple on SG1 (that would've been really weird) maybe they could've allowed a little leeway with their interaction (maybe a bit more playful) or something and didn't get so paranoid to prevent them from having scenes together. And it's not just about keeping to the script, it's about not even allowing any nuances with respect to looks or emoting, etc. There's more to acting than just saying your lines. I think they had to work hard to really watch when Ben/Claudia were even in the same scene because their chemistry at times overshadowed what was happening. ...although we FINALLY did get Momento Mori

Spoiler:

[squirrely1]

The Way We Weren't
Wow such a great story in this ep but I suspect I love it for different reasons than jel.

We get Pilot's backstory and Aeryn conveniently tied in. At first it was a bit jarring to try to wrap my head around how Aeryn could've been a part of such a horrendous act and then conveniently not remember it was Moya and the new pilot. I am going to go with the fact that she was so locked into her role as a PK and taught not to question or even care really that she sort of just pushed that back. I know that Brian Henson has said that he's proud of how these characters are written because they are all flawed and they screw up alot. I think that is what makes them so real and why we can relate to them so well. As John even reminds everyone that they all had things in their past they are embarrassed about. I loved that bit as it is a reminder that these characters do mess up and they are growing and trying to be better.
Speaking of which the line Velorek used when he spoke it to Aeryn "you can be more" was the same line John said to her upon their first meeting. I think to some degree John may have reminded Aeryn of Velorek initially perhaps? I loved the blocking they did when John and Aeryn had their "come to Jesus" talk on the PK carpet. The symbols really show a symbolic metaphor of that PK Wedge that is still between them and is largely the reason why Aeryn is the way she is, slow to trust and get on with this loving thing. But notice that they are on the smaller part of the wedge so it is getting smaller.

So yeah yeah yeah... jel it getting out his barf bucket now....but I just have to get this shippy stuff out of the way then I'll get onto Pilot.
So again I think it was really crucial to breaking down the walls for Aeryn to look back on this no matter how painful it was. And her scenes with Pilot were equally amazing to the ones she had with John. I think this ep shows an amazing range of Claudia's abilities as an actor. Such range in this ep for her.

The do love the pilot bits and how interesting it was to learn about his bonding process and when Velorek visited him on his homeworld that was just so cool! I wish we could've seen more. The forced bonding idea was something else that really was inventive and sad that Pilot had to endure and live with so much pain. Really makes you feel for Pilot as a character and just how far he has come. I thought it was a bit of a stretch with how angry he was at Aeryn and then he just more or less dropped it by the end.?? It seemed a tad too drastic a recovery. But maybe his anger was diverted onto Aeryn because she was the catalyst that brought back the painful memories and it was the guilt that Pilot had that made him want to sever the forced connection. I guess he realized his love and goal to want to see the stars at that time trumped anything that was in his way including the old Pilot. I think he finally realized he was a pawn in the plan and felt such remorse for it. Once the connection was cut then he could open his eyes and realize the full scope and begin to heal like Aeryn. Sometimes you do have to hurt before healing can begin. So this was a really important event for all of them.

I did want to transcribe some bits about this ep from my Companion Book:

"Naren Shankar had the idea of going back and doing Pilot's backstory and tying Aeryn in," David Kemper recalls. "He was fascinated by her, and wanted to do an Aeryn show as his first one. We told him it would be tough. It was a brutal exercise for Naren. He had to do many drafts to get to where it had to go. Then we did some staff work on it in the form of Rockne, but Naren laid all the groundwork. It turned out to be practically everybody's favourite episode, and that credit goes right back to Naren's original idea."

(BLUE will like this) For the flashback sequences, Tilse used a film processing technique called bleach bypass. "When a film is developed, the silver on the film is exposed," he explains. "The film is beached and most of the silver's washed off, but a certain amount is left on and it affects the film in a slightly organic way. It gave the set a grungy kind of look when Moya was dominated by the Peacekeepers. I wanted her to look like a ship that had been seconded to the military."
Dave Elsey had to create a much younger Pilot in somewhat less time than the nine months the original puppet took to make. "We had to adapt what we already had," He says. "We decided that the way to sell it to the viewer was to have his carapace much smaller, so there was a visible difference in the way he looked. I also suggested that they should tweak Pilot's colours up in post-production, so he looked much more vibrant and younger. For his lower half, we had a spare body, which we turned upside down and stuck underneath Pilot's body. All we had to do was paint it and build a bunch of mechanical legs."

Unsurprisingly, this was Lani Tupu's favourite episode of the season. The moment when Crais first really notices Aeryn is one that Tupu had had in mind ever since the premiere: "Crais bursts in and sees Velorek and Aeryn. He sends Velorek out, then he looks back. I played it as 'you're a very interesting, dedicated officer. I'll keep an eye on you.'" The story also allowed Tupu to show another side of Pilot. "He actually makes a decision about being on the ship. The scene with Velorek on the planet is one of my favourite scenes of the whole series."

All in all a great ep with loads of pain and backstory to help our characters work through their grief and become better for it.

I'll shut up now

[jelgate]

The Way We Weren't

SQ calls it a shipping episode. I suppose since it talks a little about Pilot and Aeryn's past their is an argument for that. I don't notice it to be honest. Mostly because I don't care. I actually use this episode a lot of times of why I am against the ship. Its not that I am anti-ship (despite what you may believe SQ) but I find we have such a rich tapestry of unique characters. We could spend so much time on exploring the uniqueness of the characters and their backstory. This is the only Pilot episode where we learn about him and still he splits it with Aeryn. I let that slide because I think its a good lesson in explaining Aeryn. I however can't slide that some characters get so little insight and development. Okay rant over that I am sure SQ and blue are going to pick apart.

I love this episode because it gives us Pilot's backstory and explains more about him. The first time I watched Farscape, Pilot was my favorite character. He is so unique and different than anything we ever saw on science fiction television. I loved the use of the recordings to show how Pilot was part of an experiment on Moya to force a Pilot to bond. I for one never knew he was in pain so it was interesting. I also liked seeing his planet and showing how Pilots are chosen to be bonded to a Levithian. I just love the wealth of information we get on the species and this specific Pilot. I know I said I would end the rant but its sad we never got an episode again that explores Pilot. As for Aeryn, this is probably a crucial step for her. It allows for some interspection on who she was before and who she is now. The Aeryn in that recording is not the Aeryn we know now. I have said multiple times that Aeryn's arc is seeing how terrible the Peacekeepers are and growing to become some better. Yes I know John said that in the pilot. To me that is the whole point of Aeryn's story here in the flashbacks. I could go in detail but I feel like being succinct. The story of Aeryn is this episode is about Aeryn and her interaction with the Peacekeeper I'm calling V since I can't spell his name correctly. Aeryn really doesn't see Pilot in the flashbacks and really the only reason she is at ends with Pilot is because she killed the first Pilot. The flashbacks for Aeryn are really about her interaction with V and how she thinks she loved him. I feel like that is the demons Aeryn is fighting is how she cared for V and in the end how Aeryn betrayed him out of duty and what she wanted. This is prove a counterpoint to Aeryn now would never do such a thing. Everyone treats her like garbage and Aeryn takes it because she now know how wrong blind duty is. Although I find it crazy how much Zhaan and D'Argo treat her. I can understand greedy Rygel and the grief Pilot is experiencing. Surely the other two should have realized what little choice Aeryn had. Chiana explained it best when she asked, what do you think Aeryn was doing with the Peacekeepers? I really liked how the whole episode in the present has two meanings. They seem simplistic in the end. The whole emo Aeryn of leaving when Pilot threatened her is because of her betrayal while Pilot's anger is how he felt he had betrayed Moya. Its seems so easy of why they are fighting but yet its multilayered that we don't really understand the hostility until the end. Finally I love the little tie into the shield D'Argo broke. It kind of wraps everything together and firmly answers the whole mystery of Talyn's conception. I also love the contrast of how much contempt the Crais in flashbacks has for Aeryn

[squirrely1]

The Way We Weren't

SQ calls it a shipping episode. I suppose since it talks a little about Pilot and Aeryn's past their is an argument for that. I don't notice it to be honest. Mostly because I don't care. I actually use this episode a lot of times of why I am against the ship. Its not that I am anti-ship (despite what you may believe SQ) but I find we have such a rich tapestry of unique characters. We could spend so much time on exploring the uniqueness of the characters and their backstory. This is the only Pilot episode where we learn about him and still he splits it with Aeryn. I let that slide because I think its a good lesson in explaining Aeryn. I however can't slide that some characters get so little insight and development. Okay rant over that I am sure SQ and blue are going to pick apart.

Yes, yes we are Nah.... I think you did a great job of describing Aeryn's arc below. Now if you could just do it without ranting then we'd be good. Jel says I have my shipping glasses, well jel has his ranting hat!
And so.....with respect to Pilot and Aeryn splitting this ep, be glad David Kemper and others told Naren to keep revising because he wanted this to be a complete Aeryn story.

I love this episode because it gives us Pilot's backstory and explains more about him. The first time I watched Farscape, Pilot was my favorite character. He is so unique and different than anything we ever saw on science fiction television. I loved the use of the recordings to show how Pilot was part of an experiment on Moya to force a Pilot to bond. I for one never knew he was in pain so it was interesting. I also liked seeing his planet and showing how Pilots are chosen to be bonded to a Levithian. I just love the wealth of information we get on the species and this specific Pilot. I know I said I would end the rant but its sad we never got an episode again that explores Pilot.

I also loved that we got the Pilot bits and the planet. And to your point of having all these rich characters and not exploring them more. I agree, I loved Farscape and the characters and would've enjoyed alot more in depth, but to be fair they had limited funds and were all the time levying for more money and had to move shooting locations to save money , etc etc and at the end of the day they had a story to tell. And like it or not (we've disagreed on this before) this series was mainly written from John's perspective. He's the main protagonist in this story. Yes he has his cast of friends who are very important too, but ultimately the focus is on John and his journey and his fight to get back home and then his own internal struggles as he realizes going home is not an option. Also, like it or not, Aeryn was very important to him. So it is natural that John and Aeryn get alot of the screen time and alot of the attention. I think with all that said, they did a great job at breaking up the screen time so everyone got developed and that proof of how we love all the characters.
*Takes off jel's ranty hat*

As for Aeryn, this is probably a crucial step for her. It allows for some interspection on who she was before and who she is now. The Aeryn in that recording is not the Aeryn we know now. I have said multiple times that Aeryn's arc is seeing how terrible the Peacekeepers are and growing to become some better. Yes I know John said that in the pilot. To me that is the whole point of Aeryn's story here in the flashbacks. I could go in detail but I feel like being succinct. The story of Aeryn is this episode is about Aeryn and her interaction with the Peacekeeper I'm calling V since I can't spell his name correctly. Aeryn really doesn't see Pilot in the flashbacks and really the only reason she is at ends with Pilot is because she killed the first Pilot. The flashbacks for Aeryn are really about her interaction with V and how she thinks she loved him. I feel like that is the demons Aeryn is fighting is how she cared for V and in the end how Aeryn betrayed him out of duty and what she wanted. This is prove a counterpoint to Aeryn now would never do such a thing. Everyone treats her like garbage and Aeryn takes it because she now know how wrong blind duty is. Although I find it crazy how much Zhaan and D'Argo treat her. I can understand greedy Rygel and the grief Pilot is experiencing. Surely the other two should have realized what little choice Aeryn had. Chiana explained it best when she asked, what do you think Aeryn was doing with the Peacekeepers? I really liked how the whole episode in the present has two meanings. They seem simplistic in the end. The whole emo Aeryn of leaving when Pilot threatened her is because of her betrayal while Pilot's anger is how he felt he had betrayed Moya. Its seems so easy of why they are fighting but yet its multilayered that we don't really understand the hostility until the end. Finally I love the little tie into the shield D'Argo broke. It kind of wraps everything together and firmly answers the whole mystery of Talyn's conception. I also love the contrast of how much contempt the Crais in flashbacks has for Aeryn

Yes Agreed! I can't argue with any of this and quite impressed that you spent so much of your time discussing Aeryn.